Is Isaan Different?

[citizen33]

While even the Northern Region had a narrow majority in favour of the draft constitution, it looks like about 62% in Isaan voted 'no'. What are we to make of this? The story of recent Thai politics can be told in different ways. It is obvious that there is a split between the more affluent urban areas and the poor rural areas. For some, this is a consequence of manipulation of uneducated farmers, whose votes are allegedly often controlled by local patrons and cash payments. For others, it is about the political struggle between the rich Thai-Chinese elite, who generally opposed the redistributive populist policies of TRT, and a disadvantaged rural population who appreciated low cost health care, village grants and loans for farmers. I wonder if the separate history of the NE could account in part for a different political outlook. Even in recent times it has been a base for opposition to the dominant central Thai groups. Just on a cursory reading, Isaan seems to have been the centre for opposition to the collaborator government during the Japanese occupation, the main area of CPT insurgency during the Vietnam era, a strong base for many of the civil society movements that opposed undemocratic governments in the 70s and 80s and then the heartland of TRT support. I am no expert, but can we really ignore this history and say that the people of Isaan have no understanding of politics and political issues? What do our long term residents think?

Edited August 20, 2007 by citizen33

[roietjimmy]

While even the Northern Region had a narrow majority in favour of the draft constitution, it looks like about 62% in Isaan voted 'no'. What are we to make of this? The story of recent Thai politics can be told in different ways. It is obvious that there is a split between the more affluent urban areas and the poor rural areas. For some, this is a consequence of manipulation of uneducated farmers, whose votes are allegedly often controlled by local patrons and cash payments. For others, it is about the political struggle between the rich Thai-Chinese elite, who generally opposed the redistributive populist policies of TRT, and a disadvantaged rural population who appreciated low cost health care, village grants and loans for farmers. I wonder if the separate history of the NE could account in part for a different political outlook. Even in recent times it has been a base for opposition to the dominant central Thai groups. Just on a cursory reading, Isaan seems to have been the centre for opposition to the collaborator government during the Japanese occupation, the main area of CPT insurgency during the Vietnam era, a strong base for many of the civil society movements that opposed undemocratic governments in the 70s and 80s and then the heartland of TRT support. I am no expert, but can we really ignore this history and say that the people of Isaan have no understanding of politics and political issues? What do our long term residents think?

What a refreshing post. A thoughtful attempt to explore the reasons Isaan People vote the way they vote without resorting to cliches about ignorance and/or being bought off.

Hope to add more to this post myself but for now only add a short comment on the recent "vote". These are my "observations" of how the local people feel and not an attempt to justify their feelings.

Since Thaksin became PM, the people of Isaan finally had a champion leading the government and they did it by exercising their democratic right via their vote. During his tenure, Thaksin did indeed keep most of his promises and further strengthened the "perception" as a champion of the Isaan people. In politics, no matter the country, perceptions play a great role in how people support a leader/goverment via their votes. What he did to gain this support, his motivations and methods are irrelevant. The fact is, he had overwhelming support in Isaan and still does. The recent vote on the draft constitution was simply a reaction to having had their champion removed from office in September 2006 by a distinctly undemocratic process. The overwhelming "no" vote from Isaan had nothing to do with displeasure of the draft constitution and everything to do with sending a message of displeasure aimed at the people who illegally ousted their champion.

Edited August 20, 2007 by roietjimmy

[tahaan]

Most of those closest to me here voted no to the constitution but also voted against TRT in the last election. My view is that the result is more a statement against undemocratic principle than a reaction to the ousting of their champion. The good folk of Isaan are not all as ignorant as some would have us believe.

[Jingthing]

Speaking Lao is different. Anyone know what percentage of native Isaan people speak Lao?

[Thaddeus]

Speaking Lao is different. Anyone know what percentage of native Isaan people speak Lao?

Around this area the split is about 80/20 between Laos and Khmer, which is odd considering our proximity to Cambodia.

Thaksin, irrespective of what you think of him, was the first leader of this country that actually gave something back to the people of Isaan. They may be uneducated, but they are not stupid, they understand about corruption, they face it daily and view any political force as being corrupt, makes no difference what the name is.

So far, the current powers that be, have done nothing for these people, ongoing projects have either slowed or ground to a halt, the roads are un-repaired and there is a general feeling of apathy and disillusionment throughout the teachers, hospital workers, amphur staff etc.

The corruption is still there, and this time it isn't benefiting them and in most respects it's harming them...... of course there was going to be an overwhelming no vote. They didn't need to read the new document, the simple fact that it was created by a force that cares little about these people ensures that.

The only thing that it has to do with history is the cycle of, military, new constitution, elected party, new constitution, military ..... repeat ad nauseam.

How many more times that cycle needs to repeat before something really cracks is the real issue.

