Proposed Constitution Clears Referendum With Comfortable Margin

[Mid]

(BangkokPost.com) – Things are looking up for Thailand’s economy now that the draft charter has passed a national referendum even if it is by a small margin, according to Industry Minister Kosit Panpiemras.

snip

apologies , it is a cross post

relevant IMHO .....................

[ColPyat]

I found of the posts here as ridiculous. and that is an understatement.

posters who were posting predictions that the referendum will not go through are now finding excuses as to why this democratic vote is not such a sucess or trying to review the results as a "samll margin" comfortable margin" etc....

I looked at what happens in other countries

it seems that in most countries that have a democracy the win or loose is determined by a few percent.

why should thailand be different??

or is this thread just a pile of ecuses forthose who had wrong predictions??

Eh, who please posted that the constitution will not be accepted?

Well actually I said it would be very close and did make an arguement that if one were to take TRTs support claim of 14+ million it would go down, but I thought I at least implied that I was basing that on something I doubted, and I dont think I have been identiifed as the greatest Thaksin and UDD supporter or someone who has tried to say the no was a victory, which I actually dont believe. I dont think anyone else was arguing anywhere near my position on the closeness of the yes-no.

No problem, i think highdiver did not mean you either in his post about people making excuses after wrong predictions.

My position was that the constitution will be accepted by a larger majority, and i am surprised how narrow the margin turned out to be.

But yes, interesting times ahead, about coming allegiances.

[mouse]

I found of the posts here as ridiculous. and that is an understatement.

posters who were posting predictions that the referendum will not go through are now finding excuses as to why this democratic vote is not such a sucess or trying to review the results as a "samll margin" comfortable margin" etc....

I looked at what happens in other countries

it seems that in most countries that have a democracy the win or loose is determined by a few percent.

why should thailand be different??

or is this thread just a pile of ecuses forthose who had wrong predictions??

Here a few percent had nothing to do with it. Let's work it out. Approximately 57% of th epopulation voted for the Charter but no one seems to care that barely half (57.6%) of the population showed to vote at all. At a total polulation of 61.5 million that means that only 35.4 million showed up and then only 20 million passed the measure and to me that is not a majority but a third. I hope that the other two thirds never complain

[Mid]

well regardless of what we think ,

comfortable has been replaced by satisfied

Results 1 - 8 of 8 for Thailand satisfied-with-the-referendum. (0.22 seconds)

all relate to Thailand

Results 1 - 5 of about 6 for Thailand Comfortable-Margin. (0.22 seconds)

only one of relates to Thailand

[highdiver]

as usual 'diver , you wouldn't know the truth if it rose up and bite you ,

please provide cites where members had wrong predictions ??

make it easy for you , I'm on record as to saying it would pass .

bring something of substance to the table .....................

As usual Mid your inferiority as well as your paronid attitude assumes that I was refering to you.

I was not!!!

I am glad to see that at least hammered did step up to the occasion and admited it.

[Mid]

thats all you got ??

singular , and tenuous at best

your post cited members plural , of which I am one

back in your hole

troll

[highdiver]

thats all you got ??

singular , and tenuous at best

your post cited members plural , of which I am one

back in your hole

troll

so now you refer to yourself as "plural"

you knows nothing and thinks you e knows everything. That points clearly to a political career.

maybe you should run for the next elections....

oh sorry i forgot... you not even a resident.. you cant afford to be one..

[Mid]

of which I am one

English not your mother tongue ??

[hammered]

as usual 'diver , you wouldn't know the truth if it rose up and bite you ,

please provide cites where members had wrong predictions ??

make it easy for you , I'm on record as to saying it would pass .

bring something of substance to the table .....................

As usual Mid your inferiority as well as your paronid attitude assumes that I was refering to you.

I was not!!!

I am glad to see that at least hammered did step up to the occasion and admited it.

I would rather not get into this row but I would like to point out that although I thought the vote would be close and did argue that using TRT numbers they should win, this was tended as more of a tongue in cheek arguement. I am also generally known as being anti-Thaksin, anti-TRT and anti-UDD on this board.

