The Expat Paradox: An Appraisal of Westerners in Thailand

[NanLaew]

On 7/16/2025 at 4:51 PM, novacova said:

My wife is a total and complete racist, she can’t stand Chinese, she loathes them along with Cambodians, Burmese and others. Personally can’t care less because it’s none of my business.

 

She's a nationalist, not racist. When she gets around to loathing or hating you, then and only then can we revisit the argument.

[angryguy]

On 7/16/2025 at 1:47 PM, kwilco said:

Western expats often arrive in Thailand with a suitcase full of grievances about their home countries. “It’s gone downhill,” they say. “Too woke, too expensive, full of immigrants.”

Yes its true, but as long as trump is in charge the US is still better than here in too many ways

[blaze master]

39 minutes ago, kwilco said:

so you have nothing to contribute to the discussion? sounds as if it's all beyond your ken... hance the pardox of expats to realise they aren't as clever as their Thai neighbours.

 

And you making dumb accusations is considered what ?  Hance forth you should go play in traffic.

 

[GarryP]

On 7/16/2025 at 11:41 PM, TedG said:

 

 

Roads, Rules & Arrogance

 

The roads are chaotic in Thailand. There is no denying this aspect of Thailand. Thailand has the highest rate of traffic deaths in Southeast Asia at 25.4/100,000. The EU has a rate of 4.6/100,000, while the USA has a rate of 12.2/100,000. Have you ever tried to cross the street in Thailand? 

 

Language & Cultural Illiteracy

 

I can't read Thai, and don't have any issues having my GF do it for me.  

 

Democracy? They Don’t Get It

 

Why do you feel that a military government is democary, yet people voting for Trump or Brexit is not? 

Think you should try crossing the street in Cairo. Makes Thailand look like a piece of cake. 

[kwilco]

On 7/16/2025 at 5:41 PM, TedG said:

The roads are chaotic in Thailand. There is no denying this aspect of Thailand. T

THis is incorrect - if you were an "old hand" or understood the country you would also understand Thai traffic. as said there's the paradox - "They sneer at Thai drivers, mock the roads, and complain about “chaos.” Meanwhile, they ride motorcycles without licences, flout traffic laws they’ve never bothered to learn, and assume they’re superior simply because they’ve held a UK or EU driver’s licence since 1989. Many can’t even parallel park a motorbike, let alone navigate Thai roads responsibly."

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, blaze master said:

 

And you making dumb accusations is considered what ?  Hance forth you should go play in traffic.

 

You see, if you don't agree or see yourself in my posts, this makes you feel angry - however you are unable to reply so resort to ad hom - all this only confirms my orignal post

[blaze master]

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You see, if you don't agree or see yourself in my posts, this makes you feel angry - however you are unable to reply so resort to ad hom - all this only confirms my orignal post

 

If you say so. Nice deflection. 

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, blaze master said:

 

If you say so. Nice deflection. 

so what do you think I'm defecting from??? I'm responding to your infantile posts. all ytyou are doing is confirming the paradoxes I outlined with an alarming predictability.

[TedG]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

THis is incorrect - if you were an "old hand" or understood the country you would also understand Thai traffic. as said there's the paradox - "They sneer at Thai drivers, mock the roads, and complain about “chaos.” Meanwhile, they ride motorcycles without licences, flout traffic laws they’ve never bothered to learn, and assume they’re superior simply because they’ve held a UK or EU driver’s licence since 1989. Many can’t even parallel park a motorbike, let alone navigate Thai roads responsibly."

The high accdent rate speaks for itself.  

[kwilco]

15 minutes ago, TedG said:

The high accdent rate speaks for itself.  

amd there you have it - it most certainly doesn't - you are just using one road safey statistic and deliberately misinterpreting it to confirm your prejudice. - "never bothered to learn, and assume they’re superior simply because they’ve held a UK or EU driver’s licence since 1989. Many can’t even parallel park a motorbike, let alone navigate Thai roads responsibly"

[blaze master]

11 minutes ago, kwilco said:

so what do you think I'm defecting from??? I'm responding to your infantile posts. all ytyou are doing is confirming the paradoxes I outlined with an alarming predictability.