[roietjimmy]

Speaking Lao is different. Anyone know what percentage of native Isaan people speak Lao?

What we often call Lao as it relates to Isaan people's language is not Lao. It is known officially as Northeastern Thai, better known as Isaan. Most Isaan speakers cannot understand the Lao languge even though they are related. Some Isaan people get quite irritated when the term Lao is used either in relation to language or ethnicty as it implies "low class".

To your question:

There are 16 languages spoken in Isaan. Population numbers are about 10 years old but figure % are about the same now.

Northeastern Thai (Isaan) - 15,000,000 - 87.39%

Northern Khmer (Khmer Lue) - 1,117,588 - 6.51%

Thai (Khorat Thai) - 400,000 - 2.33%

Kuy (Suai) - 300,000 - 1.75%

Remaining 12 all less than 1% each - 2.02%

btw: There are 51,000 who use Thai Sign Language in Thailand. They are all in the business of selling trinkets and ripoff tee shirts to tourists.

Aren't you glad you asked.

[Thaddeus]

Aren't you glad you asked.

I'm sure he is .... but it is worth noting that the vast majority of people that speak pa sah Isaan when questioned will state that they are speaking pa sah Laos, they truly believe that, it's only when they get the opportunity to visit Laos when they find out that it isn't the same language, and so few get that opportunity.

Wifey used to think that she and the rest of her family spoke perfect pa sah Laos....... until we went there ..... it took her about 30 minutes to assimilate the differences and then she got along just fine.

The language of Isaan is Laos based, it just has some different pronunciations and quite a few embedded Thai words that wouldn't be understood by a pure Laotian.

Yer areet cock, sithee tamara (it's still English Jim, but not as we know it )

[roietjimmy]

Aren't you glad you asked.

I'm sure he is .... but it is worth noting that the vast majority of people that speak pa sah Isaan when questioned will state that they are speaking pa sah Laos, they truly believe that, it's only when they get the opportunity to visit Laos when they find out that it isn't the same language, and so few get that opportunity.

Wifey used to think that she and the rest of her family spoke perfect pa sah Laos....... until we went there ..... it took her about 30 minutes to assimilate the differences and then she got along just fine.

The language of Isaan is Laos based, it just has some different pronunciations and quite a few embedded Thai words that wouldn't be understood by a pure Laotian.

Yer areet cock, sithee tamara (it's still English Jim, but not as we know it )

Agree, the people in my village always use the term "pa sah Lao" as the language they speak. Seems only the "elites" get excited about using the term. Isaan, Lao and Thai languages have much in common and as you say, given a little time and effort, they can communicate. Often it is the cadence and accents rather than the actual words that are different.

"Yer areet cock, sithee tamara". Derbyshire?

[jukapot]

As once explained to me the Issan are ethnic Lao who's ancestors were relocated from Vientiane to Thailand about 200 years ago. My wife comes from a small village outside Nongkhai where to this day they speak Lao, eat Lao cooking, and follow Lao Traditions. They are ethnically Lao but very proud to be Thai subjects.

My wife and grown children were back in thailand last winter. Since my wife's first language is Lao so I asked her if she noticed any changes in the Language. She said positively no - and least not in the small villages. I asked my Lao and Thai freinds of 40 years who are now in the states, and they also said no change.

I worked in Vientiane from 1968 thru 1973 and spoke a decent Lao. Back then there really was no border. The Lao and Thai freely traveled back and forth accross the river. Many had ID papers for both countries. Families were frequently split between the two countries. In the remote areas I often saw houses with pictures of both Kings, the residents weren't really sure which one was their's. No wonder the customs and Language remained unchanged.

Today with a fixed boundry and limited cross traffic I would expect to see differences in the Language, especially in the larger cities like Udorn and Nongkhai which have more Thai influence. I was talking with my wife's nephew on the phone several months ago. I made a comment about his speaking Lao when he was very quick to correct me by saying he spoke pasa issan not Lao. I felt that he was denying his Lao heritage because the Lao are too often looked down upon by the Thai.

Oh well I'll have a chance this winter to see for my self when I visit both Vientiane and Laos. Since my hearing has gotten pretty bad in the last 40 years and my language skills are a bit rusty, I probably won't notice if everyone spoke German to me !!!

While in Thailand, my son called and told me about his trip to Laos and how wonderful the Lao people were. I reminded him his mom was Issan but ethnically Lao and now he can appreciate and be proud of his Lao ethnic background.

