Paying Professionals...

[kayo]

I have to say, reading this thread so far, that I either have entirely missed the point, or, if I have not missed it, then the SIr Burr-inclined side of the debate has far more merits than Khall's. Particularly with reference to the points about labour supply and demand and about where the islanders would like to see their money coming from/going.

This is universal.

Signed,

Unhappy and very underpaid in my current job too.

This thread may just help me to kick myself up a gear and find alternative work/location.

[OxfordWill]

Don't these market forces apply in Phuket or are you slaves?

Bingo. The words here are "freelance" and "consultancy".. you dictate your own charges do you not?

If so then the real issue here is simply that you are not wanted where you are currently seeking to be wanted.

[geriatrickid]

Without doubt the economic cornerstones of supply and demand are a major factor. Phuket is awash with all sorts of IT and hospitality trade consultants, professionals and dabblers. They are as plentiful as escorts are in Patong. As alluring as Phuket may be for some, it just doesn't have the economic base that can support a population of well-paid consultants. There is no financial services centre, no heavy industry, and no light-manufacturing infrastructure that requires the expertise. Most of the hospitality trade are small companies. Even the investment syndicates that control some swatches of the entertainment district have very limited needs when it comes to requiring the skills of a specialized consultant. As the local needs are still quite basic, personnel that many of us would consider to be inept can easily meet them.

Sometimes the issue does go beyond supply and demand. Occasionally there has been a need for medical staff with advanced skills and it has been very difficult to recruit those people. There is no incentive for someone with those skills to relocate to Phuket from say BKK, even for a limited time contract. The money offered is a pittance compared to that which can be earned in BKK. (This problem should be familiar to anyone from the EU or North America, which suffer the same problem of recruiting medical staff for small towns and rural areas.)

Walk by some of the larger hotels in Phuket and sometimes you will see help wanted boards. There is a labour shortage. The salaries offered cannot cover the basic living costs of many hospitality trade workers, particularly if there is no staff housing. It's why many of the larger hotels have a high staff turnover and are obliged to recruit workers from the north. Phuket isn't just expensive for tourists and expats; it's a killer for the local Thais as well.

[fiddlehead]

Having been in business for myself for the past 28 years, i always find it a bit low when i hear people complaining that they don't make enough money compared to others.

Being in business for yourself can mean you must work 20 hour days sometimes.

Other times i take 6 month hiking trips or travel to exotic places (that's how i ended up in Phuket)

I still work 20 hour days sometimes but not as much anymore as my business is running a lot smoother these days. (experience is a good teacher)

I've tried 3 different businesses in that time and enjoy the one i'm in now as it allows me to work via the internet and take more time off.

All of those complaining that they think they should be making more money, why not start out on your own? It just may be the greatest decision you ever made. It also may enlighten you to the problems that employers and entrepreneurs have in their business decisions.

Phuket doesn't seem to me to be the best place to make the biggest pile of money. (unless you own land or a fleet of tuk tuks or something)

But it is a heck of a nice place to live. Sometimes THAT is worth more than money.

Good luck to all and think about things from your employers aspect once in a while. It may even get you off on your own.

[kingwilly]

Prices for land and living costs have been going up.

Land because of increased demand but limited supply.

Living costs because of increased petrol prices. Everything has to be trucked to Phuket.

Professional's salaries haven't gone up, probably because there are more and more professionals that are moving here and want to work. If you don't want to work for a certain amount of money, there is always another professional that will.

gotta agree wiv this!

[LivinginKata]

fiddlehead.... I hear you, and roger that.

I used to be a so called professional in the offshore industry all my working life. I retired here in Phuket and by some quirk of fate ended up a property developer and rentor of nice homes.

The work permit limitations make it difficult for any professionals to get any sort or work, given that many professions and trades are forbidden to foreigners, so these Farangs have to have have fancy manager or consultant titles, with a host of Thais doing the actual work by proxy.

