Thai Corruption Revisited - My View.

[markm81]

Hi,

This is a spin off from the macdonalds thread which side tracked.

Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners.

However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional. Thailand ranks 63/163 on the corruption index. However its HDI index which factors living standards is 74. (BEST is 1, worst it 163). So if poverty levels determine corruption, Thailand would be expected to be MORE corrupt - and there is a strong link between wealth, development and corruption.

For you smug and ignorant farang who complain about getting ripped off in thailand(esp. you McDonalds man), WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THAILAND? More bang for your buck? Can't find a girl friend back home? Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?

Just because you have been there many years does not make you astute observer of thai culture. Marrying a thai girl who steals your posessions does not make Thai girls into prostitutes - just makes you a bad judge of character who was taken in by the prospect of someone who, all other things being equal, would be out of your league.

Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well. Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position. Esp. If it was someone like the macdonalds man. I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang. Sometimes locals may also come across as dishonest or immoral because of their reactions when they are caught cheating, or having made a mistake - however as a foreigner you can't expect the locals to react in the same way someone of your own culture would react.

Corruption embedded in Thai officials is a huge problem in Thailand, however it doesn't stem from any trait that is embedded in the Thai genome! It is there in most poor countries, and it was prevalent throughout most of western history! Look at Europe a couple of hundred years ago!

The Thais have nothing to be ashamed of. A nation should be ashamed if its ideals break down in relative prosperity - eg. Germany WW2. Life for Thai people is a real struggle.

Finally, the western way of life/business is new to Thais. Give them time to adjust to it - It took us a long time, and we still don't have it right.

Edited August 19, 2007 by markm81

[backflip]

"Marrying a thai girl who steals your posessions does not make Thai girls into prostitutes"

No, but when a woman accepts money for sexual favors, she's a prostitute - not a "girlfriend".

[markm81]

"Marrying a thai girl who steals your posessions does not make Thai girls into prostitutes"

No, but when a woman accepts money for sexual favors, she's a prostitute - not a "girlfriend".

Yes but whats your point?

Farang should realise that if they can't find a girlfriend back home, then looking for one in thailand may lead to trouble.

Thats not to say you can't have a genuine relationship with a Thai girl, however if you are the desperate type, seeking out a relationship, you may find the wrong type of girl, who may in essense be the equivalent of a prostitute.

Nothing strange about that however, there are girls who marry for money in most countries, and it is especially prevalent in poor countries.

It is usually the men who go seeking these girls that later complain on these boards about dishonest thais.

[lannarebirth]

In the modern world, corruption is a natural offshoot of puyai and pee/nong culture. In a more innocent time, the elders or those of greater standing used their positions and status to guide and protect those "beneath" them. This all happened in very small social circles. In recent years these circles have expanded greatly and many people have come to lead that have no relationship at all with those they are duty bound to serve. It leads to corruption IMO.

Everything I see leads me to believe that things are generally getting better for Thais. Our conceit is that we feel they have to do it at a pace set by us. In my country of origin, you could still see signs of patronage 200 years after it established itself as a democracy. The corruption has lessened with each passing year, but it never feels that way.

[bangkoksingapore]

"Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?"

I dont agree with everything Mark says, but this does ring true. Farang sure do walk with their chins high in Thailand. I get the feeling its the first time many of them have ever been respected in their lifes, or atleast Thais pretend to be respect. Honestly, one of the weirdest thing about Thailand is how much they look up to farang, and i dont think its just because they have the money. there is a general idea that farang are something special and better.

Edited August 19, 2007 by bangkoksingapore

[bangkoksingapore]

"Marrying a thai girl who steals your posessions does not make Thai girls into prostitutes"

No, but when a woman accepts money for sexual favors, she's a prostitute - not a "girlfriend".

Money is an important relationship factor for women. Your comment is ridiculous.

Ever hear about the study where they took a bunch of male models and made them wear mcdonalds uniforms and took a bunch of fat middle aged guys and made them wear designer suits and asked a group of women which men were more attractive.

[jasreeve17]

I'm not impressed with the OP's attitude.

He'd spend half his nights planning schemes to rip people off.

Lannarebirth - nice points, but I think you're too kind to the corrupt folk. It's not natural to take all others to the cleaners jsut because you are in a position of power to do so.

[Mid]

there is a general idea that farang are something special and better

etc ..................

[lannarebirth]

I'm not impressed with the OP's attitude.

He'd spend half his nights planning schemes to rip people off.

