Are Isaan Farmers 'poor'?

[Payboy]

some arguments on this thread would make it mandatory for slum dwellers to put on a sad face 24/7.

only when one has seen the poor being treated with aspirin (for cancer under the 30 baht scheme) or children walking miles to school without shoes will one see the real problems people face on a daily basis in rural thailand. similing in the face of adversity is the only luxury that some can afford.

[Heng]

I have always said that the up country farmers didn't know they were poor until they got televisions.

Yeah, there's a common country saying... Lao si lek, Jek si din. Lao (Issanites included) folks buy steel (motorcycles, trucks, phones, etc.), while the Chinese buy dirt (land, real estate, etc.). The former sell/sacrifice their land to get their steel. The latter often using that dirt to get their steel down the road when it can be afforded.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Heng

[dragonfly94]

Agreed that Thais are poor by many standards.

With mobile phones, motorbike, clothes on their backs, often a place to live and sleep and food to eat coupled with a good climate and family bonds they cannot be described as poverty stricken.

As ever all is relative. To a multi-millionaire with his yacht and penthouse suite many Thais would seem to him to be in poverty, but people like that do not usually care.

How much income is made from growing rice on lets say 100 rai in surin?. I have often asked the mrs but she always claims she does not know and that some years they make a loss as the crops fail.

[blizzard]

money does not buy happiness, we all know that. but how many people strive to be poor? some of you make it sound like they thrilled being poor. they dont have money but have smiles............lol.

Edited August 29, 2007 by blizzard

[jts-khorat]

How much income is made from growing rice on lets say 100 rai in surin?. I have often asked the mrs but she always claims she does not know and that some years they make a loss as the crops fail.

Not to dispel that poeple in Isaan are poor; but often it comes down to maybe the worst financial planning I have ever seen in my life. That your girlfriend cannot even give an average amount on something that dictates her total livelihood and everybody else she knows just falls into this category.

Supposedly many families in the village of my Ex would fall in the category 'extremely poor'. Then why is it that it was an extremely good business to sell ice cream to the kids and liquor to the more elderly? By what I have heard their average monthly income was, some of the families must have spent more than that on those two items alone.

[ozzydom]

Agreed that Thais are poor by many standards.

With mobile phones, motorbike, clothes on their backs, often a place to live and sleep and food to eat coupled with a good climate and family bonds they cannot be described as poverty stricken.

As ever all is relative. To a multi-millionaire with his yacht and penthouse suite many Thais would seem to him to be in poverty, but people like that do not usually care.

How much income is made from growing rice on lets say 100 rai in surin?. I have often asked the mrs but she always claims she does not know and that some years they make a loss as the crops fail.

There are so many variables it is impossible to say, harvest can be from zilch to 1000kg per rai ,cost of labour varies,price for product varies

Take a figure of 300kg per rai ,S/P about 8bt per kg then start deducting labour,fertilizer,seed etc and you can see why farm debt went from about 80k to about 140k last year.

Most Thai farmers work on credit so one really bad crop and the margins are so poor they never get their heads above water.

[somtaamgaiyang]

Profoundly poor indeed! Poor in the sense of their inability to acquire the products promoted and sold in a world gone insane with consumerism and material wealth.

But far richer than most in their, religious beliefs, commitment to family, sense of community, culture, ability to feed themselves by adapting to their environment, and finally in their ability to survive several hundred years on the bottom rung of the social ladder.

Very true, the lower classes in all societies, although much maligned by those above them, have a far greater understanding of the value of social bonds such as family, community and religion and in a sense are far 'richer' for it than the priviledged person who has only his own vanity to believe in.

It's not all love and smiles though and although the poor in Thailand may have enough to eat, they still have less opportunity in life and work themselves to an earlier grave than their more privelidged counterparts.

I think posters saying there are no poor people (general poverty) in Thailand (Issan) are only pronouncing their ignorance to the daily existence of many people in this country.

When I was 14 I had a part time job and when I was 16 I started working 5 days a week. In Thailand boys and girls that come from families unable to pay to continue their education start hard physical work in fields and on building sites, or worse, at the age of 14, in many cases long hours for 7 days a week, should they be grateful that they are 'not poor' because they have enough to eat?

Without doubt farmers in Isaan are poor. I have worked in an industry that provides agricultural extension services in Isaan etc etc, and we conducted many surveys to estimate earnings to insure and prove to the goverment and ourselves we were paying correctly.