We (the royal we) have been in business 10 years now, invested a huge amount of real money, always on call, never had a real holiday for 10 years (only the odd couple of days away once a year), no week ends off, all sorts of staff, construction, and client problems.

Why do I do it.... Phuket is a lovely place to live (maybe not Patong), the weather is usually really nice, and I could not imagine UK grim weather & supermarket prices. I'm here for life.

[smartecosse]

so whats the going rate for selling your soul these days anyway.................................

Maybe we have different definitions of the term "selling your soul".

To me, it means acting in a way that you would never do as a private person but, are willing to do for a company, or, employer.

I work for the benefit of me and my wife. That's it.

I think saying how much I earn on an internet forum would be rather crass. Be rest assured, if I didn't think it was worth it, I wouldn't do it.

sorry, forgot to put a smiley in it was meant to be a light hearted comment not a query on your salary

This particular thread is about "local foreign professionals" - who are supposedly here for the good of ALL on this island.

Come off it. Get real.

Are you trying to tell us that all of the people on this island should be thankful to you "local foreign professionals"?

I think the islanders would rather have high spending oil-field workers and retirees.

i believe that people on holiday or work rotation who spend a lot quickly are far more wanted than the frugal farang that watches every satang.

fly in, spend a shed load of $$$$'s and leave............. thats just what the "tourist trade" needs and that what Phuket is.

[LivinLOS]

And dont they spend.. One young guy I know must have blown 50k USD is a few months bell ringing.. Went so hard he lost his job with the oil company but sobered up, just paid his own training course (2500 USD +-), and has been offered 100k USD for 28 / 28 rotation in Indo within days of getting it.

He found a skill that people wanted, he trained himself to be qualified in that skill, and is happy to go where the work is to be able to spend like a sailor on shore leave for his down time.

Thats how you make 100k USD a year and have 6 months vacation !! Beats whining.

[naka]

And dont they spend.. One young guy I know must have blown 50k USD is a few months bell ringing.. Went so hard he lost his job with the oil company but sobered up, just paid his own training course (2500 USD +-), and has been offered 100k USD for 28 / 28 rotation in Indo within days of getting it.

He found a skill that people wanted, he trained himself to be qualified in that skill, and is happy to go where the work is to be able to spend like a sailor on shore leave for his down time.

Thats how you make 100k USD a year and have 6 months vacation !! Beats whining.

Correct.

You are never going to get your dream job if you insist on it being less than 7 miles from the family home.

Naka.

[seonai]

Just to clarify, I think Khall forgot to tell you that she actively supports Phuket's tourist industry and therefore supports the salaries of many locals - she's a writer - and she has been having a really hard time recently not being paid for her work. The ability to write perfect, good, prosaic English is a much sought after skill in Thailand and I think she just feels she ought to be a little more appreciated.

[HDRIDER]

Hi

I work offshore in oil and gas, pay is going up all the time, they look for people everywhere, i work 6 months a year, i will not get out of bed for less than 150.000 US a year. (right now with 77US a barrel that is)

[Abrak]

I am not convinced that professional services are underpriced in Phuket. I live in Bangkok but I have a villa in Phuket and am currently building another. I typically find it cheaper to employ professional services such as accountancy and lawyers from Bangkok and ship them to Phuket than to employ directly in Phuket - more to the point I find the Bangkok based service providers more professional.

As for the costs of building contractors, kitchen contractors, bathroom contractors etc. they are simply on another planet down in Phuket. I think the real question is whether Phuket will eventually price itself out of the market rather than whether farang professionals can start earning western salaries. I can import qualified staff to Phuket until the cows come home...

P.S. A much more interesting question is why there arent more pretty TGs in Phuket....

[taxin]

This particular thread is about "local foreign professionals" - who are supposedly here for the good of ALL on this island.

Come off it. Get real.

Are you trying to tell us that all of the people on this island should be thankful to you "local foreign professionals"?

I think the islanders would rather have high spending oil-field workers and retirees.

As much as I hate to take sides I have to say Sir Burr is right. Sorry Khal.