[Mid]

and that was all you HAD ( past tense ) 'diver ,

pie anyone ??

[marshbags]

Im just a simple man. I live a simple life, working, raising a family, and trying to enjoy myself day by day. I love this country, I love my wife, her family, my job, and my place in the world.

I look at my life since the coup. It hasn't changed one single bit. I still do the same things, go to the same places, etc. People speak of my rights being eroded by a military dictatorship. If they have, I haven't noticed, not in my daily life. No one has told me what I can and cannot buy, can and cannot watch or read, etc. (again, in my daily life, perhaps yours is different)

I judge people by what they do and say. Long before the coup I judged Thaksin to be corrupt, calculating, vindictive, and callous. I was one of those who was happy when we was swept out, judging it to be a necessary evil. Since that time I have listened to what the current leaders have pledged to do, and what they have done.

They pledged to investigate the corruption of the previous regime. Did they? Yes. Did it result in indictiments against people? Yes

They pledged to form a constitution drafting committee, for the purpose of writing a constitution. Did they? Yes Did the produce a constitution? Yes Is it good? I can't say. I read the special section of the Bangkok Post, detailing the difference and similarities between the previous and the current constitution. It looks like a well thought out, sincere attempt to design a government. Whether that proves to be the case, only time will tell.

They pledged to conduct a referendum on they constitution. The first of its kind in this country's history. Did they? Yes The result? It passed.

They have pledged to hold free and fair elections by the end of the year. Did they? We will see. They have set a date for Dec. 16.

Many will call me naive, but I don't care. I gave up caring what other people think of me a long time ago. In my eyes, the military has done everything they set out to do. They seem to be doing it in an honest and transparent way. I have listened to Sonthi and the the PM speak, and I believe them to be of good character. Men that are honestly trying to right past wrongs, in the face of tremendous obstacles.

They have made mistakes, they have misspoke from time to time, but in terms of the big picture, they have held to their word, and done what they said they were going to do. Thats all I ask from my leaders. They haven't lied to me, they haven't misled me (to my knowledge), and I can live with that.

My life goes on much as it has the last several years. I'm blessed to live in this country, that has beauty, and grace, and wonder. I acknowledge the faults but I don't dwell on them constantly, for doing so would turn me bitter, and that is no way to go through life.

This afternoon Im going to go to the local orphage, and read to the children there. I think it makes a positive difference in my community to do this, and maybe it will benefit those kids in some way. Its a more productive use of my time, then anything else I could imagine doing.

Best,

JB

Apologies in advance for a longish reply.

Good Post, no great post and i empathise with your observations and the relevance on the situation pertaining to the last 10 months.

What these people do not seeem to grasp or indeed remember is to how Thaksin entered the arena, leading the newly formed " TRT " onto the political stage.

He convinced the majority of Thailand, ( and many ex pats ) that he was sincere and truly cared about it,s citizens in ALL walks of life.

Many of the poorer ones, especially the farmers in the N.E. were rewarded and bought for their support over the next 5 years to enable his continued plundering and guaranteed re election at the polls.

He used the Thai love Thai slogan to it,s maximum and they were all sucked in by it and his phoney HONEST ( DISHONEST )sincerity.

How could anyone have seen the making of such a dictatorial individual that was under this guise.

How could anyone have foreseen the plundering of the Kingdoms assets and corruption on a scale unheard of or imaginable, even by Thailands standards.

This dictator was on the brink of becoming totally uncontrollable and indeed was about to launch himself into a tyrant and take the country into a tyranical abyss

The military in turn led a peaceful, bloodless coup to stop his evil intentions becoming reality, saving everyone from the consequences of such an evil scenario.

The coup also in turn, was welcomed by the majority of it,s citizens and as J.B points out they made and kept promises to do things to put the country back on a more secure footing, giving it back to the people.

This was not because of fear and as was witnessed by anyone who cared to look with their eyes open, was heartfelt and sincere.

For their brave actions in challenging the unknown or the outcome, they have been slagged off, constantly undermined and criticised for their honest endeavours to re unite the citizens and sow the seeds for future generations to benefit.