 

You made jaded assumptions about a poster. I called you out. Now go away before you dig deeper holes.

[TedG]

8 minutes ago, kwilco said:

amd there you have it - it most certainly doesn't - you are just using one roa safey statistic and deliberately misinterpreting it to confirm your prejudice.

Yes, the death per 100,000 data is misinterpreting the truth. 

[kwilco]

12 minutes ago, TedG said:

Yes, the death per 100,000 data is misinterpreting the truth. 

You're being VERY naive - sounds like you haven't got any idea on how to use statistics - how do you relate that to "chaos" and how in turn do you compare that with the USA?

[TedG]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

You're being VERY naive - sounds like you haven't got any idea on how to use statistics - how do you relate that to "chaos" and how in turn do you compare that with the USA?

It seems to me that you dislike any data that disputes your narrative. Can you provide a better metric?  

[TedG]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You're being VERY naive - sounds like you haven't got any idea on how to use statistics - how do you relate that to "chaos" and how in turn do you compare that with the USA?

 

[TedG]

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You're being VERY naive - sounds like you haven't got any idea on how to use statistics - how do you relate that to "chaos" and how in turn do you compare that with the USA?

If you bothered to read posts in this thread, I posted the rates for the USA, the EU, and Thailand. 

[kwilco]

14 minutes ago, TedG said:

It seems to me that you dislike any data that disputes your narrative. Can you provide a better metric?  

yes I can!

 

Your posts are a perfect example of the Expat Paradox:
Declare Thailand’s roads “chaotic,” quote a single stat out of context, then ignore everything that challenges your view — all while assuming you're the authority.

Yes, Thailand has a high road death rate per 100,000 people — this does not equate to chaos - more you personal driving abilities.
But 75% of those are motorcycle-related, and most involve riders with no helmet, no licence, and no insurance.

Also worth noting:
Many U.S. states have equal or higher fatality rates. Do you call their roads chaotic?

You’ve chosen to ignore more meaningful data:

• Deaths per 10 billion vehicle-km

• Deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles

• Serious/minor injuries per capita

• Vehicle ownership per 1,000 people

Using just one raw stat to justify a sweeping conclusion isn't insight — it’s confirmation bias.

And let’s be honest: a lot of expats complaining about Thai roads are riding around unlicensed, untrained, and clueless about Thai traffic laws — yet still convinced of their superiority.

That's not analysis. That’s exactly the kind of arrogance the Expat Paradox describes.

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, TedG said:

If you bothered to read posts in this thread, I posted the rates for the USA, the EU, and Thailand. 

..and that just shows how little you understand them. posting stats you don't understand is not an argument.

[TedG]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

..and that just shows how little you understand them. posting stats you don't understand is not an argument.

Please explain why you feel the stats are meaningless. 

[TedG]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

yes I can!

 

Your posts are a perfect example of the Expat Paradox:
Declare Thailand’s roads “chaotic,” quote a single stat out of context, then ignore everything that challenges your view — all while assuming you're the authority.

Yes, Thailand has a high road death rate per 100,000 people — this does not equate to chaos - more you personal driving abilities.
But 75% of those are motorcycle-related, and most involve riders with no helmet, no licence, and no insurance.

Also worth noting:
Many U.S. states have equal or higher fatality rates. Do you call their roads chaotic?

You’ve chosen to ignore more meaningful data:

• Deaths per 10 billion vehicle-km

• Deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles

• Serious/minor injuries per capita

• Vehicle ownership per 1,000 people

Using just one raw stat to justify a sweeping conclusion isn't insight — it’s confirmation bias.

And let’s be honest: a lot of expats complaining about Thai roads are riding around unlicensed, untrained, and clueless about Thai traffic laws — yet still convinced of their superiority.

That's not analysis. That’s exactly the kind of arrogance the Expat Paradox describes.

You are free to find and post these stats. 

[TedG]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

yes I can!

 

Your posts are a perfect example of the Expat Paradox:
Declare Thailand’s roads “chaotic,” 

The roads are chaotic.