Phuket does not want "Local Professionals" taking a slice of the income. Its the foreign currency from outside what they want.

I think there is a lack of gratitude from Thaigerd. Particularly when he is being paid almost the equivalent of what a Thai chef would make in month, simply for doing one nights work, and then merely comments that its just "ok".

Dear taxin,

a good Thai Chef(not a cook) earns 40k and up per month in a good restaurant or hotel!

Why we all don't meet next week for a beer and talk about it???

Gerd

Cook, chef whatever... same same !

Ive had your food before, and to be fair it was actually quite good ! But not worth 5 times what I would pay from a Thai cook (sorry Chef) !

As for meeting up, sory I dont do the meeting thing. Plus, we already know each other anyway !

[Jet Gorgon]

Just to clarify, I think Khall forgot to tell you that she actively supports Phuket's tourist industry and therefore supports the salaries of many locals - she's a writer - and she has been having a really hard time recently not being paid for her work. The ability to write perfect, good, prosaic English is a much sought after skill in Thailand and I think she just feels she ought to be a little more appreciated.

Ain't gonna happen. Been there, done that.

I only work outta NY now and get what I deserve for my education, knowledge, experience, and ability to communicate nicely to extract the info I need. Geez, live in Phuket and work online offshore.

[khall64au]

I am not convinced that professional services are underpriced in Phuket. I live in Bangkok but I have a villa in Phuket and am currently building another. I typically find it cheaper to employ professional services such as accountancy and lawyers from Bangkok and ship them to Phuket than to employ directly in Phuket - more to the point I find the Bangkok based service providers more professional.

As for the costs of building contractors, kitchen contractors, bathroom contractors etc. they are simply on another planet down in Phuket. I think the real question is whether Phuket will eventually price itself out of the market rather than whether farang professionals can start earning western salaries. I can import qualified staff to Phuket until the cows come home...

P.S. A much more interesting question is why there arent more pretty TGs in Phuket....

So ship away - bring them down by all means. I bet they don't last long! Phuket living prices are way higher than Bangkok and that is why there are Thai staff shortages here and those Thai service professionals who do stay charge higher prices.

As for your comment - off-topic as it is - on the beauty of Thai girls, you must be hanging out in the wrong seedy bars!

I cannot believe the reaction to this thread. Firstly, it has been inhabited primarily by men who don't seem to get out of bed for under $150K a year - and secondly, I DID NOT start this as a whinge for my own situation. As stated before and I'll say it again, many long-term foreign residents I have recently spoken with are tired of the belittling rewards on offer here. Many are leaving. Yeah, yeah, a few more will drift in to take their place - for a short time!

But now I will get personal... Let me tell you a story or two. Today, I dropped a friend to the airport. He is a travel agent from Germany. He thinks Phuket is VERY expensive now and will think twice about recommending it to his clients as there are so many more value-for-money destinations in the world to recommend. Oh well, the Russians are coming so who cares!

In my OP I mentioned that I have been here for five years. During that time, my CV is overflowing with the work I have done to promote this island and southern Thailand. Despite not taking (or able to afford) a holiday since before the tsunami, I stayed because I believed that Phuket needed help due to the constant downturns and tragedies in the tourism industry. As Seonai stated in a post above, I am a writer, actually a journalist who has paid her fair share in university fees and tourism training courses (around US$15K to date and a large further loss of income hanging around on Phuket maybe longer than I should have).

Why is that an oil worker is paid so much to work half the year and drink half the year when I work all year to gain little and help many? I did this because I believed I was doing a good thing. Now, I am not so sure - as the attitude of most on this thread has shown me that it's dog-eat dog and nobody really cares about those who care about others. The work I do is important but it has worn me out. I have a conscience about what I do. Maybe one day, eco-friendly fuel will be worth more than oil?

