Electrical Appliances

[marshbags]

Yesterday i bought a new iron with steam facilities.

On moving the existing one away from the ironing area i noticed the canvas cord was kinked in 2 places.

On inspecting this i noticed in both instances the insulation of the wires were exposed and more importantly this had split and was exposing the bare wires !!!!!! Bloody hel_l

It is unplugged when not in use of course.

I asked my wife if she was aware of this and she just said yes in an unconcerned way.

On asking further she said, " Oh it,s been like this for a long time now," " NO PROBLEM "

I have now explained to both her and my daughter the seriousness and of the dangers of what could / would happen along with showing them the actual damage.

e.g. injury, electric shock, fire ect. ect.

I also went to the extreme and said you are lucky to be alive, it could have killed you, with a hope of getting the message over.

Then i asked them to make sure in future if something happens again they must let me know so i can check if it,s safe to use a particular appliance and NOT use it until it,s been checked.

I went around the house checking all the other feeds for signs of damage and danger.

The message if I may be allowed to say for those who like myself just took it for granted everything was o.k.

Please do a regular check on electricals and ask anyone who uses the appliances to let you know if anything is not normal in appearance or shows the signs of damage.

Thank you, and remember to take care in the home as well as outside.

marshbags

Edited August 31, 2007 by marshbags

[Cuban]

How's your electrical earthing ?

Appliance fuses ?

[WillyL]

Thailand use the 2 wire sockets without the earth. Is this more risky than those with the earth wiring?

[ignis]

Fit a 'Safe-T-Cut' box

Not expensive, if you cannot fit yourself an electrican charged about 150 - 200 baht

[Cuban]

Thailand use the 2 wire sockets without the earth.

Although many (most?) Thai buildings are wired with two core electrical wiring and provide power outlets that have two contacts per plug/socket connection, outlets that support an earth connection are readily availble in Thailand, just spend a few minutes in HomePro etc. See image below. The reason that the earth is left out is simply one of cost, that's an extra 1/3 on your wiring contrator's budget for the earth wiring and a few hundred for the copper earth rod, copper is more expensive than it was, due to China's growth etc. BTW good earthing will sort out the tingle you are probably getting from your computer's case.

Is this more risky than those with the earth wiring?

Yes.

Read this link as a primer for a topic with much depth. More. ...and more.

I have had a fair number of conversations about the benifits and exact purpose of an appliance fuse (found in the device's lead/plug in some countries) in my former careers, in short that fuse's job is prevent the person using the iron, room fan or computer from being killed should a fault occur.

It has no other purpose.

The OP might like to think of the appliance fuse as an idiot filter, if the user in question does not have the level of understanding that electricity in the wrong place can kill then all efforts should, if you care, be put in place to protect the weak human flesh from the wiggly volts that make everything work around us.

....for most of the casual readers scared by the idea and now considering living in darkness until the house is rewired, consider getting some RCDs fitted to protect particular areas of the house, like the kitchen or power outlets that might be used to power something outside the house.

This topic has been covered in depth on TV in this forum.

[Crossy]

On moving the existing one away from the ironing area i noticed the canvas cord was kinked in 2 places.

On inspecting this i noticed in both instances the insulation of the wires were exposed and more importantly this had split and was exposing the bare wires !!!!!! Bloody hel_l

I've also noticed this. Our iron, bought in Italy some seven years ago has a (cotton covered) flex in perfect condition, our electric barbie, bought in Thailand some 12 months ago and subject to far less use and kinking has worn and perished insulation (it also has the cotton covered lead) suggesting that the flex used in Thailand is of a lower quality than normal in the West (no surprises there).

For useful Thailand related wiring and electrical information check out this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67644 and this website http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring

In general, two pin outlets are no less safe then three pin (grounded) outlets EXCEPT when an appliance requiring a ground (3 pin) is plugged in with an adaptor or by removing the ground pin (in typical Thai fashon) thus leaving the metalwork floating around in space and just waiting for a fault to make it live and lethal

EDIT Case in point. I've been whinging (typically Pom) for some months about our office microwave which had it's Euro plug stuffed into the local socket (so no ground). It was only when the office tea lady got a serious whallop off it that anybody did anything about it and used the correct adaptor (which I supplied) to plug it in (the original "fix" was a sign saying don't touch).

Edited August 31, 2007 by Crossy

[Upcountry]

The biggest problem I've found is getting electricians to take grounding seriously, assuming they even understand what it is.

It's been a struggle getting the third wire installed properly in our house, connected to a good meter-long spike in the ground.

I remember seeing three prong outlets (as pictured above) installed in an apartment building in BKK that was undergoing illegal renovation. At first I thought that it was a good thing, but then I noticed that only two wires were trailing up the wall, so the ground socket was just for convenience.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Upcountry

[paulsmithson]

We bought a new house recently. there was an earth pin in the ground outside and an earth wire to the consumer unit.