[citizen33]

A few people have mentioned pa-sah Isaan/Lao, and I think most could agree that the separate language is associated with a different cultural identity. The question is whether that translates into a different political outlook. My impression is that cultural identity in Isaan is a complex mix of pride in aspects of regional music, dance, humour, folkways and the like, and awareness of low status, even stigmatisation, in Thai society, and that this may well translate into different voting behaviour. As Jukapot implies, this is partly a result of the different history of the NE and its relationship to Laos. Thaddeus mentions the cycle of coups, re-written constitutions and new elections as the aspect of history from which most people are trying to escape. But this is not an answer to the question of why Isaan is different, since these developments have affected the whole Kingdom. To the extent that Thaddeus hints at an answer, Isaan is different because it has been materially disadvantaged and hasn't had its fair share of national resources. But couldn't one say that this is related in turn to the way the central Thais view the people of Isaan, and thus back to the first issue?

[Asian Frog]

Most of Issan people are very low income... The price of Rubber has fallen drastically since a year...they are facing increased difficulties. Is it linked to the Political change? I do not know but Issan people are associating the facts.

[Thaddeus]

Thaddeus mentions the cycle of coups, re-written constitutions and new elections as the aspect of history from which most people are trying to escape. But this is not an answer to the question of why Isaan is different, since these developments have affected the whole Kingdom. To the extent that Thaddeus hints at an answer, Isaan is different because it has been materially disadvantaged and hasn't had its fair share of national resources. But couldn't one say that this is related in turn to the way the central Thais view the people of Isaan, and thus back to the first issue?

Agreed..... and here we come to the crux.

As far as I am aware the people of Isaan have always been treated as factory fodder or cheap labour by the richer central Thais..... fact of life...... and I'm sure that historically they viewed their vote as pretty pointless, it didn't matter who got in, who seized power, who re-wrote what. It had little or no effect on their day to day life, food on the table, rain in the sky, mai pben rai

It was only the last elected government that promised them something and actually delivered on more than a couple of promises and there is now a little confusion reigning. This road splits two ways, the next party to govern Thailand will have to make promises to the people of Isaan, if it delivers, they will be in control for a long time (until the next coup in fact) If they don't deliver, we just go back to planting rice, breeding farm-stock and saying mai pben rai ..... and Thailand will forever be a third world country.

[XiengHai]

Hmmm, i talk to many Isan ppl, and they acknowledge that Isan are Lao, maybe around bangkok ppl they say one thing, and around Lao ppl they say another thing.

but i dont know how anyone can over look the historical records here to simply answer this question, which shouldnt even be debated. The whole population of what was the Kingdom of Vientiane, from which u included all of the Khorat Plateau/Isaan region, the whole population on the east bank of the Mekong was moved on to the West bank to what is Isaan. saying doesnt necassarly mean its true, there is opinion and what we are willing to think as our selves as, and then u have reality.

but Isaan ppl can say they are Thai of course because their nation is Thailand, they are Thai ppl without a doubt, but ethnicly and culturally they are Lao.

just as the Nothern ppl of Thailand are Thai ppl, because they live in a nation called Thailand, but as the Isaan ppl, ethnicly they are Lao also.

but anyway, Thai Language is basicly Lao language which is 70%-80% and Khmer Language 20%30%.

so there shouldnt be any problem communicating with one another, with a few changes in some letters, like thais use more of the "R" and "L" letters inplace of lao words that use more of the "H" letter, "CH" for "X", "V" or "W", etc. but they are basicly the same word,

but the ppl of Isaan are the largest ethnic group in Thailand, so shouldnt that aquate to them having the most political influence, maybe they should be better organized?

[AiLao]

Here is what I've found from Mahidol University by Kritsana Athapanyawanit

" A Tonal Study of Lao Dialect in Kanchanaburi Province"

Lao dialect are spoken not only around the Thailand~Lao border and in the province of Northeastern Thailand (Isan) but also in various province in the Central region of Thailand. This study investigates a Central Lao dialect, namely, Kanchanaburi Lao dialect. The study locations are Rangwan village, Tambon Thasao, Amphoe Thamaka and U~long village, Tambon Thakhanun, Amphoe Thongphaphoom. The data were collected from six native Lao informants from sixty to ninety years of age.

Comparative Linguistics

Moderator: Elly van Gelderen, Department of English, Arizona State University

[technocracy]

I thought I replied to this to give a Lao viewpoint, since my wife and family are Laotian and still here in Laos.

From a Lao viewpoint Issan residents are Laotians - separated purely by the Thai border and the fact that the area several hundred years ago used to be part of Laos add to this.

The differences between Bangkokian Thai and Laos are distinct - very distinct to point that someone who only understand one of them won't understand the other. A majority of the nouns used in the languages are the same however not all, nearly all adjectives etc are different. Lao also does not use the female and male classifiers.

To me I can only speak Lao - I cannot understand hardly anything 'Royal Thai'. However the difference between Issan and Laos isn't so great and unlike stated previously an issan speaker will easily understand Lao. My wife when visiting Udon or Nong Khai speaks Lao pretty much all the time unless in formal situations i.e. hospitals etc. Also when I ask for things in Lao in restuarants or shop etc I never have a problem with people understanding, unlike when I am in Bangkok.

