Brainwashed Or Friendless - Which Is Better ?

[WaiWai]

I live in Bangkok, basically, the best schools in Thailand, and the biggest choice.

In walking distance from my house is a very good private school, with an excellent English program. And i can afford it.

But nationalism/patriotism is part of the curriculum, and the military style scout training. I recently had a conversation with a Thai teacher from that school about it. She was as opposed to it as i am, but there is nothing she can do about it.

Having some conversations with ten year olds about the perception of their own country is a sobering experience, being a combined product of the Thai education system, and their parents who went through the same ridiculous education system.

But trying to give a child a different perspective, especially at such a young age, will make him the odd one out. Now what is more damaging - having a product of nationalist brainwashing at home, or a kid that won't have many friends?

ColPyat wrote this in another thread. I think it's an excellent question & a difficult dilemma. What do others think about this ?

I think ColPyat is implying the latter is worse and I guess I'd tend to agree, but it's undoubtedly a case of "the lesser of two evils".

I recently had a conversation with a Thai teacher from that school about it. She was as opposed to it as i am, but there is nothing she can do about it.

Could this mean it's more a matter of going through the motions than believing ? Or at least, an indication that your child would not, in fact, be the odd one out ?

Some of you may also have some practical advice to offer him.

Edited August 12, 2007 by WaiWai

[ColPyat]

I think ColPyat is implying the latter is worse and I guess I'd tend to agree, but it's undoubtedly a case of "the lesser of two evils".

I don't know, and that is a big dilemma i will have to face in a few years time.

It may be an easy answer for people who see no fault with patriotism/nationalism, but i want that my child can choose for himself which philosophy he will adapt when he is ready to without having nationalism put into his brain by the education system.

[Robski]

Or having your child turn against you and report you for 'thought crimes', right? Or dismiss you as being inferior?

That's how extreme nationalism works, idolise youth and create a schizm between generations and between loyalties.

Isn't that really your greatest fear? Not that your child may become friendless, but that mentally you may lose your son altogether.

Thai education isn't worth a toss outside of Thailand anyway, I think it would be better to send him to a private school (? at least a school whose priority is education rather than indoctrination)

At least you could (both) choose the extra curricular activities that he is involved in.

Edited August 12, 2007 by Robski

[WaiWai]

I think ColPyat is implying the latter is worse and I guess I'd tend to agree, but it's undoubtedly a case of "the lesser of two evils".

I don't know, and that is a big dilemma i will have to face in a few years time.

It may be an easy answer for people who see no fault with patriotism/nationalism, but i want that my child can choose for himself which philosophy he will adapt when he is ready to without having nationalism put into his brain by the education system.

Yes, indeed. I see it as important too, for a whole range of reasons. However, I think he will be able to see for himself when he is older - many do. You don't have to explicitly counter the nationalism, just consistently encourage him to question and think for himself. I wonder how problematic the latter might be in a Thai school, though ?

[ColPyat]

I wonder how problematic the latter might be in a Thai school, though ?

Given Robski's post - this is a bit of a problem here.

[ColPyat]

Or having your child turn against you and report you for 'thought crimes', right? Or dismiss you as being inferior?

That's how extreme nationalism works, idolise youth and create a schizm between generations and between loyalties.

Isn't that really your greatest fear? Not that your child may become friendless, but that mentally you may lose your son altogether.

Thai education isn't worth a toss outside of Thailand anyway, I think it would be better to send him to a privatle school.

at least you could (both) choose the extra curricular activities that he is involved in.

Yeps, much of what you say is on my mind right now.

[WaiWai]

What about your wife and other family members ? What is their attitude to these things (just ignore if that is too personal). As Robski says, this stuff is insidious and could get caught up in family dynamics.

I guess Thailand must somehow move more into the modern world, by reason of sheer inevitability ? One good thing to think about is the huge & increasing number of "luk kreung" kids (of all kinds, not just Thai) around these days. This helps de-nationalise the world to some degree. These kids will all bring different perspectives & will likely be your kid's peer group. You can do alot to make sure your kid is surrounded by different influences. Do what you can to balance your kid's life : expose him to many different people, activities etc. I think what is of prime importance is you being a good Dad, in every way you can.

Why doesn't anyone start a good independent school in BKK ? There must be many people who'd love to send their kids to one.

Edited August 12, 2007 by WaiWai

[lannarebirth]

I don't see it as being much different than attending a parochial school which is operated by a faith different than your own. Personally, I attended a parochial school which was of my baptised faith, and still, not a bit of it sunk in. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Give the child some balanced views at home. It's all good as far as gaining perspective on the society you live in. Just imagine how few of us have had that opportunity.