Have you who are guilty of this ever wondered what you are doing by these actions.

You are subscribing to the evil intentions of Thaksin and his coherts and doing the opposite to what should be happening.

This man needs to brought to account fo his dishonest behaviour and all the charges against him need to be fully publicised and he needs to brought to justice, big time.

While you are spending your time doing you best to undermine the honest intentions of the current authorities who have the task of sorting all the offences of mismanagement and all that goes with it..............

You are, for some unknown reason, keeping the real issues that should be addressed and debated, out of the picture.

If Thaksin had been allowed to continue with his evil intentions the Soi,s of Thailand would have been running with rivers of blood.

Innocents against Innocents, families against families.

End of my non violent Rant.

I am saddened and disappointed that we cannot encourage healing between the Y and N voters and prepare for the next big challenge in December, as this is what democracy demands.

With so many similar threads on going it must be difficult for the Mods to keep them in a coherent way for recent viewers so please use the search facility if anyone needs to research the various debates on the above.

Recommended reading IMHO and educational on it,s content and diversity.

marshbags

Edited August 21, 2007 by marshbags

[Siripon]

The problem with many of the just- arrived posters is they see the word 'junta' - ouch! that must be nasty!

Read one or two articles in the international press by journalists not even based in Thailand, than gaily( excuse my old fashioned use of the word) assume Thailand is heading for a dictatorship under the military.

As mentioned in earlier posts, elections are on schedule, all parties and their nominees can stand, Thaksin is facing courts with judges established long before the junta, all evidence for conviction or acquittal has to be released for public consumption.

My earnest hope is that half of TRT will move beyond Thaksin in spite of his enormous wealth, people such as Anek should be able to form a party of decent folk, can Somsak Thepsutin rise to the challenge, or will he be sucked into the money vortex as before?

[blaze]

The problem with many of the just- arrived posters is they see the word 'junta' - ouch! that must be nasty!

Read one or two articles in the international press by journalists not even based in Thailand, than gaily( excuse my old fashioned use of the word) assume Thailand is heading for a dictatorship under the military.

As mentioned in earlier posts, elections are on schedule, all parties and their nominees can stand, Thaksin is facing courts with judges established long before the junta, all evidence for conviction or acquittal has to be released for public consumption.

My earnest hope is that half of TRT will move beyond Thaksin in spite of his enormous wealth, people such as Anek should be able to form a party of decent folk, can Somsak Thepsutin rise to the challenge, or will he be sucked into the money vortex as before?

Please explain the term "just arrived posters". Anyone who was here in 1992 would not castigate those wary of Thai military dictatorships in such a manner. While much is made about the numbers in the drug wars- the number of 'disappeared' under the Suchinda reign of terror (short lived though it was) was estimated for several years at being MUCH higher than the six hundred now accepted. And don't forget- many of the same people (Mechai) that are involved in this adventure, were involved then too.

[Mid]

2007 Constitution to be ready for royal command on Monday

August 21, 2007 : Last updated 04:30 pm

Three handwritten copies of the 2007 Constitution engraved with gold leaf are expected to be ready on Monday for royal approval by His Majesty the King.

"The charter will take effect after the King signs the royal command for promulgation," National Legislative Assembly Speaker Meechai Ruchuphan said Tuesday.

Lawmakers are scheduled today to start the deliberation of three organic legislations relating to the elections, Meechai said.

The deliberation will be complete within 45 days, counting from August 19, the date for the referendum vote, he said.

The Nation

[Plus]

Blaze, there are plenty of posters here who are fairly new to Thailand and Thai military. 1992 is not everything there's to know about it.

A couple of years ago there was a poll about the role of the armed forces in Thailand. Something like 80% had no clear idea.

For many the main duty of the army is to protect the "three pillars", either from external or internal enemies. That's also the role that the army believes themselves. The role they haven't overstepped with the latest coup, btw.

Thailand is ages away from western definition of what the army should do - strictly follow civilian government and target external enemies only. Military is so much more here. Most of those "civilians" are ex-army/police themselves. Pick up any name from the newspaper, there's 90% chance it will be an ex-general.