The big issue comes when companies start advancing financial assistance knowing full well that the revenue from crops will not pay back the prinicipal. There are many farmers who are having to continue growing given products because they are in hock to their buyers. This is a cycle of poverty that a farmer can never escape. That along with obvious collusion concerning rice prices mean that a farmer in Thailand is faced with never really getting ahead.

Spiritually, they appear "content" but one has to understand that culturally farmers have never been provided a voice in Thai society. The powers that be are terrified about what TRT achieved in Isaan.

I worry that Thailand is not planning for the reduction in the numbers of younger farmers that are moving to the city. I worry that before long Isaan will become a barren desert of 80 year old farmers.

[Austhaied]

money does not buy happiness, we all know that. but how many people strive to be poor? some of you make it sound like they thrilled being poor. they dont have money but have smiles............lol.

Nobody strives to be poor, what a stupid thing to say. Of course nobody does.

The rural Thai's i have come into contact with certainly work hard for very little, but most will share what little they have as well. It's called giving. That is their inner happiness. You should give it a try sometime, you might surprise yourself.

[ozzydom]

How much income is made from growing rice on lets say 100 rai in surin?. I have often asked the mrs but she always claims she does not know and that some years they make a loss as the crops fail.

Not to dispel that poeple in Isaan are poor; but often it comes down to maybe the worst financial planning I have ever seen in my life. That your girlfriend cannot even give an average amount on something that dictates her total livelihood and everybody else she knows just falls into this category.

Supposedly many families in the village of my Ex would fall in the category 'extremely poor'. Then why is it that it was an extremely good business to sell ice cream to the kids and liquor to the more elderly? By what I have heard their average monthly income was, some of the families must have spent more than that on those two items alone.

Thailand may have gained Develloping Nation status but nobody told the Third World rural farmers.

[ozzydom]

money does not buy happiness, we all know that. but how many people strive to be poor? some of you make it sound like they thrilled being poor. they dont have money but have smiles............lol.

Nobody strives to be poor, what a stupid thing to say. Of course nobody does.

The rural Thai's i have come into contact with certainly work hard for very little, but most will share what little they have as well. It's called giving. That is their inner happiness. You should give it a try sometime, you might surprise yourself.

Inner happiness does not stop your tummy grumbling from hunger or buy you proper medicine when your sick,The poor farmers of Issan are stuck in period of change that through lack of education and ignorance they cannot adjust to.

The fish have gone from the rivers ,the birds gone from the trees,herbicides and pesticides have decimated the insect life Thais used as a source of protein ,suddenly most things they need for sustinance they have to buy,many are failing sadly in the change from self-sufficiency to living from grocery stores and vendors.

60 years ago a rural family could sustain themselves from 10 acres in Oz ,suddenly the kids had to leave home as the 10 acres could not provide the income to sustain the whole family, been there ,done that.

[esbobes]

i think issarns know they poor or else why on earth would so many send their young ladies to work in bkk in somewhat dubious kinds of jobs.

And all the daughters know they are poor. Al the world knowns they are poor. Except the old Farangs

married to them.

Do rich peoples daughters marry old men where they come from?

How many of your daughters marry old fat drunken men?

[chevykanteve]

I have always said that the up country farmers didn't know they were poor until they got televisions. They thought no one had any money and everyone lived off the land. As far as new shiny pickup trucks, I can assure you that very few have them even if you do see a lot of them on the roads. In the Loei area a prosperous farmer has a Tak Tak mechanical buffalo and a trailer to haul his seed and crops. They do consider themselves fortunate to have enough to eat and a roof over their heads. Even though they have VERY little money they are probably happier than most people on this little globe.

Not just the upcountry (Thai) farmers. Huge segments of the world's population didn't know they were poor until they got televisions.

[Payboy]

How much income is made from growing rice on lets say 100 rai in surin?. I have often asked the mrs but she always claims she does not know and that some years they make a loss as the crops fail.

Not to dispel that poeple in Isaan are poor; but often it comes down to maybe the worst financial planning I have ever seen in my life. That your girlfriend cannot even give an average amount on something that dictates her total livelihood and everybody else she knows just falls into this category.

Supposedly many families in the village of my Ex would fall in the category 'extremely poor'. Then why is it that it was an extremely good business to sell ice cream to the kids and liquor to the more elderly? By what I have heard their average monthly income was, some of the families must have spent more than that on those two items alone.

Thailand may have gained Develloping Nation status but nobody told the Third World rural farmers.

"developing nation" is only a nice way of saying "undeveloped nation"

[Maigo6]

How many of your daughters marry old fat drunken men?