[qwertz]

My daughter never settled into the good school I sent her to.

She only settled down after I moved her to the local state school where she was among her friends again.

She turned out fine despite my failed efforts to give her the best education.

[WaiWai]

Lannarebirth, I was thinking about that same situation. I attended Christian schools, though neither I nor my family were/are Christian. However, there was no pressure or proselytization, and I quite enjoyed many of the "Religious Instruction" teachers; often interesting characters who provoked good philosophical discussions. I did reportedly come home one day wanting to go to Sunday school like my best friend (my parents wouldn't let me ), I sometimes enjoyed the quiet and beauty of the chapel at the start of the day, and I still know the words to many hymns , some lovely and some not, but mostly the religious aspect left me untouched.

From what I understand about the Thai system, it's not comparable . However, I see what you mean - it could be an early lesson in finding how to be yourself and, at the same time, "fit in". Kids are often much smarter than we think, but they are also very vulnerable, and I think ColPyat is right to be concerned.

Edited August 12, 2007 by WaiWai

[ColPyat]

What about your wife and other family members ? What is their attitude to these things (just ignore if that is too personal). As Robski says, this stuff is insidious and could get caught up in family dynamics.

I guess Thailand must somehow move more into the modern world, by reason of sheer inevitability ? One good thing to think about is the huge & increasing number of "luk kreung" kids (of all kinds, not just Thai) around these days. This helps de-nationalise the world to some degree. These kids will all bring different perspectives & will likely be your kid's peer group. You can do alot to make sure your kid is surrounded by different influences. Do what you can to balance your kid's life : expose him to many different people, activities etc. I think what is of prime importance is you being a good Dad, in every way you can.

Why doesn't anyone start a good independent school in BKK ? There must be many people who'd love to send their kids to one.

Fortunately my wife has no time either for all that nationalist crap. As she has been in school only 3 years it's more instinctive for her than educational, but she does read political literature now, and has been in many foreign countries and has seen that things can and should be different.

And just to make things more clear, the little one is not look kueng, at least not western half. He's half Chinese. We never really wanted children, for that reason as well. His real mother is a relative who couldn't take care of him, never wanted him. He just ended up in our house when he was 10 months old because nobody wanted him, and after a while i knew we couldn't give him away anymore. We were the first people who really cared about him, and loved him. Now he's 2 1/2, and the biggest joy in our life.

Obviously there will also be headaches with the formal adoption in the future, but at least there is already an official record that he is in our care, and the birth mother has a new life, husband and another son, doesn't even live in Thailand anymore.

But of, course, until the adoption is through, we have to stay in Thailand, whatever happens.

10 years or so ago, i remember reading a lot about alternative schooling in Thailand. But as far as i can remember a lot of that was religiously and ideologically inspired, and didn't exactly prepare the kids for the modern competitive world.

[ColPyat]

I don't see it as being much different than attending a parochial school which is operated by a faith different than your own. Personally, I attended a parochial school which was of my baptised faith, and still, not a bit of it sunk in. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Give the child some balanced views at home. It's all good as far as gaining perspective on the society you live in. Just imagine how few of us have had that opportunity.

The only difference here is the legal situation and lack of choice.

[WaiWai]

So, your son is Thai-Chinese, being brought up by a Thai mum & Western dad ? Is biological mum from mainland China ?

Take him to Chinese classes on Saturday mornings and when he is older he can read Mao in the original .

He's going to be a wonderful person, I am sure. Great example of how national identity is getting blurred now.

[ColPyat]

So, your son is Thai-Chinese, being brought up by a Thai mum & Western dad ? Is biological mum from mainland China ?

Take him to Chinese classes on Saturday mornings and when he is older he can read Mao in the original .

He's going to be a wonderful person, I am sure. Great example of how national identity is getting blurred now.

Nops, natural Dad is Malay Chinese (as far as we know), natural mother a mix of Mon/Yuan/Thai. I'm western European, and the wife is Yuan with Thai citizenship.

[WaiWai]

Wow - isn't the modern world amazing ! You must sometimes wonder how on earth (!) you ended up with such a kid . He's lucky to have such a concerned dad, and I do really think that's what matters most.

Edited August 12, 2007 by WaiWai

[ColPyat]

Wow - isn't the modern world amazing ! You must sometimes wonder how on earth (!) you ended up with such a kid . He's lucky to have such a concerned dad, and I do really think that's what matters most.

I also wonder regularly how i ended up here in the first place...

Things were much easier when it was just the missus and me. Much easier to shut the negative aspect of Thailand out of our lives, but with a kid things are much more complex.