There it stopped!

Thia regulations required all new builds to be earthed for over two years now.

In truth I am finding that most things here are just like Katoys------they look like women-but they are not women.

Thais seem to think that with everything they do if it looks likeit is ok, then it is ok.

foundations-drainage etc etc etc.

Have a good crew of men working for me right now and am teaching them how things should be built and they are amazed and proud to show off their newly acquired knowledge.

[onethailand]

Thia regulations required all new builds to be earthed for over two years now.

Actually, I believe all construction started in 1995 or later is required by law to provide grounding for electrical outlets.

[marshbags]

On moving the existing one away from the ironing area i noticed the canvas cord was kinked in 2 places.

On inspecting this i noticed in both instances the insulation of the wires were exposed and more importantly this had split and was exposing the bare wires !!!!!! Bloody hel_l

I've also noticed this. Our iron, bought in Italy some seven years ago has a (cotton covered) flex in perfect condition, our electric barbie, bought in Thailand some 12 months ago and subject to far less use and kinking has worn and perished insulation (it also has the cotton covered lead) suggesting that the flex used in Thailand is of a lower quality than normal in the West (no surprises there).

For useful Thailand related wiring and electrical information check out this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67644 and this website http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring

In general, two pin outlets are no less safe then three pin (grounded) outlets EXCEPT when an appliance requiring a ground (3 pin) is plugged in with an adaptor or by removing the ground pin (in typical Thai fashon) thus leaving the metalwork floating around in space and just waiting for a fault to make it live and lethal

EDIT Case in point. I've been whinging (typically Pom) for some months about our office microwave which had it's Euro plug stuffed into the local socket (so no ground). It was only when the office tea lady got a serious whallop off it that anybody did anything about it and used the correct adaptor (which I supplied) to plug it in (the original "fix" was a sign saying don't touch).

Thank you everyone for posting all the good advice that many of us can benefit from, pass on to others and hopefuly save injury and lives.

In my case i rent a house that has a 2 pin sytem installed.

It has what maybe a safety cut off, at the side of the usual supply switch with the lever were it comes into the propery. ????

It has a red button marked O and a black button marked I or 1

The landlady will not let me do any mods so is it possible to fit something temp. protection wise if the above doesn,t provide it

please, that i can remove sometime in the future ?

By the way Crossy,

Both irons have been purchased in Thailand and the damaged cord is the same as you describe, apart from the insulation being broken rather than perished ( possibly not yet old enough to perish ??? )

The next time i go home i,ll get a couple of U.K. cords that should be safe as they follow strict Q.C. checks there, and change them over.

Thanks again and i hope others will read the thread and take all the observations on board including the references to the existing threads on electircity, you refer to

marshbags

Edited August 31, 2007 by marshbags

[JetsetBkk]

For useful Thailand related wiring and electrical information check out this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67644 and this website http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring

Nice web site Crossy. Here's another extension block you might want to add to your "hall of shame". This one was advertised as having a fuse and circuit breaker. I assumed the circuit breaker was under the bluey-green blob at the bottom of my picture. But when I got it home, unwrapped it and took it apart, guess what was under the bluey-green blob. Fresh air! Nothing there at all

I was definitely cross, Crossy, but just put it down to experience. Oh, and although the sockets are all three pins, there is no earth connection inside and the cable - naturally - ends in a two pin plug.

I'm going to replace it ASAP.

[elkangorito]

At work recently, one of my co-workers (Thai) came to me with a typical Thai power board & explained to me that it didn't work & could I fix it.

It took it home, pulled it apart & was unamazedly shocked (or is that 'unshockedly amazed'?) to find that the on/off switch was used soldered connections, one of which was disconnected. On closer inspection, it became obvious that the solder had melted. I removed the switch from the circuit & now no soldered connections exist in the electrical circuit.

Connections from the domestic electrical supply must not be soldered to anything. This method of connecting domestic electricity to anything is permitted only under very special circumstances & is not permitted in Australia. All electrical connections as such, must me mechanical (screwed/clamped etc).

[girlx]

i don't know if this is along the same lines or not, but my friends just opened a new bar. when the refrigerator was set up, my friend went to open it, and was shocked (her hand was actually stuck to the side for a few seconds). she was very concerned and asked the worker if he realized it, and he said "no problem, just wear shoes when you open it".

[JetsetBkk]

the on/off switch was used soldered connections, one of which was disconnected. On closer inspection, it became obvious that the solder had melted.

If you look at the picture of my 6-way extension block above, you will see a small cross on two of the sockets. These sockets didn't work so I marked them. When I took the block apart, I found exactly the same thing - the solder had melted and the wire had come off on those two sockets.

