Do Farang Want The Thai People To Remain Poor?

[englishoak]

Very awake and very sober, in twenty minutes my company is meeting officials regarding a major local contract we have just completed.

Best of luck and have a nice day then. I'm off to the golf course

[jackmuu]

Very awake and very sober, in twenty minutes my company is meeting officials regarding a major local contract we have just completed.

Best of luck and have a nice day then. I'm off to the golf course

Good comeback

[britmaveric]

I'd have to say most Thai(s) are not in good shape. Go out to the country side and you will see the standard of living. Most are poor and heavily in debt with no way out. Unfortunately this isnt going to change anytime soon.

[englishoak]

"Wages have NOT risen in line with inflation for the masses and The bht buys a lot less on the street than 5 years ago."

Can you provide proof to this statement.

Errr yes in fact .... All my Thai friends are feeling the pinch and most have not had a wage increase of any disernable amount.

Those that have thier own businesses are finding it harder to compete on price. That means cutting prices and restricting wage increases.

As for prices on the street I don't think I need to provide proof for you it IS all around. Ask any Thai the price of transport for one, or mabe food compared to 5 years previous.

Edited August 13, 2007 by englishoak

[jackmuu]

I'd have to say most Thai(s) are not in good shape. Go out to the country side and you will see the standard of living. Most are poor and heavily in debt with no way out. Unfortunately this isnt going to change anytime soon.

I think that a lot of debt here as in the West is self inflicted to a point, not all. For example in my wife's village most people have paid for their house and live a stable existence, certainly not poor. OK if you want to compare to the Bangkok Thais' they are poor but it is all relative, where they are most people in the moo maan do ok, certainly relatively speaking as well as my grandparents and some people I know back home, if anything thy have a less stressful lifestyle becaus of the lack of mortgage worries, bills etc.

I am talking about Sakhorn area.

[englishoak]

I'd have to say most Thai(s) are not in good shape. Go out to the country side and you will see the standard of living. Most are poor and heavily in debt with no way out. Unfortunately this isnt going to change anytime soon.

My point exactly BritM. Most seem to think the economy begins and ends in Bangers

[britmaveric]

Any money made certainly isnt trickling down to most people either, goes straight in the pockets of the rich/powerful. This is the way they like it.

I don't think much will change in my lifetime - it is what it is a Fking mess.

[jackmuu]

Any money made certainly isnt trickling down to most people either, goes straight in the pockets of the rich/powerful. This is the way they like it.

I don't think much will change in my lifetime - it is what it is a Fking mess.

Is there any country where that isn't the case?

[britmaveric]

Any money made certainly isnt trickling down to most people either, goes straight in the pockets of the rich/powerful. This is the way they like it.

I don't think much will change in my lifetime - it is what it is a Fking mess.

Is there any country where that isn't the case?

No, but far different in a first world country compared to a third world country.

[cdnvic]

Any money made certainly isnt trickling down to most people either, goes straight in the pockets of the rich/powerful. This is the way they like it.

I don't think much will change in my lifetime - it is what it is a Fking mess.

Is there any country where that isn't the case?

Countries with a large middle class.

[Ulysses G.]

Thailand is in its own category as far as the greedy rich go.

[englishoak]

Thailand is in its own category as far as the greedy rich go.

Ohh I don't know about that, I can think of plenty examples there. They may be good but certainly don't have a monopoly on that one !

[garro]

Price inflation does not mean that people are necessarily better off, in fact he it usually means the opposite.

[canuckamuck]

I want prices to stay low so I can do more, see more, and enjoy life. This is completely unrelated to how I feel about anybody.

Wishing for a low cost of living is natural and intelligent.

Wishing that people will improve their own personal circumstances is compassionate

These two things are not mutually exclusive

[technocracy]

Jim it seems like farang want to have it both ways. A friend once told me the same thing about Nepal. He said "nobody likes the idea of all the people in Nepal getting an internet connection and finding out about Britney Spears. They want them to remain a poor and magical land that they can come and visit a month out of the year to remember what life could be like, and then when the month is up they want to leave and go back to their own life style of the internet and Britney Spears. " It seems like he really nailed it to me.

Nail and head - springs to mind in this comment.

The other day on a thread about Suvanabhumi a user (mdeland if I remember) was saying 'Thailand used to be the hub of adventure tourists in asia and now they are complaining about toilet fitting etc in the airport' - which pretty much is summed up by the quote above.

People like to think they are off the beaten track and no other western people are doing what they are and that Asia should stay exactly like it was 20+ years ago - these kind of days disappeared many years ago but modernisation isn't something that happens overnight.

Here in Laos the country is a long way behind Thailand and nearly all other asian countries, I would love for people here to beable make money and prosper easier than they do but it will be a long time in coming. The biggest problem for a Laos is the fact that it has no ports, being landlocked always mean you need to rely on the neighbours.

The communist government here may of missed the bandwagon in opening up ala Vietnam but I have to say they aren't allowing Lao culture to be lost or over run by mass globalisation or modernisation. They are trying to maintain an eco friendly approach to most things and for that I can only applaud them, they are sticking by there guns and not just selling out to the almighty dollar. Before anyone tries to tell me what bad they've done etc I am fully aware that they aren't perfect but then again I don't know any government that is.