[billzant]

Brainwashing occurs in one form or another in all schools, here you are discussing one aspect of the nearby school system you don’t like. You spoke to a teacher at the school who was able to detach herself from the overriding ethos of the school. This also happens in many schools. Although you might not like the Thai nationalism, would it really harm your child? Suppose you tried to pre-empt the problem by trying to force the child to have your views, then you have created a conflict for the child that is difficult for her/him at a young age. Suppose the child comes home and says “Por, what do you think of Thai nationalism?”, isn’t that much better? In the end the child will know your views, and unless it is an issue for them will live with the different positions. With the child’s mixed background, trying to install a set of beliefs could well do more harm than good.

Hope you are keeping well,

All the Best

Bill Z

[JimsKnight]

I don't see a great problem with Nationalism for the kids, as long as its not over-bearing and racist.

Comparing the inherent lack of Nationalism at schools in the UK where the standard of education is crp and the kids have no respect for elders or the country I think overly worrying about Nationalism is a no-brainer.

Schools are there to make kids conformist, at least until they are older to figure stuff out for themselves. I agree with Thai schools being somewhat 'brainwashing'. I saw this in some countries on the continent where their version of WW1 was radically different to what 'ours' was.

It could be that it's here that something of the veiled racism towards farangs is fermented too...

[A_Traveller]

The maxim 'Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man' does spring to mind here. I have to say I could not conceive of subjecting a child to the Thai education system, if there were other options available. The damage it does, in my view, is effectively irreparable, even allowing for a dynamic loving home environment. Indeed the problems potentially created by the '..but miss my dad says..' or simply keeping those thoughts internalised can only be an additional pressure on a child's development.

Not a situation I envy anyone.

Regards

[canuckamuck]

I would leave Thailand before I would send a child into the Thai system. The ability to think for yourself, to adapt, and to have an understanding of logic, reality, and history, is the most vital thing you can give a child.

My kids will be home schooled with a western curriculum, as I have seen even the private schools are pathetic.

The choice isn’t about brainwashed or unpopular, it’s about a having a stagnant mind or a creative one. The benefits or damage will last a lifetime.

[t.s]

I would leave Thailand before I would send a child into the Thai system. The ability to think for yourself, to adapt, and to have an understanding of logic, reality, and history, is the most vital thing you can give a child.

My kids will be home schooled with a western curriculum, as I have seen even the private schools are pathetic.

The choice isn’t about brainwashed or unpopular, it’s about a having a stagnant mind or a creative one. The benefits or damage will last a lifetime.

i would hope my child would learn form me and have the ability to see both sides. that and having travelled beyond the LOS would ideally provide a wider perspective.

[lannarebirth]

I would leave Thailand before I would send a child into the Thai system. The ability to think for yourself, to adapt, and to have an understanding of logic, reality, and history, is the most vital thing you can give a child.

My kids will be home schooled with a western curriculum, as I have seen even the private schools are pathetic.

The choice isn't about brainwashed or unpopular, it's about a having a stagnant mind or a creative one. The benefits or damage will last a lifetime.

I can't disagree with that, but I was responding before on the OP's own perception of a nearby private school. He classified it as "very good", save for one aspect having to do with nationalistic indoctrination. My view is that specific hindrance can be overcome if the rest of the education the school provides is indeed "very good" .

[ColPyat]

The maxim 'Give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man' does spring to mind here. I have to say I could not conceive of subjecting a child to the Thai education system, if there were other options available. The damage it does, in my view, is effectively irreparable, even allowing for a dynamic loving home environment. Indeed the problems potentially created by the '..but miss my dad says..' or simply keeping those thoughts internalised can only be an additional pressure on a child's development.

Not a situation I envy anyone.

Regards

That is basically the point.

If a kid is 12 or so, then one can start teaching it the more complex realities of life. But as the brainwashing here starts already when they are 3 or 4 years old, and this is not an age when a responsible parent can possibly make a kid aware of certain contradictions.

[ColPyat]

Brainwashing occurs in one form or another in all schools, here you are discussing one aspect of the nearby school system you don’t like. You spoke to a teacher at the school who was able to detach herself from the overriding ethos of the school. This also happens in many schools. Although you might not like the Thai nationalism, would it really harm your child? Suppose you tried to pre-empt the problem by trying to force the child to have your views, then you have created a conflict for the child that is difficult for her/him at a young age. Suppose the child comes home and says “Por, what do you think of Thai nationalism?”, isn’t that much better? In the end the child will know your views, and unless it is an issue for them will live with the different positions. With the child’s mixed background, trying to install a set of beliefs could well do more harm than good.

Hope you are keeping well,

All the Best

Bill Z

The problem is, that i don't want my child being forced into any political way of thinking unless it is ready to. Which basically is, when it starts asking questions.