Lannarebirth - nice points, but I think you're too kind to the corrupt folk. It's not natural to take all others to the cleaners jsut because you are in a position of power to do so.

I didn't say it was natural. It was just the way I see it. In time I think the corruption we see so much of, will diminish.

You know people here are always talking about how uninterested Thai youth are. I have to tell you that has not been my experience at all, amongst those with educations at least. I see most of the corrupt elements in Thai society having an avergae age that gets older evry year.

[JetsetBkk]

Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well. Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position.

Thanks for the warning.

[girlx]

Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well. Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position. Esp. If it was someone like the macdonalds man. I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang.

heh?

[bangkoksingapore]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

[jasreeve17]

I'm not impressed with the OP's attitude.

He'd spend half his nights planning schemes to rip people off.

Lannarebirth - nice points, but I think you're too kind to the corrupt folk. It's not natural to take all others to the cleaners jsut because you are in a position of power to do so.

I didn't say it was natural. It was just the way I see it. In time I think the corruption we see so much of, will diminish.

You know people here are always talking about how uninterested Thai youth are. I have to tell you that has not been my experience at all, amongst those with educations at least. I see most of the corrupt elements in Thai society having an avergae age that gets older evry year.

I hope that your last line is right. It gives some hope.

[jasreeve17]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

[girlx]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

i have been in some pretty rough spots in my life, and i always managed to get myself out of them without hurting or scamming others. so yeah, i do know for sure that i would not spend all night trying to think of ways to scam "sleazy" people.

that said, OP i agree with your point that cultural values are different here and rather than try to impose ours on the thais, we should make an effort to understand how they think and roll with it. not easy though.

Edited August 19, 2007 by girlx

[paulsmithson]

In my opinion Thailand has improved by leaps and bounds over the last thirty years. In my dealings with officialdom here I have never once been asked for a backhander in the last five years.

Public servants have been extrememly helpful and very genuine to me.

There is indoubtedley corruption---just as there is in the UK. Compare mr Taxins land deal to tony blairs ( his name stinks so much to me I would never refer to him as mr nor use capitals for his name) immigration policies as his wife grew wealthier and wealthier as she drew legal aid to defend the very people that her husbands government was trying to deport!!!!

Yeah there is a lot of corruption in Europe -maybe we have become better at hiding this corruption that the Thai have!!!!!

[kmart]

Some real humanitarians posting the usual mean-spirited <deleted> on here then...? Get a life or at least a new set of cliches to spout, <deleted>.

I think of this forum when I want to delay ejacualation, I swear.

[jasreeve17]

In my opinion Thailand has improved by leaps and bounds over the last thirty years. In my dealings with officialdom here I have never once been asked for a backhander in the last five years.

Public servants have been extrememly helpful and very genuine to me.

There is indoubtedley corruption---just as there is in the UK. Compare mr Taxins land deal to tony blairs ( his name stinks so much to me I would never refer to him as mr nor use capitals for his name) immigration policies as his wife grew wealthier and wealthier as she drew legal aid to defend the very people that her husbands government was trying to deport!!!!

Yeah there is a lot of corruption in Europe -maybe we have become better at hiding this corruption that the Thai have!!!!!

I'm sorry, but I can't agree.

That corruption is a Worldwide problem is a "giveme".

But, Thailand is still exceptionally corrupt. Working in Thai companies and government, making house and land deals (with the missus), I see no end of corruption all day, every day. My Thai friends and colleagues tell me it is bad and has got worse over the Thaksin era.

My experiences, and the ones of people I know (Thai and alien ), have clearly been different from yours.

[siamamerican]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

How rich, smelly, and sleezy? I think I may not smell like roses - should I be worried? Also, who are the righteous that determine which farangs deserve to be ripped off.

[rainman]

I have to disagree with you. Corruption doesn't exist in Thailand because some Farang is coming here to look for a girlfriend, pay for sex or lay in the sun at the beach all day. In fact, those are probably the least corrupted sectors. The biggest corruptions are happening in politics and police, where no Farang has ever stepped a foot into (except into jail). And if you get 1 Baht less at McDonald's than you're supposed to, well let them know before you walk away, it's like that in any country. The biggest corruption doesn't involve Farangs, it involves Thais against Thais.

Edited August 19, 2007 by rainman

[jasreeve17]

I have to disagree with you. Corruption doesn't exist in Thailand because some Farang is coming here to look for a girlfriend, pay for sex or lay in the sun at the beach all day. In fact, those are probably the least corrupted sectors. The biggest corruptions are happening in politics and police, where no Farang has ever stepped a foot into (except into jail). And if you get 1 Baht less at McDonald's than you're supposed to, well let them know before you walk away, it's like that in any country. The biggest corruption doesn't involve Farangs, it involves Thais against Thais.