I do not write for many Thailand publications anymore because the rewards are an absolute pittance. I not only promote tourism but also property and "lifestyle". And what a joke as so many cannot afford a decent lifestyle. One particular property agent I mentioned in a regional story (distributed around SE Asia) a few years ago generated 50 million baht in sales from a short paragraph where his business was mentioned. I was paid 4000 baht for the entire story. Did he buy me a drink next time he saw me? NO! This month, I have a Thailand property story published in an international investment magazine - which paid me the equivalent of around 10 x's what the local market will pay and their ad rates are not much more.

I believe there is a greed factor here in the driving industries and it is not becoming and nor is it healthy for the long term. My next decent paying assignment is to promote Malaysia. They seem very keen to offer all sorts of incentives to foreigners - you can even own land down there!

This evening, I took a walk on the beach to enjoy some peace. Arriving back to my car, I put the key in the ignition and it snapped in half. I phoned the Thai woman who I rent the car from. She said "too bad, you have to help yourself" This is the same woman who I gave free promotion to in a global travel guide book that will have hordes of tourists coming to rent bungalows from her over the next two years. I was stuck on a dark beach with a car I couldn't drive, kilometres from home...But thank goodness for the kindness of strangers, who helped me out!

I give up - I'm in the wrong business, time to move on and care only about myself ... just like the rest of you!

[dogblower]

Well at least I can see why you're not being paid what you think you're worth ....

[geriatrickid]

The offshore oil industry is not a good industry to use as an example to discuss the fair pricing of goods and services. It's hardly the posterboy for ethical business practices. This is an industry that relies upon jurisdictional transfer pricing to minimize tax payments and has a history of the successful exploitation of legal loopholes to successfully avoid environmental and tax liabilities. Nothing really has changed much since the 7 sisters were frolicing in the arabian oil fields back in the 30's.

Offshore oil workers can successfully avoid income taxes by relocating to jurisdictions of convenience thereby avoiding income taxes in their native lands. However, those same workers usually return to their native lands where they eventually draw upon their respective national government and social service system. This contrasts to the local worker that pays local taxes and is therefore at a disadvantage in most cases.

Now, if it's consolation to you, the oil industry is up and down like a Patong escort's underwear, Sure it's boom time now, but all it takes is a slight shift in supply and the boom will fizzle. All the Russians have to do is to open the spigot a bit more or the Canadians to come up with a new gusher in the Hebron fields or figure out how to use their nuclear technology to transform the world's largest oil reserves in the Alberta tar sands and the world will have an oil glut for a small time and workers will not be needed and oil platforms will get dumped again.

In respect to your statement that you are "in the wrong business, time to move on and care only about myself", you are probably correct in that assessment in respect to your selection of Phuket as a base of operations. Life is not always fair and that's a part of living.

[percy2]

I give up - I'm in the wrong business, time to move on and care only about myself ... just like the rest of you!

How does the coffee smell?

Cheers

[LivinLOS]

Apologies for picking apart at this but, well, your asking..

I am not convinced that professional services are underpriced in Phuket. I live in Bangkok but I have a villa in Phuket and am currently building another. I typically find it cheaper to employ professional services such as accountancy and lawyers from Bangkok and ship them to Phuket than to employ directly in Phuket - more to the point I find the Bangkok based service providers more professional.

As for the costs of building contractors, kitchen contractors, bathroom contractors etc. they are simply on another planet down in Phuket. I think the real question is whether Phuket will eventually price itself out of the market rather than whether farang professionals can start earning western salaries. I can import qualified staff to Phuket until the cows come home...

P.S. A much more interesting question is why there arent more pretty TGs in Phuket....

So ship away - bring them down by all means. I bet they don't last long! Phuket living prices are way higher than Bangkok and that is why there are Thai staff shortages here and those Thai service professionals who do stay charge higher prices.

Many would argue its the booming Phuket (mostly tourism) economy that creates the staff shortages..