I doubt many do, but I bet many marry Fat young drunken men who will become Fat old drunken men eventually.

[coldcrush]

How many of your daughters marry old fat drunken men?

I doubt many do, but I bet many marry Fat young drunken men who will become Fat old drunken men eventually.

Dont know what that may have to do with a povery discussion, plenty of people maybe fat and drunk yet not poor. Also if I had a daughter I wouldnt let them near any of you as let me level with you, your all really weird!

Anyways my point on Thailand (Isaan farmers included) would be that looking at some other countries on or off that continent you will find more people with less access to food, water and medicines, so I would reject that Thailand is poor, yet say it maybe concieved to the West as underdeveloped to our standards. I for one love it because of those reasons and if it was to become any different quickly I would maybe be looking for somewhere else to live my existence.

Edited August 29, 2007 by coldcrush

[tracer5050]

Like I say even in the US poor people are fat . does that tell you something about who is poor and who is not.

[Andrew Hicks]

money does not buy happiness, we all know that. but how many people strive to be poor? some of you make it sound like they thrilled being poor. they dont have money but have smiles............lol.

Nobody strives to be poor, what a stupid thing to say. Of course nobody does.

The rural Thai's i have come into contact with certainly work hard for very little, but most will share what little they have as well. It's called giving. That is their inner happiness. You should give it a try sometime, you might surprise yourself.

Inner happiness does not stop your tummy grumbling from hunger or buy you proper medicine when your sick,The poor farmers of Issan are stuck in period of change that through lack of education and ignorance they cannot adjust to.

The fish have gone from the rivers ,the birds gone from the trees,herbicides and pesticides have decimated the insect life Thais used as a source of protein ,suddenly most things they need for sustinance they have to buy,many are failing sadly in the change from self-sufficiency to living from grocery stores and vendors.

60 years ago a rural family could sustain themselves from 10 acres in Oz ,suddenly the kids had to leave home as the 10 acres could not provide the income to sustain the whole family, been there ,done that.

Thanks have been some really good responses to my question, including this one.

I agree urban poverty is worse than rural poverty but just because rural poverty has a smile on its face, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Almost half the kids in our local school in Surin province are below the weight range recommended by the Thai Ministry of Health and many of my neighbours generally eat their rice with only salt or pla raa (fermented fish).

Relative to me, they are dirt poor and it bothers me.

Should I do something about it or should I look the other way and tell people that relatively speaking Isaan farmers are not really poor?

Keep 'em coming!

Andrew Hicks

[tracer5050]

I think anything you can do no matter how small you help the farmers makes you a better person . i try what i can anyway. how ever small

[Neeranam]

I think anything you can do no matter how small you help the farmers makes you a better person . i try what i can anyway. how ever small

All the whoremongers in Pattaya are probably doing their bit.

[Payboy]

I think anything you can do no matter how small you help the farmers makes you a better person . i try what i can anyway. how ever small

All the whoremongers in Pattaya are probably doing their bit.

sssh! they'll need a work permit if you classify them as volunteer aid workers...

[LongThaimer]

STOP this futile attempt to justify that there is no poverty because Issan farmers aren't dying of STARVATION .

Admittedly, they don't have to resort to eating roots and wild berries and drink filthy water to SURVIVE but they are POOR even by Thai standards.

???????

[phibunmike]

In my opinion there is rural poverty, but probably a fair bit of it is due to poor personal management. In my village there are some people who sometimes have little food, and perhaps only rice with a little additional flavouring or vegetable. I consider them poor. But many of the locals who have hardly enough to go to the market have a new pickup, and pawn the family gold to make the monthly payments when short of cash.

[phibunmike]

Should I do something about it or should I look the other way and tell people that relatively speaking Isaan farmers are not really poor?

I try to help a little where I can, but without creating a dependancy culture. To be "enabling" is more satisfying than just bailing someone out when they are in trouble. For example, to advance some cash to purchase a little basic equipment enables a villager to set up a "restaurant" in their home, and thus to become self-sufficient.

As the old saying goes: "give a Thai a fish and he will eat for a day; give him a fishing rod and he will sell it and buy a bottle of lao khao".

[phibunmike]

Like I say even in the US poor people are fat . does that tell you something about who is poor and who is not.

When I lived in the UK, it was not uncommon to see lower-income families buying prepared frozen meals in the supermarket. Some fresh vegetables from the green-grocer would be much cheaper and more nutritious (and I would think tastier). Lack of education plays a large role in maintaining poverty.

[Gimbo]

Like I say even in the US poor people are fat . does that tell you something about who is poor and who is not.