Issan folks as previous stated also say they are Lao whenever my wife is talking with them - as said if a Bangkok Thai talks maybe they say they are Thai - dunno!

I think the big difference between Lao and Thai-Issan people is the fact that Lao people are 100% proud to be Lao and everything that goes with it food, religion etc etc. Whereas Thai-Issan are split, and in my opinion the Bangkokian Thais are fast losing there identity and culture to consumerism. Funny that nearly all Issan people who my wife speaks with who have visited Laos always comments about how delicious the food is here. Which always causes me a wry smile as I remember several yesterday ago reading that 'bastion*' of travel reading 'The Lonely Planet' stating something along the lines of 'Lao food in comparison to Thailand is bland and tasteless!'

* In my opinion they are the bastian of talking <deleted>!

[bannork]

Issan is losing a lot of its youth to Chonburi, Bangkok and the South, ie Koh Samui, Phuket,etc.

I don't know who is going to plant the rice in our family or my wife's relatives in 20 years as the young have left the farming life behind for factories and service industries. Rice fields are turning into eucalyptus, sugarcane and rubber plantations.

I'm sure many will settle down where they work now, some will buy houses but some will save to return home to Issan and open businesses, small shops there.

There's a lot of fluidity, movement these days, but the heart of Issan is still strong, as anyone who has lived in a village can recognise. For Issan is vast, you can live in a village on a dirt road off the main road and less than 5 vehicles may pass per hour. There's the space to live life freely, plant what you want, breed what you want, walk your cows or buffaloes down the main drag at 9am.

A life the kids in Bangkok have no idea of with their lives limited to computer games and shopping malls. Imagine growing up and never having climbed a tree, ridden a bicycle carefreely and spent all day off with your friends digging for crabs.

That rural identity of Issan will not disappear easily, it's just too big with so many villages, and neither will the wonderful music and language\dialect. It's just a crying shame they've been cheated by job brokers, businessmen, politicians and civil servants for so long. Education is a vital key for self development.

[Asian Frog]

Issan is losing a lot of its youth to Chonburi, Bangkok and the South, ie Koh Samui, Phuket,etc.

I don't know who is going to plant the rice in our family or my wife's relatives in 20 years as the young have left the farming life behind for factories and service industries. Rice fields are turning into eucalyptus, sugarcane and rubber plantations.

I'm sure many will settle down where they work now, some will buy houses but some will save to return home to Issan and open businesses, small shops there.

There's a lot of fluidity, movement these days, but the heart of Issan is still strong, as anyone who has lived in a village can recognise. For Issan is vast, you can live in a village on a dirt road off the main road and less than 5 vehicles may pass per hour. There's the space to live life freely, plant what you want, breed what you want, walk your cows or buffaloes down the main drag at 9am.

A life the kids in Bangkok have no idea of with their lives limited to computer games and shopping malls. Imagine growing up and never having climbed a tree, ridden a bicycle carefreely and spent all day off with your friends digging for crabs.

That rural identity of Issan will not disappear easily, it's just too big with so many villages, and neither will the wonderful music and language\dialect. It's just a crying shame they've been cheated by job brokers, businessmen, politicians and civil servants for so long. Education is a vital key for self development.

Interesting post but I disagree with your conclusion, in my family in law (Siwilai) youngs want to live like in town, at 12 they begin to woirk in Pattaya or Bangkok (Small jobs), they want a mobile, want the last motorbike, are gambling and also gaming with internet.... The bads from the Cities are invading the rural areas. Their "rural identity" will disappear quicker than you are estimating.

I agree on Education, but it is conditional: parents and educators must be on the same frequency. We have observed in western countries that children from labour classes were handicapped because of the lack of support and understanding at home (Parents working and not able to help or structure the learning process) and that children from middle and upper classes have a definitive advantage.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Asian Frog

[XiengHai]

To me I can only speak Lao - I cannot understand hardly anything 'Royal Thai'. However the difference between Issan and Laos isn't so great and unlike stated previously an issan speaker will easily understand Lao. My wife when visiting Udon or Nong Khai speaks Lao pretty much all the time unless in formal situations i.e. hospitals etc. Also when I ask for things in Lao in restuarants or shop etc I never have a problem with people understanding, unlike when I am in Bangkok.

Issan folks as previous stated also say they are Lao whenever my wife is talking with them - as said if a Bangkok Thai talks maybe they say they are Thai - dunno!