[kwilco]

3 minutes ago, TedG said:

You are free to find and post these stats. 

you are now reduced to sealioning yet you don't even give you own citations . again this is not an argument.

THe generally accepted stats of deaths per 100k pop is around 22k.

as said 75 to 80% are motorcyclists

In reality in a 40 wheeled vehicle you are LERSS likely to die than in the USA - however some States in the USA have road deaths per 100k similar to or even greater than THailand and this is mostly 4-wheeld vehicles - would you call that "chaos"

You view ofroad safety is based on your personal (anecdotal) perception and you cherry pick stats in isolation in the misconception you are having an argument - you are not, you are just gainsaying bcaise of you own cognitive dissonance. THis agian shows the workings of the expat paradox perfectly.  totally in contradiction the reality

[TedG]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

you are now reduced to sealioning yet you don't even give you own citations . again this is not an argument.

THe generally accepted stats of deaths per 100k pop is around 22k.

as said 75 to 80% are motorcyclists

In reality in a 40 wheeled vehicle you are LERSS likely to die than in the USA - however some States in the USA have road deaths per 100k similar to or even greater than THailand and this is mostly 4-wheeld vehicles - would you call that "chaos"

You view ofroad safety is based on your personal (anecdotal) perception and you cherry pick stats in isolation in the misconception you are having an argument - you are not, you are just gainsaying bcaise of you own cognitive dissonance. THis agian shows the workings of the expat paradox perfectly.  totally in contradiction the reality

Again, you are free to find and post some relevant states.  Put up or shut up. 

[TedG]

31 minutes ago, kwilco said:

yes I can!

 

Your posts are a perfect example of the Expat Paradox:
Declare Thailand’s roads “chaotic,” quote a single stat out of context, then ignore everything that challenges your view — all while assuming you're the authority.

Yes, Thailand has a high road death rate per 100,000 people — this does not equate to chaos - more you personal driving abilities.
But 75% of those are motorcycle-related, and most involve riders with no helmet, no licence, and no insurance.

Also worth noting:
Many U.S. states have equal or higher fatality rates. Do you call their roads chaotic?

You’ve chosen to ignore more meaningful data:

• Deaths per 10 billion vehicle-km

• Deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles

• Serious/minor injuries per capita

• Vehicle ownership per 1,000 people

Using just one raw stat to justify a sweeping conclusion isn't insight — it’s confirmation bias.

And let’s be honest: a lot of expats complaining about Thai roads are riding around unlicensed, untrained, and clueless about Thai traffic laws — yet still convinced of their superiority.

That's not analysis. That’s exactly the kind of arrogance the Expat Paradox describes.

 

The top table is Thailand.  The bottom table is the OECD.

[TedG]

33 minutes ago, kwilco said:

yes I can!

 

Your posts are a perfect example of the Expat Paradox:
Declare Thailand’s roads “chaotic,” quote a single stat out of context, then ignore everything that challenges your view — all while assuming you're the authority.

Yes, Thailand has a high road death rate per 100,000 people — this does not equate to chaos - more you personal driving abilities.
But 75% of those are motorcycle-related, and most involve riders with no helmet, no licence, and no insurance.

Also worth noting:
Many U.S. states have equal or higher fatality rates. Do you call their roads chaotic?

You’ve chosen to ignore more meaningful data:

• Deaths per 10 billion vehicle-km

• Deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles

• Serious/minor injuries per capita

• Vehicle ownership per 1,000 people

Using just one raw stat to justify a sweeping conclusion isn't insight — it’s confirmation bias.

And let’s be honest: a lot of expats complaining about Thai roads are riding around unlicensed, untrained, and clueless about Thai traffic laws — yet still convinced of their superiority.

That's not analysis. That’s exactly the kind of arrogance the Expat Paradox describes.

 

[kwilco]

17 minutes ago, TedG said:

 

 Your efforts ar pretty hopeless - in fact you aren't even using th right stats or revealing their sources. this is totally meaningless - but  the saddest part is you don'r even know

 

I've prepared a reading list for you - come back in about 10 years when you've got up to speed - in the meantime hold on to that paradox.