[blaze]

Blaze, there are plenty of posters here who are fairly new to Thailand and Thai military. 1992 is not everything there's to know about it.

A couple of years ago there was a poll about the role of the armed forces in Thailand. Something like 80% had no clear idea.

For many the main duty of the army is to protect the "three pillars", either from external or internal enemies. That's also the role that the army believes themselves. The role they haven't overstepped with the latest coup, btw.

Thailand is ages away from western definition of what the army should do - strictly follow civilian government and target external enemies only. Military is so much more here. Most of those "civilians" are ex-army/police themselves. Pick up any name from the newspaper, there's 90% chance it will be an ex-general.

And the situation you describe is one of the situations that even people who haven't lived long in Thailand are aware of as one of the great hinderences to development in developing countries- the strangle hold that the military holds on the nation (rarely does any tin pot military say its only concern is with its own well being- invariably the expressed (and swallowed whole by the suckers- or as Lenin called them, "useful idiots") concern is for the nation as some kind of spiritual entity- or for the church/faith- or for 'national unity' or 'reconciliation'. And all too often the military even under semi functioning democracies thrives while the people starve. (USA is a case in point- remember Ike's warning of the military industrial complex).

Yes it is ages away from a western definition of what an army 'should' do. But as long as it holds the political and economic clout that it currently has- and as long as the opposition to that clout are muted or shouted down or worse yet, scorned as being 'arrivistes'- then don't expect any change soon.

Edited August 21, 2007 by blaze

[Mid]

Yes it is ages away from a western definition of what an army 'should' do. But as long as it holds the political and economic clout that it currently has- and as long as the opposition to that clout are muted or shouted down or worse yet, scorned as being 'arrivistes'- then don't expect any change soon.

[ColPyat]

Blaze, there are plenty of posters here who are fairly new to Thailand and Thai military. 1992 is not everything there's to know about it.

A couple of years ago there was a poll about the role of the armed forces in Thailand. Something like 80% had no clear idea.

For many the main duty of the army is to protect the "three pillars", either from external or internal enemies. That's also the role that the army believes themselves. The role they haven't overstepped with the latest coup, btw.

Thailand is ages away from western definition of what the army should do - strictly follow civilian government and target external enemies only. Military is so much more here. Most of those "civilians" are ex-army/police themselves. Pick up any name from the newspaper, there's 90% chance it will be an ex-general.

And there fortunately is a rising sector of the population that does not agree with this self definition. 40% plus the many "yes" voters that voted so to get the army back into the barracks ASAP.

The role of the military will change here.

[Mid]

Thai leaders on sales mission

Connie Levett

August 22, 2007

THAILAND has limply endorsed a new constitution, and a democratic system designed to keep charismatic former leaders at bay, relieving the military of power for the first time since it took charge of the country in a coup last September.

Only 57 per cent of Thais voted in Sunday's referendum and 58 per cent of those voters - less than a third of those eligible - approved the changes, but that will be enough for Thailand to return to a largely elected system of government.

snip

smh.com.au

[jumnien]

Yes, Thais will have a list of pre-appoved Generals to vote for in a minority of Senate elections. The remainder of the senators will be appointed by the military.

[Plus]

And there fortunately is a rising sector of the population that does not agree with this self definition. 40% plus the many "yes" voters that voted so to get the army back into the barracks ASAP.

The role of the military will change here.

It wasn't a vote on army's role in politics, nor it was a vote against coup. People voted "no" strictly along party lines, not personal consience. Those provinces where politicians jumped TRT ship voted "yes", those that still stayed, voted "no".

Lots of "activists" are in the papers saying that there were many anti-Thaksin people who voted "no" but they can't come up with any reasonable estimates. They were simply swallowed by milllions of TRT faithfuls. How many anti-Thaksin people in Isan voted no? Less than zilch of a percent.

And it's not a self definition, it comes from mainstream history books taught in schools, and results of a nationwide survew are not very far either. Like it or not, but ignoring it is foolish. I know you refer alternative history, but we are talking about peoples' perception, not facts.