I think the big difference between Lao and Thai-Issan people is the fact that Lao people are 100% proud to be Lao and everything that goes with it food, religion etc etc. Whereas Thai-Issan are split, and in my opinion the Bangkokian Thais are fast losing there identity and culture to consumerism. Funny that nearly all Issan people who my wife speaks with who have visited Laos always comments about how delicious the food is here. Which always causes me a wry smile as I remember several yesterday ago reading that 'bastion*' of travel reading 'The Lonely Planet' stating something along the lines of 'Lao food in comparison to Thailand is bland and tasteless!'

* In my opinion they are the bastian of talking <deleted>!

i think the answer can be put also as, "Is Northern Thailand Different Also?"

but i hear many times that Laos is being too influence by thailand, and soon Laos will lose its culture.

but the fact of the matter is, Thailand is losing more of its identity, the ppl of the different regions, especially NOthern THailand and Isaan , are speaking more of their native tongue, and the fastest growing, most popular type of music these days, is Lukthong which is basicly Lao music and morlum.

so im concluding that Thailand is becoming more and more like Laos, culturally, rather then Laos is trending towards Thailand. culturally speaking, not in the modernizing sense. 10 years from now, thailand will look so much different, if someone was put into a time capsule, and awaken 10 years from now, they would not reconize the nation as we see it today.

but Isaan is more likely to become an independent state, like someone posted, rather then ever be apart of Laos again. and seeing the way things are going in thailand, one wonders if that wont happen sooner then later.

[technocracy]

i think the answer can be put also as, "Is Northern Thailand Different Also?"

but i hear many times that Laos is being too influence by thailand, and soon Laos will lose its culture.

but the fact of the matter is, Thailand is losing more of its identity, the ppl of the different regions, especially NOthern THailand and Isaan , are speaking more of their native tongue, and the fastest growing, most popular type of music these days, is Lukthong which is basicly Lao music and morlum.

so im concluding that Thailand is becoming more and more like Laos, culturally, rather then Laos is trending towards Thailand. culturally speaking, not in the modernizing sense. 10 years from now, thailand will look so much different, if someone was put into a time capsule, and awaken 10 years from now, they would not reconize the nation as we see it today.

but Isaan is more likely to become an independent state, like someone posted, rather then ever be apart of Laos again. and seeing the way things are going in thailand, one wonders if that wont happen sooner then later.

On the note of Laos being influenced by Thailand - this is true but only to a certain point. Such as watching the TV shows and music. Otherwise the true divide in personal feeling between Lao and Thailand will never alter. Much in the same way as the English and Scottish will never really see eye to eye due to there being so much bad blood between the countries previously.

Whenever we get together with the wifes family there is always some kind of jokes going around regarding Thai people, in short Thai don't like Lao and the feeling is mutual! Although in Laos they don't go out of there way to show it, my wife however has been made to feel uncomfortable on numerous occasion when visiting Bangkok.

As for Issan becoming a state - theoretically it could happen however they have the same issues that Scotland and Wales had when separating themselves politically from England, they rely too much on Bangkok and separating themselves would only cause problems because of it. Would Udon become the capital? In reality I don't think it would happen.

[XiengHai]

I agree with you, just kicking dirt around,

they say its lao ppl who have the tendancy to talk bad about thai, but i have notice its the opposite

Lao and thai ppl attend the same Wat in my home town,

and its funny to see these lower class Thai ladies, attempting to look down upon the Lao ppl, who make 10x the money she does, live in $500,000 homes and drive Benz's?

and she goes rambling on about lao ppl, its mostly out of ignorance of course,

U then have the other Higher class Thai ppl, who are more educated, now starting to look down on these ladies, hoping she would shut up because she is making the rest of them look bad.

[citizen33]

I think the answer can be put also as, "Is Northern Thailand Different Also?"

Every region has its distinctive character, but the starting point of the thread was that only Isaan voted 'no' to the draft constitution, raising the questions of 'Why Isaan?' and 'Is Isaan different?' Northern Region voted 'yes', just like Paak Dtai and Paak Glang.

[farangfool]

I think to use official Thai definitions concerning language and history is absurd. Thai nationalism, if not racism, was much influenced by Germans, especially in the 1930s, and they developed a rather radical brand of that ideology. Changing the country's name from siam to thailand is just one example. But even before the Thai governments employed most brutal methods against subject peoples. While every Thai will give you a lecture on Burmese and the burning of Ayuthaya, they are sadly ignorant about the total destruction of Champassak, Vientiane, and Chiang Saen (etc.etc). The Chiang Saen people, those who survived, were deported to Lampang, Sariburi, and Sae Keow provinces. If you read Thai Tourisim Authority brochures you will find rather unpleasantly language in their material on Nonkhai. They describe how Budda figures were "invited" from Vientiane to the new Thai city of Nonkhai. Well, we may call this plundering. The word invited was, by the way, also used for the deportation of Muslim elites from the south to Bangkok in the early 20th century.