Naughty me, I just re-soldered them, but I will replace it!

[Tony Clifton]

The copper rods I've seen here are of very poor quality. Some are even painted and a slight nick or dent shows they're not made of copper at all.

[bobbin]

I'm glad to see this come up as a new topic. I have tried to wade through the "electrical wiring in Thailand" threads but they got too technical for me. There are some knowledgable posters in that thread but they started talking to each other and left this layman "in the dark."

I'm currently renovating a condo and told the general contractor that I wanted "sai din" or an earthed system with three prong plugs. No problem, he said. But in the above-mentioned threads some people talked about earthed systems that ended up not being "connected".

I was/am going to buy the Saf-T-Cut box. My understanding is that it makes the whole system a GFI (Ground Fault Interupter as we call them in N.America) that in combination with 3 strand wiring will give me what I want. Is this correct?

If I am lucky enough to get a response from the Gurus, could you keep it simple please?

[Crossy]

If I am lucky enough to get a response from the Gurus, could you keep it simple please?

Yes!!

Clear enough :D

Using a well installed 3 pin system and a GFI (Safe-T-Cut) will provide the safety you desire.

I would also consider the use of a MEN link PROVIDED the local distribution system is wired for it (out in the sticks it probably isn't), your electricial chap (note I'm not calling him an 'electrician') will should might probably won't know. Actually one of the advantages of using the Safe-T-Cut instead of one of the more compact GFIs is that in instructions (in Thai) clearly show a MEN link

If you've not already looked, check out http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/Consumer.html

[Boon Mee]

If I am lucky enough to get a response from the Gurus, could you keep it simple please?

Yes!!

Clear enough :D

Using a well installed 3 pin system and a GFI (Safe-T-Cut) will provide the safety you desire.

I would also consider the use of a MEN link PROVIDED the local distribution system is wired for it (out in the sticks it probably isn't), your electricial chap (note I'm not calling him an 'electrician') will should might probably won't know. Actually one of the advantages of using the Safe-T-Cut instead of one of the more compact GFIs is that in instructions (in Thai) clearly show a MEN link

If you've not already looked, check out http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/Consumer.html

Good stuff, Crossy.

How can the layman tell whether his/her local distribution system is wired for a MEN link?

Are there any recognizeable signs one can see looking at the transformer on the pole?

Cheers,

BM

[bobbin]

Crossy

Thank you for your prompt and clear reply.

I will check out your link but am already feeling relieved that my electrical system won't be a problem!

[kelvinj]

I followed the link to crossy.co.uk, it' a good beginner's guide but I disagree with one statement, in the following paragraph it states that downstream MCB's should have the stated minimum interrupt ratings, surely they should be the maximum rating i.e. you don't want the rating of any downstrem MCB to be in excess of the input fuse capacity.

The 80 amp (depends upon the 'size' of supply you have specified) HRC fuse in the Live between the Distribution Transformer & the Kilowatt Hour meter is protecting the Consumers Mains, which in this case, cannot be any smaller than 16 mm2 copper wire. The fuse must be a BS1361 (British Standard) as this fuse will limit prospective fault currents to below 6kA (BS88 fuses only limit to 10 kA minimum for a max 160/200 amp fuse size). Subsequently, all downstream MCCB's must have a minimum interrupt capacity of 6kA when using a BS1361 fuse. If BS88 fuses are used, the minimum interrupt capacity of downstream breakers must be 10kA..

[Crossy]

I followed the link to crossy.co.uk, it' a good beginner's guide but I disagree with one statement, in the following paragraph it states that downstream MCB's should have the stated minimum interrupt ratings, surely they should be the maximum rating i.e. you don't want the rating of any downstrem MCB to be in excess of the input fuse capacity.

The 80 amp (depends upon the 'size' of supply you have specified) HRC fuse in the Live between the Distribution Transformer & the Kilowatt Hour meter is protecting the Consumers Mains, which in this case, cannot be any smaller than 16 mm2 copper wire. The fuse must be a BS1361 (British Standard) as this fuse will limit prospective fault currents to below 6kA (BS88 fuses only limit to 10 kA minimum for a max 160/200 amp fuse size). Subsequently, all downstream MCCB's must have a minimum interrupt capacity of 6kA when using a BS1361 fuse. If BS88 fuses are used, the minimum interrupt capacity of downstream breakers must be 10kA..

These statements are based on the Australian standard wording, it may not be as clear as it should be.

We are talking INTERUPT capacity, the minimum interupt capacity of the breakers must exceed the maximum fault current that the fuse will pass. The BS1361 fuse will break 6kA so your MCBs must be able to break at least that.

EDIT. Kelvin. If you can come up with clearer wording please let me know and I'll update it, always open to constructive remarks!!

Edited September 2, 2007 by Crossy

[Crossy]

Good stuff, Crossy.