>>>

Blaze,

Had Thaksin not screwed his popular mandate so badly, the soldiers would have stayed in barracks and we'd never hear them again. They were pretty quiet since 1992 anyway, but then Thaksin came in and suddenly the country realised that the army is not nearly as bad or corrupt or self-serving.

No one could do or say anything against him and the gross injustice he inflicted upon the nation - no politicians, no Democrats, nobody but the army. No one could step forward and risk his reputation, career and even life. Well, Sondhi Limtomongkul did, but that wasn't enough.

Generals were not perfect, but all in all they behaved selflessly so far and stayed true to their word. Much more than can be said about any opposing politician or "activist".

The ultimate test will be handover of power. We shall wait and see if it happens.

Look at Pakistan - when Musharraf came to power his only agenda was cleaning up the country and Pakistanis trusted him, he has been in power for ten years now and still remains quite popular. People look at the real results, not simple labels. That's why Siriporn warned newbies against judging the junta by its name only.

[ColPyat]

And it's not a self definition, it comes from mainstream history books taught in schools, and results of a nationwide survew are not very far either. Like it or not, but ignoring it is foolish. I know you refer alternative history, but we are talking about peoples' perception, not facts.

That is true.

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

[marshbags]

And it's not a self definition, it comes from mainstream history books taught in schools, and results of a nationwide survew are not very far either. Like it or not, but ignoring it is foolish. I know you refer alternative history, but we are talking about peoples' perception, not facts.

That is true.

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

The embedded rules of law of the past are quickly changing, and for the better.

For a good example of the future stepping out of it,s embedded past / history, the N. Ireland issue and the accomplishmnents overcoming culture differences of an extreme and harmful nature.

When you consider what had to be overcome makes it a remarkable achievement and should be a lesson fo all Nations to follow in this 21st century.

Just arrived posters are not just those who have come to live in Thailand.

I have also remarked upon this particular group, but called / referred to them as recent viewers.

It is also meant to refer to new members who reside outside this country, along with others who have only just took an interest in the suject matter of a particular thread. We must remember that although this is Thai Visa.com members are joining from all over the globe who are taking an interest in discussions that are debated.

I think Siripon is including these also in his post reference to JUNTA and how it is perceived as a threat in general terms.

We have gone global, thanks to the quality imput all members contribute along with fair and sensible moderation in the majority of cases.

With due respect

Admin, may i put an idea for consideration if it is at all possible.

Regarding closing one thread and creating a follow on.

Would it be helpful to do a similar reference as to providing a link at the start of the follow on to allow access to the one it is superseding along with a similar link up.

This in turn would be benificial to refer back to and access a post from the initial thread or indeed pick up on all that has already been posted.

Just a thought.

marshbags

Edited August 22, 2007 by marshbags

[Plus]

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

If not provoked again the army will follow the trend started after 1992.

The rest of the elites have nothing to worry about - those "dustbins of history" are pretty comfortable places for those who survive periodic shake ups.

Judging by guestbooks at top notch hotels they still have time and money to enjoy life.

Local elites have nothing to fear from populist governments. What can they possibly do to them? Nationalise their assets? Take away their companies and business concessions? Stop newspapers from publishing social pages?

[hammered]

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

If not provoked again the army will follow the trend started after 1992.

The rest of the elites have nothing to worry about - those "dustbins of history" are pretty comfortable places for those who survive periodic shake ups.

Judging by guestbooks at top notch hotels they still have time and money to enjoy life.

Local elites have nothing to fear from populist governments. What can they possibly do to them? Nationalise their assets? Take away their companies and business concessions? Stop newspapers from publishing social pages?