Back to Tourism. Visiting the Roi Et Museum you will learn that Chengla and other Khmer temples are actually Thai products under "Khmer" cultural influence, which is amazing that Thai culture reigned in this area even before the arrival of Thais in the wider region. This is not a thai bimbo movie star talking about angkor, it is the state. You will find the same kind of history faking as a common feature of authoritarian governments around the world. To be sure, the Tourism Authority had a wonderful brochure on lower Isan and the Khmer culture which went out of print quickly and was not reproduced. Perhaps it was too authentic. Many educated Thais despise this tampering with history.

In Surin I spoke to a retired teacher . She is Khmer and she was very clear that her "homeland/fatherland" is Cambodia and her tradition is that of Angkor. I could add dozends of other examples. The Khmers of Surin have a very strong identity and the creation of Thai/Siamese symbols like thai stile temples in their city does not go unanswered. Just have a look at some undergoing construction. There is a language in local architecture that cannot escape your eyes. Laos/Isan people nearby confirm this impression.

Cultural imperialism was also exercised in That Panom after the collapse of the original chedi. The Fine Arts Department rebuild the chedi, like others...., in Thai stile and not the original Laos stile. It is like putting an orthodox church on, say a south Italian Roman basilica. So the attempt of wiping out Laos identity is sanctioned and ongoing.

What about origins?:

Roit for instance, depended on the Champassak dynasty. A short look at the foundation and immigration/settlement throughout Isan will show you that most people do actually now where their group/tribal confederation came from in Laos or even Vietnam (think of the Suay or Pu Thais). People in Chayapum will confirm that they consider themselves laos but also hill tribe. Most people refers here to the community and not each individual - the carriers of memory perform a community service. it is not daily knowledge so it remains specialized but available. Maybe that's a reason why local Khmer temples are often rather less important to the community, it is not "their" temple.

i once spoke to a teacher from Kanchanaburi. She always claimed to be Thai and later told me that she is from Isan and Lao speaker. Admitting anything else but being Thai would have contradicted her obligations as a government employee. So, educated people often are forced in assuming an official Thai identity that excludes their isan/laos/khmer identity. The differences in the Laos dialects of isan are not really surprising and do not establish them as a distinct language at all.

Official surpression of these distinct cultural traditions certainly does not go without effect. The insurgency of the 1960s and 1970s let isan farmers emerge as a subject of US sponsored anthropology like similar studies covered vietnam. Study, understand, kill. But such politics are bound to fail unless genocide comes into play. This was in Isan not an option, unlike the total bombardments in Laos.

In sum, Isan unhappiness with bangkok politics is probably rather old and not just an expression of poverty. Strong cultural traditions and a good memory work a long time. So supporting a northern man against the center had some appeal. Money certainly helps, but it cant explain such fast arising, vast, and lasting support. Taksin cashed in on that regional sentiment despite his own primitive thai nationalism. Being corrupt as Taksin certainly is and all know, this might have mollified his nationalist credentials. It was a front for this chinese businessman and we will learn more about it day by day.

Now the same old elites have full control again. Literally their physical ancestors (200-300 yrs ago) conquered the Laotian and Khmer provinces and ruled them a feudal lords pressing out the tribute. So, who could expect that the junta boss is more loved than his great-great-etc. grandfather?

On a general note, as far as I can see the referendum was turned down by a majority of thais. Many did not show up as a sign of opposition. So the 30+ % the military got is something they might celebrate but they are throwing sand into their own eyes.

[technocracy]

FF - Very good post.

I've never seen Thai Tourism leaflets the 'invited' phase is very amusing, I guess the Emerald Buddha from Wat Pa Keo in Vientiane is on the invited list also!

As for Thai's and there ignorance of Lao people here's an example: me and the wife recently flew back from Australia and we were stopping over for a few night in Bangkok before heading up to Vientiane. Nearing the end of the flight the a stewardess came around with the Arrivals cards - and she gave me one, I said I need two, she said but she doesn't need one as she is Thai. So I replied 'No she isn't Thai, she is Laos', the look on her face was a picture a cross between confusion and shock, she then said I thought she was Thai as she looks Thai!

So exactly what does your average Thai person believe an average Lao person looks like?

We've been through this kind of thing on numerous occasion when visiting BKK - it seem so difficult for them to understand that an average Lao person looks like a Thai person.

[roietjimmy]

FF - Very good post.

We've been through this kind of thing on numerous occasion when visiting BKK - it seem so difficult for them to understand that an average Lao person looks like a Thai person.