When I lived in the UK, it was not uncommon to see lower-income families buying prepared frozen meals in the supermarket. Some fresh vegetables from the green-grocer would be much cheaper and more nutritious (and I would think tastier). Lack of education plays a large role in maintaining poverty.

In the days when my wallet had a vacuume in it, I was often faced with that problem. I could buy cheaper and more nutritious food at a green grocer f.ex, but that would require more cash than I had. When faced with buying a kilo of some vegetables or a frozen pizza. Vegetables, will last for a week. 40 NOK. Frozen pizza, will last for one dinner: 25 NOK. I have 26 NOK in my wallet. Frozen Pizza wins.

It's basically the old truth: It's expensive to be poor.

[roietjimmy]

STOP this futile attempt to justify that there is no poverty because Issan farmers aren't dying of STARVATION .

Admittedly, they don't have to resort to eating roots and wild berries and drink filthy water to SURVIVE but they are POOR even by Thai standards.

???????

Agree, "that there is no poverty because Issan farmers aren't dying of STARVATION"

Disagree, "they don't have to resort to eating roots and wild berries and drink filthy water to SURVIVE".

Wild roots, fruit, insects, rats, birds, frogs, fish and unsanitary drinking water represent a large part of daily diet in many villages.

[LongThaimer]

I think anything you can do no matter how small you help the farmers makes you a better person . i try what i can anyway. how ever small

When you married a poor farmer's daughter, you also married their POVERTY whether you LIKE it or NOT .

I have never been reluctant to provide financial assistance to my extended family so long as my contirbution is spent wisely.

Due discretion exercised, of course, free-spending drunken brothers of issan ladies married to foreigners are just too common.

[jts-khorat]

Nobody wants to be poor, so much is true. And lack of education is the worst problem the people in Isaan have to face.

But the sad truth is, while nobody wants to be poor very few actually want to do something to not stay that way that has structure and proper planning for a future (and yes, I am aware many of them work extremely hard, but without any plan their work is as good as wasting time).

Being poor does not absolve people of their shortsighted "I can see it, so I want it -- right now!" attitude that is so prevalent in Thailand.

True, just a few years ago a family could live from a very small spot of land; but they also did not need a car (where to drive in a small village anyway) nor -- worst of all things -- a mobile phone; all the neighbors they are talking to on the phone all day are living within shouting range. Ice cream and whisky. A new motor bike...

The majority of really poor farmers (I know) would not wish to get ahead of the pack if there is no instant gratification; work a little, then drink a lot is rather rule of the day.

After planting their crops for generations I was appalled to see the planting practices of the local farmers. No wonder nothing works (granted, the Isaan climate and poor soil might not be helpful).

But there ARE lots of ways local farmers can inform themselves and learn, if they would choose so; most of them actually CAN read, a big difference to a lot of other rural places in the world.

[Heng]

And lack of education is the worst problem the people in Isaan have to face.

But the sad truth is, while nobody wants to be poor very few actually want to do something to not stay that way that has structure and proper planning for a future (and yes, I am aware many of them work extremely hard, but without any plan their work is as good as wasting time).

Being poor does not absolve people of their shortsighted "I can see it, so I want it -- right now!" attitude that is so prevalent in Thailand.

So what classes teach "don't spend more than you have," and "if you save, you keep your options open for later on down the road?"

I don't recall those particular lessons anywhere in school, ... I think I figured it out at the local 7-11 buying candy when I was about 5 years old.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Heng

[ozzydom]

No intention of Thai bashing,but have you ever tried to tell a Thai farmer anything or even made a suggestion,the know it all attitude they have is half their problem.

Even the Agricultural Dept extension officers will tell you even their advise is ignored.For most, the way they did things generations ago is the only way.

They have progressed to iron buffaloes from the 4 legged type certainly, but conveniently forget that years ago the buffalo foraged in the rice paddies leaving heaps of great manure all through the off season,then when the rains came 4 churning legs on a 1.5 tonne body turned the paddy up better than a little set of discs and a slurry rake.

So to offset the missing fertilizer they hit the paddy with heaps of 46% N Urea ,the rice grows extra long,falls over at the first good rain and the snails eat a good percentage of the crop.

Last season we harvested 1000kg per rai against the local average of 250-280 kg per rai.

I tried to explain the rationale of soil testing,balanced fertilizer use and the merit of using certified seed,to what end, I may as well have talked to a brick wall.

Even with the proof in front of their eyes, all we got was "what would a farang know".