I cannot believe the reaction to this thread. Firstly, it has been inhabited primarily by men who don't seem to get out of bed for under $150K a year - and secondly, I DID NOT start this as a whinge for my own situation. As stated before and I'll say it again, many long-term foreign residents I have recently spoken with are tired of the belittling rewards on offer here. Many are leaving. Yeah, yeah, a few more will drift in to take their place - for a short time!

Why do you belittle all these new arrivals as only being here a short while ?? Why is that something you constantly snipe at and look down on..

Perhaps some of these people may make more of a success at what they do ?? Perhaps many will make a happy living ?? I know a few guys who trade the markets from phuket making a few 100k USD per year here on the Island.

Also as you later admit yourself, maybe your not staying.. So why do you have the monopoly on the high handed attitude over new arrivals or the transient setting up shop and trying to make a go of it ??

But now I will get personal... Let me tell you a story or two. Today, I dropped a friend to the airport. He is a travel agent from Germany. He thinks Phuket is VERY expensive now and will think twice about recommending it to his clients as there are so many more value-for-money destinations in the world to recommend. Oh well, the Russians are coming so who cares!

Yes Phuket is getting more expensive.. But is that lowering tourist numbers ?? I thought thats exactly what the TAT are trying to do.. In fact between the lines with the 'seedy bars' type comments isnt that the kind of tourism your supposed to be working to promote ??

In my OP I mentioned that I have been here for five years. During that time, my CV is overflowing with the work I have done to promote this island and southern Thailand. Despite not taking (or able to afford) a holiday since before the tsunami, I stayed because I believed that Phuket needed help due to the constant downturns and tragedies in the tourism industry. As Seonai stated in a post above, I am a writer, actually a journalist who has paid her fair share in university fees and tourism training courses (around US$15K to date and a large further loss of income hanging around on Phuket maybe longer than I should have).

Were you paid for that work ? did you enter into those agreements willingly ??

Everyone (or almost everyone) works for thier living.. So what ?? So you chose to do it on Phuket where the pay is not good.. Thats YOUR choice.

Part of living in the 3rd world is the way you let yourself lose pace with the rising costs of the west. In the west I could bank money each year to improve the nestegg, here I draw down on my assets but back in the west I would spend 100k GBP per annum and have a lifestyle that didnt match how I live now. Even a very successful businessman here can bank only a little in savings compared to the amount modest success would bring back in the west. Those are the choices we make for the lifestyle that being here affords.

Cost of living back in the rat race there are astronomical, I support my mothers lifestyle in the UK as well as my own and hers costs more than mine to live a much more modest 'normal' life. Back in the west I was making 100's of k per year but I wouldnt get to the beach once in a whole year. Its all choices.

Why is that an oil worker is paid so much to work half the year and drink half the year when I work all year to gain little and help many? I did this because I believed I was doing a good thing. Now, I am not so sure - as the attitude of most on this thread has shown me that it's dog-eat dog and nobody really cares about those who care about others. The work I do is important but it has worn me out. I have a conscience about what I do. Maybe one day, eco-friendly fuel will be worth more than oil?

Sure maybe one day, hopefully.

But right now its a job that needs doing, its tough, its unpleasant, it involves leaving your loved ones and home, working long hours on rigs and unpleasant conditions with other smelly snoring guys. They cant find enough people who will do it so supply and demand says they must reward those that do. THATS why they get well paid.

As to believing what you are doing is a good thing.. In effect you are actually creating your own downfall.. Your boosting Phukets tourism, your adding fuel to the tourist economy, driving up prices. Its important work, but it creates the inflation and issues your suffering.

This isnt a thread about charity, or about helping others, or being a good person.. Its a thread about being paid, about making demands for reward on your effort. Do you think a magazine you freelance to really pays any attention to how long you have been here ?? Or if your a nice person ?? Or do they care about the quality of the product they are buying and the price they pay.

