Thailands History

[meadish_sweetball]

The wikipedia article seems brief. This was the only comment on world war two: "During the war, Thailand was allied with Japan." Recently I asked a dinner table full of Thai ajarns (who don't teach history) whether Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Army during the war. They insisted no, and I dropped the subject like a hot chili pepper. However, wasn't there something about a death railroad built on the River Kwai in Kanchanaburi? Didn't the Thai ambassador bring a declaration of war to Secretary Hull (the USA's secretary of state, foreign affairs minister), and Hull ignored it?

Thailand was allied with Japan when Japan 'set up office' here. You could debate whether it was an 'invasion' or 'occupation' or something agreed to freely. It is a very touchy subject just as you noticed.

As for the declaration of war, it was kept in the breast pocket by the Thai ambassador and never actually delivered. (Source: In Search of South East Asia.)

EDIT: Should have read the end of the thread, I see these things have already been answered.

[PeaceBlondie]

The death railway, occupation of Thailand during ww2, a clandestine Free Thailand movement, and Allies bombing Bangkok? Yet, these Thai ajarns blankly rejected my casual suggestion that the Japanese had occupied Thailand! And I thought deNile was a river in Egypt....

[Mid]

keep digging , have you come to the brits 'n the south post war ??

[SqdnGuns]

Didn't the Thai ambassador bring a declaration of war to Secretary Hull (the USA's secretary of state, foreign affairs minister), and Hull ignored it?

If I recall correctly, the Thai Ambassador refused to deliver it to Secretary Hull.

[lazeeboy]

I think it is very easy to criticize how other countries present their history and forget the lies, about our own country's history, we soaked up from history books in school. You only have to look at the drunken Brit on holiday singing 'Rule Britannia' or the drunken Paddy as he cries into his beer, while singing rebel songs, or the load American who informs everyone who will listen how we 'saved your asses' during WW2, to realize that all the history we have learned has been just a tool of manipulation. I don't think LOS should be singled out for criticism as it is just doing what every other country in the world does.

well said garro

[ColPyat]

http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/20378

Thanks Emperor Tud - good read :-)

Sorry to disagree. But i found that a rather simplistic piece without much context and a few outright offensive remarks, such as:

"One cannot help but feel nostalgia for the so-called Good War and America's Golden Age, soon to founder on the shores of Korea and Vietnam. "

Eh, yes, of course, i don't think that there are many participants and victims of that war who feel anything but pure horror. And America's role in that war was a bit more complex as well. Read the who is who of which American industrialists were indicted in the trading with the enemy act, and the still ongoing trials and investigations against American industries that have worked very well together with the Nazis, with full knowledge of the Holocaust.

It would be rather important to read also what happened to Pridi, who was an elemental leader of Seri Thai, after the war. Until today Thailand's maybe greatest visionary has not yet been fully rehabilitated. He died in exile, after having been accused of a crime he did not commit.

[Payboy]

Thailand was allied with Japan when Japan 'set up office' here. You could debate whether it was an 'invasion' or 'occupation' or something agreed to freely. It is a very touchy subject just as you noticed.

something was agreed - but it certainly wasn't "freely" or "free".... we could also keep digging for japanese gold ingots in caves around the river kwai - but i suspect most of that golds' in good hands now......

by the way - if it wasn't for allied forces, a handful of regional leaders with backbone and strong resistance in "some" countries, most of asia would be singing the kimigayo today....

Edited August 27, 2007 by Payboy

[Prakanong]

I don't think it is possible to get a correct history about any country.

History is constantly rewritten to explain where we are today.

I prefer personal histories such as those provided by Kalama.

I think the best critique of history was provided by Tolstoy in 'War and Peace'.

He argued that every single person on the planet takes part in any historical event but only the view of a powerful minority ever gets heard and this we call history.

It may have been when Tolstoy was writing his tome but its not true today as its researched and taught as decent Univeristy history doepartments.

[Prakanong]

The death railway, occupation of Thailand during ww2, a clandestine Free Thailand movement, and Allies bombing Bangkok? Yet, these Thai ajarns blankly rejected my casual suggestion that the Japanese had occupied Thailand! And I thought deNile was a river in Egypt....

Its amazing how much many educated thai's just do not know about their country and its history.