But here kids from the earliest age are filled with nationalist views. They have to join the boy scouts (this is not an option), even in private schools. They have to submit to the three pillar issue as the only valid Thai self identification at an age where they possibly cannot understand the full implications.

A tiny minority of Thais is able to freely discuss those issues. I found those in the lowest and the highest educational standards - the lowest because their schooling is just not sufficient enough to have undergone too much of forming of the mind by the powers that are, and the highest because they can attend universities and specific subjects where within that system there is open debate possible.

[ColPyat]

I would leave Thailand before I would send a child into the Thai system. The ability to think for yourself, to adapt, and to have an understanding of logic, reality, and history, is the most vital thing you can give a child.

My kids will be home schooled with a western curriculum, as I have seen even the private schools are pathetic.

The choice isn’t about brainwashed or unpopular, it’s about a having a stagnant mind or a creative one. The benefits or damage will last a lifetime.

In my case - leaving Thailand is for the foreseeable future is not an option, at least as long as the adoption issue is not resolved. And that is going to take years.

[November Rain]

What nationalistic brainwashing are you talking about? The love for the Royal Family? Because apart from that, my son, who goes to a Thai school hasn't come home with any nationalistic ideas. Yes, he stands up for the National Anthem when he hears it & sings along, but I certainly don't see that to be a bad thing.

My son does think for himself (sometimes even more than I'd like ), he does have an understanding of logic and as far as is possible at his age, reality. History, no - but that's not any fault of the school system, he just hasn't grasped the idea of chronology if it doesn't directly involve him, yet.

Where I live, there is no decent alternative (there is an international school, but it's not a good one), but I'm quite satisfied with my son's development, maturity, curiosity and ability to express himself on many ideas. I'm genuinely puzzled as to what exactly you're all alluding to.

[plachon]

This very issue has been one that has concerned me for several years, as we have a daughter approaching secondary school age, who has done the bulk of her primary schooling in Thailand (a semi-state run university "Demonstration" school). She has developed quite well over the last five years, learned a fair amount and has made good friends there (but not to the same degree she would have in a UK school I sense). But the religious-nationalist teaching is quite suspect in its lack of questioning of options, while much of the teaching is rote and lacks a personal understanding element i.e. "remember 2+2=4 and you won't go wrong".

Thus we made the decision some time ago to take her back to UK for secondary schooling, when the time came. We didn't want to send her to international school for a whole set of reasons which I won't go into here, and thought a Mathayom state school education woud not adequately prepare her for a possible Western University education, so the best option under the circumstances was a UK state school, warts and all. For all its faults, it's streaks ahead of its equivalent in Thailand in nearly all areas, although there are some instances where I think Thai schools are superior (e.g. long-term bonds with friends made at school).

Personally and on-balance I would rather stay in LOS and the wife feels much the same, but our daughter's future comes first.

Anyway, the time has now come and we go back to UK tomorrow, with the new school term starting in about three weeks time. Only time will tell if we have made the right decision..............

[ColPyat]

Personally and on-balance I would rather stay in LOS and the wife feels much the same, but our daughter's future comes first.

Anyway, the time has now come and we go back to UK tomorrow, with the new school term starting in about three weeks time. Only time will tell if we have made the right decision..............

Well, it seems that i am not the only one with this same problem, at least.

[ColPyat]

What nationalistic brainwashing are you talking about?

Well, some things should not be spelled out, for the sake of being able to continue the thread.

History though is an elementary problem here, and how it is interpreted in Thailand, taught in schools, and the very real dangers when one attempts to teach anything approaching real history, or even encourages questioning, which is integral part of development in education. A recent case is a perfect example, in the field of philosophy, here a link:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=115

and:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=116

[Xangsamhua]

I wouldn't worry too much about the attempts to instil a national ethos in schools. Kids generally are very resilient and are not going to lie down and accept everything they're told at school. Given Thailand's level of development as a nation state, let alone as a democracy or civil society, the government sees a need for the kind of thing the OP is objecting to. Developed nations don't need it (though national chauvinism is hardly unknown in places like France and the US), but Thai leaders think we do here.

It's not just Thailand. I think you'd find this kind of thing in other Asian countries as well. In Singapore, in addition to Civics they have something called "National Education", the aims of which are "To foster a sense of identity, pride and self-respect as Singaporeans; to know the Singapore story -- how Singapore succeeded against the odds to become a nation; to understand Singapore's unique challenges, constraints and vulnerabilities, which make us different from other countries; and to instill the core values of our way of life, and the will to prevail, that ensure our continued success and well-being." (Extracted from MOE web site).