I personally love Laos the way it is I do admit however I am realist and know it won't be this way forever, although I dread the day I see a McDonalds or KFC opening in Vientiane!

Also personally I think the Thai Culture is eroding away particularly in Bangkok. I alway have a rue smile when I visit Bkk and see people walk past the temples erected near the shopping centres wai'ing and saying a quick prayer as they walk past. Long gone it seems are the days of people walking to there local temples at 6:30 in morning to attend the morning prayers. Just a quick prayer to almighty baht on the way to the office, pray'n'go Bangkok style.

Edited August 13, 2007 by technocracy

[Gary A]

Put me firmly in the camp that says the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Maybe it's not that noticeable in the cities but I live out in the boonies and see how much the poor farmers get for their crops. The Lumyai crop was selling for FIVE baht per kilo. You can hardly afford to pick it for that price. Sugar cane dropped from 1,150 baht per ton to 800 baht per ton. Whose fault is it that prices are going up but farmers are getting less for the crops? I don't have any answers but I can see the facts.

Uneducated farmers are the source of wealth for the huge agribusinesses. Farmer cooperatives are the only answer to counter that but it's never going to happen as long as the farmers remain uneducated. Are you aware that most families can only farm 10 rai (4 acres) because the work is mostly manual? Mechanical cane and large grain harvesters are sometimes sabotaged because they eliminate too many jobs. Maybe no one has the answers.

[jackmuu]

Another way of looking at it is that the world needs poor people too, if everyone was well off then who would do the farming and construction?

[sceadugenga]

I still contend that a strong Thai middle class is emerging. Sure I live in the north where the standard of living is higher but late last year I was in Isaan, and noted a number of housing estates between Udon and Nong Khai containing hundreds of new houses that I would estimate would sell for between 1 and 2 million baht apiece. Now these aren't the homes of the rich, they would belong to people who definitely fall into the middle class.

In my village there are many people on good incomes who prefer to live in the old style timber frame houses, the same as they prefer to sit on the floor and eat with their fingers. Even those on lower incomes (working class?) have children at university, my sister in law has educated two daughters who's incomes would both be around 25,000 baht a month.

However I agree with technocracy, I lived in Vientiane for a year and would hate to see the big golden M rear it's ugly head there, but it will come, as sure as death and taxes.

[Sanpatong]

The angle in the original post is the rising price level, but there's another angle that leads me to believe that some foreigners prefer Thailand to stay as poor as possible. ("Or else I'm going to Cambodia!", LOL, not. )

But anyway, in political discussions I often get the feeling that foreigners support obviously bad influences (the military/junta comes to mind) because it sets things back 15 years and will lead to unstable coalitions of multiple parties ("polictial parties" == gangs, triads around influentual regional mafia ) destroying the prosperity and economic progress that TRT brought. (Specifically Thaksin's CEO style leadership, there's lots to dislike about TRT otherwise but this is about the economy, stupid. )

Perhaps my belief in foreign residents / humanity is naively unrealistically high, but there's GOT to be another reason for people to remain staunch apologists for a military coup, and I sometimes suspect it's because they WANT Thailand to be the (economic/political) mess it was before.

[Ulysses G.]

However I agree with technocracy, I lived in Vientiane for a year and would hate to see the big golden M rear it's ugly head there, but it will come, as sure as death and taxes.

I remember when practically every expat in Chiang Mai used to pray for McDonalds, Pizza Hut, and KFC. We used to spend lots of time talking about it. Once we got them, all you hear is complaints.

How spoiled we are!

Edited August 13, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

The first McDonald's came to our neighborhood in 1960, and it was great. Then the copycats showed up and I've preferred BurgerKing since then. They are not all intrinsically evil. Thai soap operas, though- they are evil incarnate!!

[lazeeboy]

However I agree with technocracy, I lived in Vientiane for a year and would hate to see the big golden M rear it's ugly head there, but it will come, as sure as death and taxes.

I remember when practically every expat in Chiang Mai used to pray for McDonalds, Pizza Hut, and KFC. We used to spend lots of time talking about it. Once we got them, all you hear is complaints.

How spoiled we are!

same thing happened in samui had no fastfood chains ,everyone wanted them ,now got the lot and everyone moans how crap they are

[chevykanteve]

Why would "Farang" want the Thai people to remain poor? That question might well be re-directed to certain ethnic Chinese in Thailand, who (some feel) control the economy (et al) and benefit most from the cheap labour of the (non-ethnic Chinese) poor. I mention this only as a possible avenue for discussion on this topic line.