A good friend and colleague of mine was brought up in Canada and educated there before moving back to Thailand. She is in quite a senior research position for our company. When we were in India earlier this year myself and some aussie guys were talking about Thai stuff in front of her at the hotel.

She really did not know about lots of things includin 73, 76 and 92. She asked her mother later her told her lots of stuff and she was amazed.

[garro]

Thailand was allied with Japan when Japan 'set up office' here. You could debate whether it was an 'invasion' or 'occupation' or something agreed to freely. It is a very touchy subject just as you noticed.

something was agreed - but it certainly wasn't "freely" or "free".... we could also keep digging for japanese gold ingots in caves around the river kwai - but i suspect most of that golds' in good hands now......

by the way - if it wasn't for allied forces, a handful of regional leaders with backbone and strong resistance in "some" countries, most of asia would be singing the kimigayo today....

Sorry Payboy, but I think saying that if this didn't happen it would mean that would have happened is a very weak way of analysing history. An uncountable number of factors are involved in the occurence of any event. A similar proposition would be; if boats hadn't been invented Sadam Hussain would still be in power''. This may sound absurd but I don't think it is any more absurd than your proposition.

The fact that Japan lost the war could be equally attributed to Hitler and the fact if Nazi scientists had not made so much progess in developing a nuclear weapon the war with Japan might still be going on.

Edited August 27, 2007 by garro

[ColPyat]

The death railway, occupation of Thailand during ww2, a clandestine Free Thailand movement, and Allies bombing Bangkok? Yet, these Thai ajarns blankly rejected my casual suggestion that the Japanese had occupied Thailand! And I thought deNile was a river in Egypt....

Its amazing how much many educated thai's just do not know about their country and its history.

A good friend and colleague of mine was brought up in Canada and educated there before moving back to Thailand. She is in quite a senior research position for our company. When we were in India earlier this year myself and some aussie guys were talking about Thai stuff in front of her at the hotel.

She really did not know about lots of things includin 73, 76 and 92. She asked her mother later her told her lots of stuff and she was amazed.

Especially '76 is not taught in school, and only taught in University by some Ajarns in relevant subjects. Most Thais are not aware of what happened in '76, and who was involved. The '92 investigations are still kept secret.

Contemporary Thai history is a very touchy subject, making historians and political scientists an endangered species here. It is amazing to which lengths such researchers have to go to make their papers cryptic enough to be able to keep on working.

[Prakanong]

The death railway, occupation of Thailand during ww2, a clandestine Free Thailand movement, and Allies bombing Bangkok? Yet, these Thai ajarns blankly rejected my casual suggestion that the Japanese had occupied Thailand! And I thought deNile was a river in Egypt....

Its amazing how much many educated thai's just do not know about their country and its history.

A good friend and colleague of mine was brought up in Canada and educated there before moving back to Thailand. She is in quite a senior research position for our company. When we were in India earlier this year myself and some aussie guys were talking about Thai stuff in front of her at the hotel.

She really did not know about lots of things includin 73, 76 and 92. She asked her mother later her told her lots of stuff and she was amazed.

Especially '76 is not taught in school, and only taught in University by some Ajarns in relevant subjects. Most Thais are not aware of what happened in '76, and who was involved. The '92 investigations are still kept secret.

Contemporary Thai history is a very touchy subject, making historians and political scientists an endangered species here. It is amazing to which lengths such researchers have to go to make their papers cryptic enough to be able to keep on working.

And to be fair my pal was educated oversea's at both school and Uni and i am sure Canada does not teach much Thai history

She is very interested in it though and asks her mother things (them other and father still live in Canada). The mother was aghast when she said she was borrowing the book we do not discuss here and taking it back to Thailand - in the end I took it to the Phlippine where she read it while be were on business there.

[Payboy]

Thailand was allied with Japan when Japan 'set up office' here. You could debate whether it was an 'invasion' or 'occupation' or something agreed to freely. It is a very touchy subject just as you noticed.

something was agreed - but it certainly wasn't "freely" or "free".... we could also keep digging for japanese gold ingots in caves around the river kwai - but i suspect most of that golds' in good hands now......

by the way - if it wasn't for allied forces, a handful of regional leaders with backbone and strong resistance in "some" countries, most of asia would be singing the kimigayo today....