Yes, it is amazing given the largest group of Thais are of Lao descent. This is what is giving the "elite" Thai lobby fits. Their idea of "Thainess" is everyone speak, act and look like the relatively small group which sprung out of central Thailand to eventually control what is now Thailand. Aside from the government "education" policies, these folks have carried the idea of Thainess to the extreme. Recently they made a big issue out of the costume a former Miss Universe chose to wear at an event in Chiang Mai stating, "it misrepresented Thai tradition". Turns out it was representative of northern Thai traditional dress or hill people, I'm not sure. Point here being, this whole emphasis on rigid conformance to Thainess would be comical if inot for the consequences of alienating a vast majority of Thai Nationals. It is understandable that a single language and a set of national laws are essential to the function of a modern nation but cultural diversity and tradition should be encouraged rather than suppressed or ridiculed.

Edited August 30, 2007 by roietjimmy

[farangfool]

I think it is important to keep in mind we are in a country that never explicitly accepted the equality of all of its citizens. And, unlike in Britain, this is impacts the legal system to an extend that appears to be antiquated at least in western eyes. So this imposition is systematic and serves a purpose: As long as there is a standard, someone defines it. Better not to spin this thought further on...

The distinct Isaan traditions are perhaps most visible in popular Isan music. They adapted western elements of dance and integrated it into a distinct brand or performance. That there is something like an Isan "western" and "eastern" can anyone observe riding a 2nd class aircon bus out of morchit to isan. In that sense Isan culture is evolving and not just fading away.

BKK friends of mine are very aware of their Isan roots and not shy about it, once it is clear that I do not share certain chauvinistic views. My khmer friends anyhow laugh at those thais who stole the royal ballet and court language. So khmers with some education do have a sense of superiority that is also reflected by provincial businessmen in lower Isan.

The understanding of marital relations and mutual obligations (I know it a little from Laotian families in Sisaket province) are somewhat different from Thais and definitely more so from Thai Chinese. In Sisaket province, Isan women appear to have their own customary law rights in relation to education of children etc.

That Isan elites have to conform with the dress-codes of the Bangkok elites is partly owed to the militaristic structure and heritage of the whole state administration. Wearing a uniform is big deal here. The territorial organization resembles also centralistic/military traditions that do not necessarily reflect demographic, geographic of ecological conditions. The inclusion of Isan districts into Sa Keow province suggests also some gerrymandering.

I strongly believe someone with a good command of language and various dialects will be amazed by the diversity of Isan and the extend of rural and local traditions. We ignorant foreigners are equating familiar symbols of consumer culture (Toyata cars, Tesco, KFC etc) too quickly with assimilation. You wont find many people wearing traditional dress in Scotland, Bavaria, or Sicily anymore, but that does not mean that the culture has disappeared. On the contrary, Isan has preserved some remarkable examples of rural production, crafts etc.

[Messmann]

Interesting...

Before Laos was a part of Siam.

Many old people (50 years and up) in Isaan do not read or write Thai, They speak Thai but mostly Isaan (Lao).

People under 50 years old read and write Thai because of the present school system. Many speak Isaan (Lao) if their family live in the small villages.

Young people 20 years old in the big cities in Isaan hardly understand Lao.

Nobody can change the history. There are too many facts...

Pls read and don't feel you are flamed...

Franco-Siamese War of 1893

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The Franco-Siamese War of 1893 was a conflict between France and the Kingdom of Siam. Fighting broke out in April 1893 and ended quickly after French naval forces blockaded Bangkok. The Siamese agreed to cede Laos to France, an act that led to the significant expansion of French Indochina.

European powers began travelling to Thailand in the 16th century. Despite European pressure, Thailand is the only Southeast Asian country never to have been colonised by a European power. The two main reasons for this is that Thailand had a long succession of very able rulers in the 1800s and that it was able to exploit the rivalry and tension between the French and the British. As a result, the country remained as a buffer state between parts of Southeast Asia that were colonised by the two European colonial powers. Despite this, Western influence led to many reforms in the 19th century and major concessions to British trading interests. This included the loss of the three predominantly ethnic Malay southern provinces, which later became Malaysia's three northern states. However, another ethnic Malay province named Pattani, now subdivided further into four smaller districts, has remained as Siamese territory to this day.

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/ayutthaya28.html

The Royal European Progress began in Italy on May 14, 1897 and, after meeting with the Italian King and His Holiness the Pope, King Chulalongkorn moved on to Switzerland, Austria and Hungary before catching up with his friend Tsar Nicholas II at the Peterhof. Throughout his journey, European Crowned Heads and Presidents of Republics welcomed the Siamese King royally, graciously and warmly. Sweden, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Portugal were all captivated by the slightly built Siamese Monarch. The Prince of Wales officially welcomed King Chulalongkorn for his five week visit to Great Britain during which he toured extensively and called on Her Majesty Queen Victoria at her Isle of Wight residence (the elderly Queen was preparing for her Diamond Jubilee). Another call was to visit his son who was being educated at Harrow a noted English "public" school.