Thailand will find itself run by one elite or another for a very long long time. All countries do. Populist governments are led by elites too. Yes the elite of kind or another will always be around unless of course a real grassroots revolution occurs. It hasnt happened in a number of decades anywhere worldwide and even the Russian revolution that at first did have a number of low class leaders emerge after the revolution at reasonably high level quickly saw these people reinstitutionalise themselves as a new elite. These days even the ultra populist so called socialist Chavez cannot exactly be seen as not part of an elite. Outside of a state based on Proudhons anarchism or the pure communism of the Marx-Engels brigade it is hard not to see an elite existing as a ruling group. The idealistic state forms of anarchism and communism theorised over a hundred years ago still exist only as theories and indeed the socialist stepping stone to achieve communism seems to have faltered in many places worldwide. In fact more nationalistic, theological and manipulated so called democratic systems seem to be more practiced or talked about these days and they all rely heavily on having a ruling elite and amnipulating the people. I doubt Thailand will buck the trend. Thaksin himself didnt exactly hail from a poverty stricken background and married into a nice elite family. How many Thai MPs come from a poor background? The old 1997 constitution "of the people" facistically banned most of the people from the country from even running as an MP creating a constitutional elite (dont know if the new one has kept this or not).

What we see in Thailand is a struggle for who will be the ruling elite. It doesnt have much to do with the interests of the people or the country. And right now as the protagonists line up on one side or the other we cannot even see an idealistic or political faultline. Both sides include ultra-nationalists, pro-democracy types, activists, feudal landlord MPs and influential ones, businessmen, bureaucrats, police, military. When looking at that muddled alliance thast both sides consist of it becomes clear that even if there is a winner takes all event occurs nothing will have changed and that the reality is a power struggle in the elite and nothing else.

[larvidchr]

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

If not provoked again the army will follow the trend started after 1992.

The rest of the elites have nothing to worry about - those "dustbins of history" are pretty comfortable places for those who survive periodic shake ups.

Judging by guestbooks at top notch hotels they still have time and money to enjoy life.

Local elites have nothing to fear from populist governments. What can they possibly do to them? Nationalise their assets? Take away their companies and business concessions? Stop newspapers from publishing social pages?

What the elite fears more than anything, is if Thailand adopts normal global company trade practises, with foreigners being able to control and own company's in Thailand, because the moment that happens they will be ousted because off their obvious lack of buiessnes skills, they all know they will loose the positions they now hold because of family names connections aso.

This is the true fears of Thailand's feudal economic elite, and that is why they desperate try to keep Thailand closed, with no concern for the country as a whole, they keep Thailand a backward 3 world country.

When the previous government opened up for more normal practices like selling Thai company's to foreign interest the panic set in full force.

Edited August 22, 2007 by larvidchr

[hammered]

The A-Times has a piece out on the chasrter passage:

Democratic affirmation for Thai junta

Thailand's highly anticipated national referendum on a military-drafted and less democratic constitution went according to the ruling junta's long-term political plan on Sunday. Official results released show a landslide victory for the junta, with nearly 57% of Thai voters approving and 41% voting against the charter.

Rest From: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IH22Ae02.html

I hope the wording doesnt create a new round of exactly the same arguements on here.

Edited August 22, 2007 by hammered

[sriracha john]

It shouldn't.... it's clear-cut, basic mathematics....

"satisfied" plus "landslide", divided by 2, equals "comfortable"

[ColPyat]

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/22Aug2007_news00.php

Army frets at narrow 'yes' vote

A source close to the CNS said the army chief has dispatched over 50,000 troops to villages and communities across the country and spent some 10 billion baht on many projects since last September's coup to rally support.

A military source said the CNS's strategy was a flop and it was time for the troops to return to barracks.

''I think Gen Sonthi should pull the soldiers out. We have been there for almost a year and it isn't working.

''The people are good to us and cooperative. But here comes the result and we know we failed,'' said the source, an officer stationed in a northeastern province.

[Plus]

What the elite fears more than anything, is if Thailand adopts normal global company trade practises, with foreigners being able to control and own company's in Thailand, because the moment that happens they will be ousted because off their obvious lack of buiessnes skills

Moot point - there's no way a populist government will open the country to farangs.

Besides, foreigners have alway found ways to own and control companies here without any impact on the elites.

There's a large number of failing companies with foreign executives who have no idea whatsoever how to run business in Thailand. They are no threat.