Sorry Payboy, but I think saying that if this didn't happen it would mean that would have happened is a very weak way of analysing history. An uncountable number of factors are involved in the occurence of any event. A similar proposition would be; if boats hadn't been invented Sadam Hussain would still be in power''. This may sound absurd but I don't think it is any more absurd than your proposition.

The fact that Japan lost the war could be equally attributed to Hitler and the fact if Nazi scientists had not made so much progess in developing a nuclear weapon the war with Japan might still be going on.

saddam & boats = japanese imperial forces & allied resistance.....

other than calling my comment absurd - your point is......?

Edited August 27, 2007 by Payboy

[ColPyat]

And to be fair my pal was educated oversea's at both school and Uni and i am sure Canada does not teach much Thai history

She is very interested in it though and asks her mother things (them other and father still live in Canada). The mother was aghast when she said she was borrowing the book we do not discuss here and taking it back to Thailand - in the end I took it to the Phlippine where she read it while be were on business there.

That book made a huge impact under politically interested Thais. I have heard that at least parts were translated and are distributed freely on underground websites.

[canuckamuck]

Someone PM me the name of this book.

I promise not to read it.

[PeaceBlondie]

Stealing a line from Oscar Wilde, "The book that dare not speak its name."

[garro]

Thailand was allied with Japan when Japan 'set up office' here. You could debate whether it was an 'invasion' or 'occupation' or something agreed to freely. It is a very touchy subject just as you noticed.

something was agreed - but it certainly wasn't "freely" or "free".... we could also keep digging for japanese gold ingots in caves around the river kwai - but i suspect most of that golds' in good hands now......

by the way - if it wasn't for allied forces, a handful of regional leaders with backbone and strong resistance in "some" countries, most of asia would be singing the kimigayo today....

Sorry Payboy, but I think saying that if this didn't happen it would mean that would have happened is a very weak way of analysing history. An uncountable number of factors are involved in the occurence of any event. A similar proposition would be; if boats hadn't been invented Sadam Hussain would still be in power''. This may sound absurd but I don't think it is any more absurd than your proposition.

The fact that Japan lost the war could be equally attributed to Hitler and the fact if Nazi scientists had not made so much progress in developing a nuclear weapon the war with Japan might still be going on.

saddam & boats = japanese imperial forces & allied resistance.....

other than calling my comment absurd - your point is......?

I thought my point was fairly obvious but perhaps not. You said, 'if it wasn't for allied forces.....' My point is that there were uncountable other factors involved and the fact that your post singled out a couple seemed a bit simplistic to me.

So I suppose the point of my post was to offer an alternative opinion than yours (if that's allowed ) which is that the causes of historic events are so numerous that it would be impossible to reduce it to just a few.

Is that any clearer?

Edited August 27, 2007 by garro

[Payboy]

Thailand was allied with Japan when Japan 'set up office' here. You could debate whether it was an 'invasion' or 'occupation' or something agreed to freely. It is a very touchy subject just as you noticed.

something was agreed - but it certainly wasn't "freely" or "free".... we could also keep digging for japanese gold ingots in caves around the river kwai - but i suspect most of that golds' in good hands now......

by the way - if it wasn't for allied forces, a handful of regional leaders with backbone and strong resistance in "some" countries, most of asia would be singing the kimigayo today....

Sorry Payboy, but I think saying that if this didn't happen it would mean that would have happened is a very weak way of analysing history. An uncountable number of factors are involved in the occurence of any event. A similar proposition would be; if boats hadn't been invented Sadam Hussain would still be in power''. This may sound absurd but I don't think it is any more absurd than your proposition.

The fact that Japan lost the war could be equally attributed to Hitler and the fact if Nazi scientists had not made so much progress in developing a nuclear weapon the war with Japan might still be going on.

saddam & boats = japanese imperial forces & allied resistance.....

other than calling my comment absurd - your point is......?

I thought my point was fairly obvious but perhaps not. You said, 'if it wasn't for allied forces.....' My point is that there were uncountable other factors involved and the fact that your post singled out a couple seemed a bit simplistic to me.

So I suppose the point of my post was to offer an alternative opinion than yours (if that's allowed ) which is that the causes of historic events are so numerous that it would be impossible to reduce it to just a few.

Is that any clearer?

thanks its crystal clear now and of course alternative opinions are allowed - though there's a risk that some posters may label them "absurd", of course.

there may be several other reasons - i'm not a phd in history, but i do think that the allied resistance had something to do with the surrender of japan, not?