[kwilco]

35 minutes ago, TedG said:

 

The top table is Thailand.  The bottom table is the OECD.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's your reading list .... come back in about 10 years when you might know what you are talking about...

 

 

Road safety reading list references and citations
"Carriages without horses shall go,
and accidents fill the world with woe."
-Mother Shipton (circa. 1530)
Some of the organizations include…
·      The World Health Organization (WHO)  - https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/thailand/roadsafety/overview-en-final-25-7-19.pdf?sfvrsn=f9d7a862_2
·      Save the children Thailand - https://thailand.savethechildren.net/sites/thailand.savethechildren.net/files/library/Save the Children’s Work in Road Safety - The 7% Project_1.pdf
·      ThaiRoads Foundation - http://www.thairoads.org/en/
·      International Road Assessment Program (iRAP) and Chulalongkorn University - https://irap.org/2018/11/new-thai-centre-of-excellence-chulalongkorn-university/
·      The Embassy of Sweden is coordinating a group called “the Embassy Friends of Road Safety (EFRS) - https://scandasia.com/tag/the-embassy-friends-of-road-safety-efrs/
·      Thailand Road Safety Observatory, TRSO -=http://www.atransociety.com/resources/pdf/pdfResearch2013-2018/2014/Project2014-006(Dr.Paramet).pdf
·      Arrive Alive - Association of Southeast Asian Nations Regional Road Safety Strategy and Action Plan (2005–2010) - https://www.adb.org/publications/arrive-alive-asean-regional-road-safety-and-action-plan-2005-2010
·      ASEAN TRANSPORT STRATEGIC PLAN 2016-2025 - https://www.itf-oecd.org/asean-transport-strategic-plan-2016-2025-and-progress-road-safety-initiatives
·      EU/ASEAN - https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/eu-and-asean-exchange-knowledge-and-best-practices-road-safety_en
·      Australia, Safe System Solutions  - https://www.austrade.gov.au/news/success-stories/australian-consultancy-helps-improve-road-safety-in-thailand
·      Bloomberg Philanthropies Initiative for Global Road Safety - https://www.bloomberg.org/public-health/improving-road-safety/
·      Office of Transport & Traffic Policy & Planning(OTP), Ministry of Transport - https://www.mot.go.th/about.html?dsfm_lang=EN&id=12
·      Thai RSC. - Accident road safety Data for Thailand - http://www.thairsc.com/eng/
·      World Bank - https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2019/03/26/working-towards-improving-road-safety-and-saving-lives-in-thailand
Key Thai Govt Departments
·       the Royal Thai Police,
·       Ministry of Education,
·       the Departments of Highways,
·       Rural Roads and Land Transport under the Ministry of Transport,
·       the Department of Disease Control under the Ministry of Public Health,
·       the National Institute for Emergency Medicine, and
·       the Road Accident Victims Protection Company.

WHO - Global Status Report on Road Safety: Summary  there are.  Several of these running from about 2005 to 2023/4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_road_deaths
PDF - https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240086517
The World Health Organization (WHO)  - https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/thailand/roadsafety/overview-en-final-25-7-19.pdf?sfvrsn=f9d7a862_2
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Global_status_report_on_road_safety_2023/kaIOEQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA1&printsec=frontcover
https://www.roadcraft.co.uk
https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/downloads
https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/roadaccidents.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
https://www.nationthailand.com/in-focus/30202066

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/foreign-office-launches-road-safety-campaign-for-driving-abroad
https://michelinmedia.com/c6/katie-couric-best-advice-i-ever-got/
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Death-by-road-user-categorize_fig4_325871293
- https://www.thaiwebsites.com/caraccidents.as
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Golden-hour-in-a-car-accident_fig2_224185142?__cf_chl_tk=La..XXvZbhb2IorbJ32ngPStRL5r3EH0gH91KjJ0uFY-1753196902-1.0.1.1-Zr28Zje0Zmti6aYmO30xhQ6RKVD4QSqJlLCyYqFgmCE
TDRI - https://tdri.or.th/en/2020/11/road-accidents-biggest-health-crisis/
https://roadsafety.piarc.org/en/road-safety-management-safety-data/crash-data-system
https://roadsafety.piarc.org/en/road-safety-management-safety-data/crash-data-system
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/23/george-carlin-was-right-other-drivers-are-idiots-and-maniacs.html