I do not write for many Thailand publications anymore because the rewards are an absolute pittance. I not only promote tourism but also property and "lifestyle". And what a joke as so many cannot afford a decent lifestyle. One particular property agent I mentioned in a regional story (distributed around SE Asia) a few years ago generated 50 million baht in sales from a short paragraph where his business was mentioned. I was paid 4000 baht for the entire story. Did he buy me a drink next time he saw me? NO! This month, I have a Thailand property story published in an international investment magazine - which paid me the equivalent of around 10 x's what the local market will pay and their ad rates are not much more.

There you go, outsource to the market with the good pay and live the lifestyle on cheap Phuket (and if you think it isnt try a weekend in London). Win win.

I believe there is a greed factor here in the driving industries and it is not becoming and nor is it healthy for the long term. My next decent paying assignment is to promote Malaysia. They seem very keen to offer all sorts of incentives to foreigners - you can even own land down there!

This evening, I took a walk on the beach to enjoy some peace. Arriving back to my car, I put the key in the ignition and it snapped in half. I phoned the Thai woman who I rent the car from. She said "too bad, you have to help yourself" This is the same woman who I gave free promotion to in a global travel guide book that will have hordes of tourists coming to rent bungalows from her over the next two years. I was stuck on a dark beach with a car I couldn't drive, kilometres from home...But thank goodness for the kindness of strangers, who helped me out!

Ingratitude is universal.. Self reliance solves all those issues.. You seem like a sensitive caring person.. So is my mother.. She gets eaten up by the world.. Personally I dont play like that.

Secondly you imply that others are paying you poorly and reaping huge windfalls.. Maybe they are also fighting the same issues of struggling to get by, if you think not, why not, do what they are doing, move from writer to publisher, or look at how they are reaping such windfalls.

I give up - I'm in the wrong business, time to move on and care only about myself ... just like the rest of you!

Now your getting it.. In business thats the way it has to be, expect nothing, prepare to be let down, control the game. This isnt how to win friends and influence people, its making a living. Being a hard ass is an essential part of being a private contractor, self employed, or freelance etc.

Demand your work rates and dont take work that doesnt pay you them. If your constantly fail to get work reassess the field or market your working in.

[HDRIDER]

Hi

By the way i dont pay tax, not since 1986.

[kayo]

HDRIDER:

Excellent contribution... Or wait! No! You don't contribute since '86!

[Jersey_UK]

I give up - I'm in the wrong business, time to move on and care only about myself ... just like the rest of you!

Not in the wrong bizness, just with the wrong customers - which may well mean you are in the wrong place.

[troubledthai]

......Offshore oil workers can successfully avoid income taxes by relocating to jurisdictions of convenience thereby avoiding income taxes in their native lands. .....

Can you explain more GK. They do this by relocating while they are working on the oil rigs?

[HDRIDER]

Hi

I dont need to pay tax, thats the rule where i come from, stay away from the country 182 days and we dont want your money, easy yes.., and i will still get my pension and can use the hospitals for free, nice country, but i want to stay here.

[LivinLOS]

......Offshore oil workers can successfully avoid income taxes by relocating to jurisdictions of convenience thereby avoiding income taxes in their native lands. .....

Can you explain more GK. They do this by relocating while they are working on the oil rigs?

Its often the way that when you stay away from your 'home country' for long periods you no longer owe income tax on money earnt outside that country. This doesnt apply to Americans it would seem who must keep remitting even while overseas (unless they can prove overseas payments and get a deductible)...

As Thailand will not allow many people to become resident here they are then not resident at home for tax purposes and also not resident in Thailand for tax purposes. The taxation class back in the UK is considered a PT or perpetual traveller (Permanent Tourist ).. The UK even allows you to be resident but not ordinarily resident for tax purposes which means you can still own property etc there but still not pay taxes on overseas earnings.

Thailand should wake up to self employed workers, tele workers, online workers with no Thai clients or business, as there are 1000's here who IMO would happily pay taxation in Thailand if they were given long stay visa's and the ability to legally remit taxes. The Thai system of enforcing incorporated bodies and the whole complexity (dead Thai partners, unwanted Thai employees, VAT registrations and processing, etc etc etc) simply loses Thailand a revenue stream.