Edited August 27, 2007 by Payboy

[ColPyat]

there may be several other reasons - i'm not a phd in history, but i do think that the allied resistance had something to do with the surrender of japan, not?

...and the US industrialist's collaboration with the Nazis had something to do with the start of WW2 as well. As had the contract of Versailles with the rise of the Nazis in Germany, etc.

History is rather complicated, and single events taken out of context that are part of history should not be used to justify one's agenda.

[Payboy]

there may be several other reasons - i'm not a phd in history, but i do think that the allied resistance had something to do with the surrender of japan, not?

...and the US industrialist's collaboration with the Nazis had something to do with the start of WW2 as well. As had the contract of Versailles with the rise of the Nazis in Germany, etc.

History is rather complicated, and single events taken out of context that are part of history should not be used to justify one's agenda.

would you please care to explain what agenda you're referring to?

[Scott]

I had the dubious honor for about 3 years of teaching Thai history (here in Thailand). It was absolutely, without-a-doubt, the most difficult task I've ever encountered. Nearly everything that I could find in English didn't quite match up with what they wanted taught--a lot of absolutely contradictory.

Since this was being taught at the high school level, my goal wasn't in any way to cause controversy, but short of re-writing facts, it was difficult. I chose to gloss over things, present the official versions (sometimes with a caveat for thought) and teach from an outside perspective--especially if that could be done positively.

I managed to avoid controversy and keep on everyones good side--thank God kids aren't overly interested in history.

Eventually, the teaching of Thai History was limited to being taught by Thai teachers only--this directive was given by the MOE. Believe me, it's much easier to teach World History and other aspects of history here than to teach Thai History under the Thai curriculum!

So, PB, what you got is of absolutely no surprise to me. Best to stick to the weather!

[LongThaimer]

The death railway, occupation of Thailand during ww2, a clandestine Free Thailand movement, and Allies bombing Bangkok? Yet, these Thai ajarns blankly rejected my casual suggestion that the Japanese had occupied Thailand! And I thought deNile was a river in Egypt....

After centuries of beatings by it's western neighbour and endless warrings with other races, Thailand, apparently chose the easy (less critical word maybe, pragmatic ???) way out of WWII by siding with the Japanese. It was a crafty political manoeuver giving the military might of the Japanese imperial army at the time. Thais are still thankful for their leaders for having avoided this bloody war virtually unscathed and kept Thailand as the only country in Indochina not to have been colonized. Apart form this, generally, Thais don't know much about WWII or Japanese occupation, even my Thai wife - a political science graduate with a minor in history does not have a full grasp on issues of this era.

It's possible that Thai historians have difficulty finding logical explanation as to why the Thai society did not stand up to the Japanese aggression like all of his Asian brothers did. And how do you justify that by allowing the Japanese to build the death railway across their land; they needlessly assisted the imperialists in prolonging their atrocious occupations in other countries. I suppose, it's a chapter in their history they would conveniently want to forget.

Anyhow, why would Thailand want to write in the history books that it was once an ally of an "EVIL" empire ?????????? RIGHT?????

[canuckamuck]

ColPyat and Garro:

Are you guys just totally bored? What lame arguments you have, and for what purpose?

I think it is fairly acceptable to assume that the Allied forces had an overwhelming impact on ending of WW2.

Give Payboy a break. I am sure that stating well known historical facts does not qualify as bending the truth to fit an agenda.

PS: the nuclear show at the end of the war was also unessecary, as Japan was already beaten. So the point about Nazi bombmaking skill is null.

[garro]

Canuckmuck, it is not my intention to post here just to give payboy or indeed you a hard time. This is actually an important issue to me as I come from a country where, up until recently, different history books were regulary used to validate people blowing seven kinds of shit out of each other.

It is my opinion that all history books are biased and serve the agenda of those who write and promote them. As I said the ideas of Tolstoy had a great impsact on me as a child and I agree with him that historical events cannot be understood unless every factor which caused the event is known and as this is not possible it means history will always be inaccurate.

It is also my opinion that the study of History is an art which tells us more about the time when it was written than the historical event it claims to describe.

[canuckamuck]

Edited August 27, 2007 by canuckamuck

[steveromagnino]

ColPyat and Garro:

Are you guys just totally bored? What lame arguments you have, and for what purpose?