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents - Safe System - Road Safety Factsheet
https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30404778

Dunning-Kruger effect,  .. a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

Active safety features are designed to prevent collisions and accidents from happening. Passive safety features, meanwhile, are meant to mitigate the damage of a collision that is unavoidable.      
https://www.toyotaoflancaster.com/blog/active-safety-features-vs-passive-safety-features/
https://carbiketech.com/active-safety-passive-safety/
-  International Transport Forum (2008). "Towards Zero, Ambitious Road Safety Targets and the Safe System Approach". OECD. Archived from the original on 15 May 2008. Retrieved 26 January 2012. It recognises that prevention efforts notwithstanding, road users will remain fallible and crashes will occur.
  http://www.towardszerofoundation.org/thesafesystem/

  The Road Safety Statement 2019 – Dept Transport - UK
Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

Phuang Malai - https://www.hope-rehab-center-thailand.com/blog/hope-stories/phuang-malai-thai-flower-garland/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phahonyothin_Road
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittraphap_Road
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhumvit_Road
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phet_Kasem_Road
  Dr Adarsh Batra · Program Director I Assistant Professor in Hospitality and Tourism 
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loy_Krathong
  https://www.bangkokriver.com/place/bangkok-canals/

https://gam-legalalliance.com/services/immigration/drivers-license-in-thailand/
https://motogirlthailand.com/riding-thailand/
  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/thailand-roads-deadly-traffic-accidents-class-inequality-a9071696.html
http://thailand.angloinfo.com/transp...ving-licences/
1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic - https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11
 the Thai “highway code dated 1979, Section 71 (500B)]
The Road Traffic Act B.E. 2522 (1979), also known as the Road Traffic Act, B.E. 2522
https://www.royalthaipolice.go.th/downloads/laws/laws_03_05-07.pdf

[kwilco]

43 minutes ago, TedG said:

Again, you are free to find and post some relevant states.  Put up or shut up. 

  

Enough with the sealioning.
You're not genuinely interested in information — you're just asking endless "gotcha" questions to mask the fact that you came in with assumptions, got challenged, and now can't deal with being exposed as ill-informed.
This isn't curiosity. It's deflection.
If you actually cared about the road safety stats, you could’ve looked them up yourself. Quietly. Properly. But your lazy cut-and-paste approach shows you don’t even know the difference between searching and researching — let alone how to read statistics in context.
Frankly, when it comes to road safety, you're in flat-earther territory — clinging to one shaky number while ignoring the bigger picture. That’s not scepticism. That’s denial.
So no — I'm not playing this game. Try Google, try humility, and try engaging in good faith. Until then, don’t expect serious replies to unserious tactics.

[TedG]

8 minutes ago, kwilco said:

  

Enough with the sealioning.
You're not genuinely interested in information — you're just asking endless "gotcha" questions to mask the fact that you came in with assumptions, got challenged, and now can't deal with being exposed as ill-informed.
This isn't curiosity. It's deflection.
If you actually cared about the road safety stats, you could’ve looked them up yourself. Quietly. Properly. But your lazy cut-and-paste approach shows you don’t even know the difference between searching and researching — let alone how to read statistics in context.
Frankly, when it comes to road safety, you're in flat-earther territory — clinging to one shaky number while ignoring the bigger picture. That’s not scepticism. That’s denial.
So no — I'm not playing this game. Try Google, try humility, and try engaging in good faith. Until then, don’t expect serious replies to unserious tactics.

I’m posting stats to compare counties.  You have nothing. 

 

I accept your surrender on this topic. 

[TedG]

15 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 Your efforts ar pretty hopeless - in fact you aren't even using th right stats or revealing their sources. this is totally meaningless - but  the saddest part is you don'r even know

 

I've prepared a reading list for you - come back in about 10 years when you've got up to speed - in the meantime hold on to that paradox.

I accept your surrender.