As it happened, such were the strains between Siam and the French Republic, France had not been included in the Royal itinerary. However, having heard of the magnificent receptions accorded to King Chulalongkorn by other European Heads of State, President Faure of France sent his presidential train to Brussels (where King Chulalongkorn had been visiting King Leopold II) to invite and embark the Siamese King.

The reception in France, on 11 September 1897, was magnificently regal and wherever he went King Chulalongkorn was cheered by the French people Versailles, the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre and, indeed, Longchamps horse races were all graced by visits from King Rama V. The ordinary people of France were heart-warmed by King Chulalongkorn (and by his gifts to the poor of Paris) but the Government of France never returned the Siamese territory it had taken. But, thanks to these eminently successful State Visits, France could not risk censure and the embarrassment of further bullying tactics. Siamese territorial losses were stemmed!

After visiting fourteen European countries and making many important connections, His Majesty King Chulalong korn, Rama V returned to Siam in the latter part of 1897. Success had been heaped upon success and, in a speech to his Nobles, Government and people, the Siamese King declared "I am determined to do everything in my power to make Siam a free and progressive country". And he did!

The French-Thai War (1940 - 1941) was fought between Thailand and Vichy France over certain areas of French Indochina that had once belonged to Thailand.

Negotiations with France shortly before World War II had shown that the French government was willing to make minor changes in the boundaries between Thailand and French Indochina. Following the Fall of France in 1940, Major-General Plaek Pibulsonggram (popularly known as "Phibun"), the Prime Minister of Thailand, decided that France's defeat gave the Thais an even better chance to regain the territories they had lost during King Chulalongkorn's reign.

The collapse of Metropolitan France obviously made the French hold on Indochina tenuous. The isolated colonial administration was cut off from outside help and outside supplies. After the Japanese invasion of French Indochina in September, 1940, the French were forced to allow the Japanese to set up military bases. This seemingly subservient behavior convinced the Phibun regime that Vichy France would not seriously resist a confrontation with Thailand.

After the war, in October 1946, western Cambodia and the two Lao enclaves were only returned to French sovereignty after the French provisional government threatened to veto Thailand's membership in the United Nations.

Pls comment.

[Messmann]

I forgot a map:

[phibunmike]

Agree, the people in my village always use the term "pa sah Lao" as the language they speak. Seems only the "elites" get excited about using the term. Isaan, Lao and Thai languages have much in common and as you say, given a little time and effort, they can communicate. Often it is the cadence and accents rather than the actual words that are different.

I don't want to take this thread off track from the interesting main discussion, but just a quick point about language...

My wife, though not an "elite", makes a clear differentiation between Laos and "pa sah Isaan". Indeed, the Laos words and phrasing is often quite different to Laos. So I don't agree that it is an elitist stand point, but rather one based in fact, the two languages (or dialects) are different. Perhaps in your area it is a purer form of Laos that is spoken, and that might explain the difference.

[XiengHai]

I think the answer can be put also as, "Is Northern Thailand Different Also?"

Every region has its distinctive character, but the starting point of the thread was that only Isaan voted 'no' to the draft constitution, raising the questions of 'Why Isaan?' and 'Is Isaan different?' Northern Region voted 'yes', just like Paak Dtai and Paak Glang.

Yes the NOrthern region vote was very close, but chiangrai, Nan, and other the eastern provinces closet to Laos, voted No.

One difference is that, even though Nothern regions are mainly ethnic Laotians, they(LanNa) for the most part has always been considered a seperate Lao Kingdom, vs LanChang, were as Isaan was always apart of the one Kingdom(LanChang) that is today called Laos.

Edited August 31, 2007 by XiengHai

[roietjimmy]

Agree, the people in my village always use the term "pa sah Lao" as the language they speak. Seems only the "elites" get excited about using the term. Isaan, Lao and Thai languages have much in common and as you say, given a little time and effort, they can communicate. Often it is the cadence and accents rather than the actual words that are different.

I don't want to take this thread off track from the interesting main discussion, but just a quick point about language...

My wife, though not an "elite", makes a clear differentiation between Laos and "pa sah Isaan". Indeed, the Laos words and phrasing is often quite different to Laos. So I don't agree that it is an elitist stand point, but rather one based in fact, the two languages (or dialects) are different. Perhaps in your area it is a purer form of Laos that is spoken, and that might explain the difference.

Agree, see my post #6. My wife, also far from an "elite" says the same as your wife. I shall refrain from using the term "elite" in the future. Let me say there are people who are not offended when "pa sah Issan" is referred to as "pah sa Lao" and others that are. It seems there are others who have posted here that do not agree they are separate dialects so there is clearly a difference of opinion based on a particular region.