[Gary A]

I argue regularly with an ex-pat Brit who lives not far from me. He insists that the farmers were all better off a just a few years ago when they were all using buffalo for farming. None of them were in debt then. When I suggested an efficient sugar co-op he got all excited and angry. I told him that it costs a LOT of money to haul that cut cane 100 kilometers to a crushing mill. A crushing mill isn't that expensive to build and needs very little energy to run. I think it takes eight ton of cane to make a ton of sugar. He says that one cane harvester would put a hundred Thais out of work. Maybe he's right but I think small crushing plants near the crop would save a LOT of money,fuel and create more jobs even if they still cut cane by hand. Sugar used for ethanol doesn't require any special hygienic care. I'd bet that a new non hygienic sugar mill would encounter all sorts of permit and other problems.

[cdnvic]

I'd bet that a new non hygienic sugar mill would encounter all sorts of permit and other problems.

Because some unscrupulous persons would be selling it as food in the markets.

[Jingthing]

First of all, it doesn't matter what we want or think or make any difference, so this is more of a moral question.

So I will answer honestly.

I retired to Thailand after having observed it for 10 years. I came to the conclusion it is controlled by dueling power elites that comprise a tiny minority that seem to benefit from keeping the masses of their fellow Thais poor. I concluded that in the next 30 years (more than my expected life span), the overall country will not become very rich relative to countries like Singapore or Australia. As a retiree, this is indeed a positive thing as it means Thailand is an affordable place for a person from the west to retire to. You would have to be very wealthy indeed to retire in Australia as an expat. Not in Thailand, not now, and not 30 years from now. The visa rules may change but the relative disparity of cost levels is not likely to change that much. For example, the current retirement rules showing 65K baht per month. That requirement way exceeds the actual money needed to live here comfortably, especially if you own your housing. As far as wishing suffering or poverty on Thai people. Of course not. I am only observing. And higher prices hurt poor Thai people even more than most expats. The problem I think for expats is political stability rather than cost levels.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Jingthing

[nick2k]

do you think it is ok to steal from someone else to get money? like thailand is doing with the compulsory licenses.

it is stealing you know. pure and simple. stealing to get rich. ..yes, I have a problem with that.

[duratanium]

I have to admit that I was somewhat sickened and confused by the people complaining that Thailand is starting to get expensive. Yes, Thailand might e getting more expensive and the Thai people are doing better for themselves. More and more Thai people are purchasing their own home. Thailand's economy has done well these last couple of years and things are looking bright for the Thai people's future, but this seems to anger many of you. Do you instead wish the worst for Thai people because you want to remain in Thailand for cheap prices? Personally, I love the Thai people and I hope their economy grows quickly and I hope they continue to improve their standard of living. The rest of you should really take a good look in the mirror, the only thing that is special about you is that you won the birth lottery. So please excuse the Thailand having the nerve to experience economic growth.

I do not wish to see anyone impoverished and doubt many Farang do.

To ask us to take a good look in the mirror imparts that Thai wealth (or lack of it is down to us).

What about the Thai Banks??

A Thai family works like <deleted> to buy a house or a car or a motorcycle and they get hammered by the Banks interest rates of between 3 / 10 % a MONTH!! So they struggle longer and harder to try and improve their lot.

I do feel though, that Thais in general are happy with their lot in many ways than their counterparts in the West and maybe appreciate more those things they have like their mobile phone, washing machine, motorbike, cars etc.

[Bruce1]

Rising costs mean LOS can't compete on price so much with China (artificially low currency) or Vietnam, so businesses will have to cut the number of people employed to stand around doing nothing (go to any department store and look at them) but I can't see them willingly going back to the villages, after tasting middle class life.

Meanwhile, farmers gets screwed by middle men in every country, but you can expect the 49% employed in Thai agriculture to fall dramatically as farmers try to lower costs to win buyers. So the unemployed farm labourers will drift to the cities to compete with the unemployed shop assistants for the available jobs, not a happy scene.

The rising baht is not a uniquely Thai problem but is hitting the whole of Asia, according to today"s Post business section, so they'll all rise or fall more or less together.

Working smarter is a cliche, but it's the only answer really, like the Thai uni students who won the Microsoft competition this week, so the govt will have to spend more on raising educaitonal standards, including technical education.

None of the above situations are caused by foreigners, so the OP is rubbish. Blaming foreigners is just a lazy excuse for ignoring your home-grown problems.

The Thai economy needs major deregulation is almost all sectors, but at the moment the trend is going the other way towards greater regulation and managed business, so the economy will continue to stumble along. Don't believe it? Compare Japan's poor economic performance and refusal to deregulate because it might hurt vested interests with China's booming and much more deregulated economy.

I'll believe Thailand is getting serious about making ordinary people more prosperous when I see the current paternalism replaced by major deregulation of the finance and services sectors in particular.

[Solosiam]

do you think it is ok to steal from someone else to get money? like thailand is doing with the compulsory licenses.

it is stealing you know. pure and simple. stealing to get rich. ..yes, I have a problem with that.

Yes, much worse than letting millions of people die because you want to make more profit for your pharmaceutical company. Or should all the poor people simply die rather than have access to cheap drugs. This isn't movie or music pirating we are talking about here, it's people who will simply die unless they spend 5 times their yearly salary on drugs to stay alive.

If generics can be made at a profit, why can't the pharmaceutical company do the same and use discretionary pricing?