Very true.

[markm81]

"Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?"

I dont agree with everything Mark says, but this does ring true. Farang sure do walk with their chins high in Thailand. I get the feeling its the first time many of them have ever been respected in their lifes, or atleast Thais pretend to be respect. Honestly, one of the weirdest thing about Thailand is how much they look up to farang, and i dont think its just because they have the money. there is a general idea that farang are something special and better.

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

AN example - thais think that anything made by aussie company david jones are very luxurious, and it is a status symbol for them

to buy David Jones products.

Furthermore, many thais buy cheap australian brands, for up to 5x the retail price in australia. Thats a lot of baht for a cream that doesn't do much, just because it is made in australia.

[jasreeve17]

Shockingly poor arguments and examples, again, from Mark.

Wait til some of the more argumentative members on the board get hold of your "logic".

[markm81]

I have to disagree with you. Corruption doesn't exist in Thailand because some Farang is coming here to look for a girlfriend, pay for sex or lay in the sun at the beach all day. In fact, those are probably the least corrupted sectors. The biggest corruptions are happening in politics and police, where no Farang has ever stepped a foot into (except into jail). And if you get 1 Baht less at McDonald's than you're supposed to, well let them know before you walk away, it's like that in any country. The biggest corruption doesn't involve Farangs, it involves Thais against Thais.

Actually you are not disagreeing with me. I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it. I know that thais suffer the most from the corruption in thailand because it occurs daily with my family members who are thais.

[markm81]

Shockingly poor arguments and examples, again, from Mark.

Wait til some of the more argumentative members on the board get hold of your "logic".

Jasreeve17, if you have something to say, be specific. You are using the refuge of the ignorant by making statements that are vague and irrefutable in nature.

Are you denying that thais(generally) are obsessed with western products? I don't have any studies to back this up, however most thais are fairly conscientious and intelligent are aware of this obsession.

Or are you denying how this fits in with the rest of the argument?

Because the logic is pretty straight forward, sorry you missed it!

[Lancelot]

Are you related to the girl on the BKK-Pattya bus?

"This is THAILAND, go home farang!"

[endure]

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[markm81]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

How rich, smelly, and sleezy? I think I may not smell like roses - should I be worried? Also, who are the righteous that determine which farangs deserve to be ripped off.

I dont think anyone is arguing that certain farang deserve to be ripped off and others dont. However foreigners should not be suprised that they are targeted, and the dishonesty is not 'exceptional'. All other factors considered, Thais are fairly honest.

The smelly and sleazy farang been mentioned because often Thais have to put up with a class of farang that are an embarrassment to the rest of us at best. Especially in places like Pattaya. These are the Farang that don't know, or care, about Thai culture, and just go about their days being generally rude and obnoxious to the Thais.

You cannot compare Thais to Westerners. Compare Thais to people from other less developed nations and you see that there are usually similar levels of corruption, and so the corruption is 'unexceptional'.

[bangkoksingapore]

mark what you have to realize about these forums is that people have bad reading comprehension and dont like to think, so you have to spell everything about as clearly and simply as possible because a lot of these guys are old.

[markm81]

mark what you have to realize about these forums is that people have bad reading comprehension and dont like to think, so you have to spell everything about as clearly and simply as possible because a lot of these guys are old.

yeah its amazing how poorly logic can be used. I can't be bothered out pointing out how many examples given against my arguement actually work in my favour, because I have the feeling it will be a waste of time.

You are probably right about them being old. Thats probably why they complain about everything.

Its a shame however that the message doesn't sink in, as I feel embarrassed by the way many people from Australia(and other western countries) treat the thais, spurred on by ignorant notions that the Thais are unusually corrupt. Or the farang that want to take all the things they enjoy about thailand that they can't get back home, but expect the thais to act in accordance to their own culture. Many of these farang are extremely obnoxious and treat decent thais poorly.

Noone should assume that I believe that corruption is a good thing. It isn't, however its easy to see its causes.

In fact I believe thais should do what they can to stamp out the corruption as soon as possible, especially in their officials(no small task). I also don't excuse corruption or dishonesty on a personal level. There are poor thais who are extremely honest, and rich thais who are extremely corrupt. I am only speaking about general trends.

Edited August 19, 2007 by markm81