I think it is fairly acceptable to assume that the Allied forces had an overwhelming impact on ending of WW2.

Give Payboy a break. I am sure that stating well known historical facts does not qualify as bending the truth to fit an agenda.

PS: the nuclear show at the end of the war was also unessecary, as Japan was already beaten. So the point about Nazi bombmaking skill is null.

Actually, i think the point was if it wasn't for the allied forces, that Japan would still be occupying most of Asia. And a sort of veiled suggestion that some countries (presumably THailand) didn't fight hard enough - kind of ignores the resistance movement and the inevitable occupation, but such is life reading history with an agenda.

'by the way - if it wasn't for allied forces, a handful of regional leaders with backbone and strong resistance in "some" countries, most of asia would be singing the kimigayo today.... '

To imagine what Japan might or might not have done is extremely difficult to say; after all America virtually occupied Japan, Korea, Philipines and Vietnam at various stages immediately after and not long after the end of the war. Then eventually either lost or left in each case. How can we guess what Japan might have done had the war ended and they had secured their source of oil?

I grew up on a diet of listening to Americans (I had an American history teacher for a while) claim NZ and Australia would be speaking Japanese if it wasn't for them coming in and 'saving' the two countries. Knowing that their trade embargoes and foreign policy (looking retrospectively) were the direct reason for the war starting with Japan in the first place, it is hard to really believe anything said in this 'version' of history. Looking back the SCM of the Japanese army/navy was always giong to faulter at some point.

It is a bit like the romance and beliefs that shape NZ/Australia links to the history of Gallipoli - the birth of a nation blah blah blah...and yet most of what is believed is a load of rubbish.

To paraphrase Jake the Muss - Too many ifs. Not enough fact work.

Teaching Thai history huh?

A road fraught with difficulty.

History books? Just like a journal article - you make your hypothesis, then look for data to back it up in your lit review; do some research using a model getting the results you usually expect and publish to get fame and glory.

[canuckamuck]

Canuckmuck, it is not my intention to post here just to give payboy or indeed you a hard time. This is actually an important issue to me as I come from a country where, up until recently, different history books were regulary used to validate people blowing seven kinds of shit out of each other.

It is my opinion that all history books are biased and serve the agenda of those who write and promote them. As I said the ideas of Tolstoy had a great impsact on me as a child and I agree with him that historical events cannot be understood unless every factor which caused the event is known and as this is not possible it means history will always be inaccurate.

It is also my opinion that the study of History is an art which tells us more about the time when it was written than the historical event it claims to describe.

I understand your point Garro, but Payboy didn't give you much of a seque to take the angle you took.

It's not like Payboy was way out on a limb with his assesment of the war's outcome.

Nations are liars just like people are liars, but some nations have a free press and that is where Thailand falls flat on its face. The same reason democracy gets no protection.

[esbobes]

Someone PM me the name of this book.

I promise not to read it.

Edited August 27, 2007 by esbobes

[Payboy]

kind of ignores the resistance movement and the inevitable occupation, but such is life reading history with an agenda.

until as late as 1945 the thai resistance (ขบวนการเสรีไทย) was just an underground movement - and quite contrary to the complete military cooperation offered to imperial forces by the thai government.... so i was only referring to the official thai policy towards the occupational forces...

there's no agenda here - just the fact that the underground resistance was futile without government support - it would have been wiped out, had it not been for the allied forces.

by the way, allied losses (commonwealth & dutch) on the death railway alone were over 10,000 dead together with about 80,000 pow's from other asian countries - while the thai toll including resistance soldiers & civilians was about 6,000 (including govt soldiers that fought against the chinese in burma).

Edited August 27, 2007 by Payboy

[wilko]

If you want to know what is NOT Thai history, watch one of the "epic" historical movies - unfortunately like so many countries, Thais have in general little or no idea of their history, and what they do "know" is complete and utter propaganda.

If you are going to study Thai history seriously do not rely on one source and question /research every last fact - this is somewhat impractical unless you are doing a PhD, so perhaps start with some reviews of Thai historiography, preferably by outside sources, at least then you'll be equipped to identify suspect work.

A good yardstick is often to look at the publishing date of a document as thinking usually moves on at a pretty fast rate, so older books can be a lot less reliable, however with the nature of politics etc in Thailand books published outside the grasp of the authorities can be much more informative.