How can the layman tell whether his/her local distribution system is wired for a MEN link?

Are there any recognizeable signs one can see looking at the transformer on the pole?

Unfortunately it's not easy. If it were implemented in the same way as the UK or Oz you would see a neutral grounding connection on every third pole or so, that is the 'multiple' part of Multiple Earthed Neutral.

Unfortunately the Thai systems I've seen (not many I admit) rely on having lots of houses all with MEN links and ground spikes to provide the multiple grounds. Doing it this way is perfectly safe until there is a neutral fault near the transformer, then some poor soul gets everyone's neutral current going through their MEN link with potentially interesting results.

The possible hazards of having an open neutral is actually why the UK lagged behind much of the civilised world in implementing MEN (or Protective Multiple Earthing [PME] as we call it for some unknown reason).

[kelvinj]

I have re-read the the paragraph I posted earlier and can see that I was confusing the terms, I was thinking in terms of the

current rating at which the breaker would trip. However, I'm surprised to see that fault currents can reach 6,000 Amperes before an 80 Ampere fuse has blown.

[Crossy]

I'm surprised to see that fault currents can reach 6,000 Amperes before an 80 Ampere fuse has blown.

The source impedence from even a middle sized transformer is practically zero and the fuse takes a finite time to rupture, in that small time the current can grow to astronomical proportions, the fuse has to be able to break this fault current. If an arc gets sustained across the fuse then Houston, we have a problem.

Witness the explosive failure of small fuses, a 1A fuse will destroy itself with a large bang if (due to a fault) it gets the full weight of the mains behind it, that bang is the result of a lot more than 1A being interupted

[phibunmike]

The copper rods I've seen here are of very poor quality. Some are even painted and a slight nick or dent shows they're not made of copper at all.

In my local hardware store I was able to buy a decent copper rod - which surprised me as I have never seen an earth in a building around here (rural area). Mine is not painted and is copper, with a screw clamp for the wire/strap near the top. I drove it into the ground near where my kitchen sink runs out (into some plants) and thus where the ground is always damp, and makes good contact.

Cheers,

Mike

[wilko]

Another good way to set your house on fire is to buy all the bargain electrical equipment you see in markets and on discount tables in places like Robinsons......the quality of wiring, insulation build etc is guaranteed to bring the house down - literally......

[bobbin]

Crossy

I have a question after looking at your site.

It seems to primarily directed at home installations. I was going to say homeowners but realized there are no farang homeowners in Thailand

In a condo building there are these earthing wires that come out of the concrete walls in the bathroom to earth the instant water heaters. So in reference to my wanting a complete earthed system, will the electrical guy tie into the building earth system and how would that be done?

[Crossy]

In a condo building there are these earthing wires that come out of the concrete walls in the bathroom to earth the instant water heaters. So in reference to my wanting a complete earthed system, will the electrical guy tie into the building earth system and how would that be done?

These ground wires should go to a central earth bar in your distribution box, from there a nice fat wire should go off to a central point which is the building ground, ours goes the same way as the incoming power, heaven only knows to where but the ground seems reasonable.

But of course, we are in Thailand, if the building is old then it may not have a ground point at all. If this is the case (unless you are on a low floor and can install your own ground) then there are few options above using a quality ELCB and at least grounding to a metal water pipe (if you use a pipe do NOT install a MEN link) which should be good enough to trip the ELCB in the event of a fault.

Your man will need to do some inspection / talk to the building electical chap to find out exactly what you have, good luck on getting realistic answers

[thegrim]

For the RCD work correctly you require a good earth return, with out this they are useless.

RCD's operate by monitoring the incoming current (ie active) and the return current (ie neutral) and it looks for an in-balance (ie) what is going out to earth now that it is typically what is going via you!

Problem is that if you come into contact with Active and neutral, you are the load (ie the current is passing through you just like a light bulb!) the RCD can fail to save you as the amount of leakage to earth may not be enough to trip the RCD.

Forget those cut out boards etc, they use a circuit breaker (good for over current situations) which will not save you as they normally are rated at around 16 amps! and that doe's not mean they actually operate the millisecond the current draw reaches 16 amps, (it can take minutes for it to trip if you were drawing exactly 16amps)

If you become a load between active and neutral typically 50ma /230 volts is enough to start doing damage, 250 ma is enough to be fatal (yes that correct .25 of an amp)

A correctly installed RCD is typically designed to trip at 30ma within 30ms. When we install these into hospitals we do not use the normal 2.5 mm2 earth as part of the cable and substitute it for 6mm2 and install RCD's that operate at 10ma within 10ms.

Earthing is essential and a good earth at that, in fact correct earthing is the most critical part of any electrical installation!

PLEASE DO NOT USE COPPER WATER PIPES ETC AS AN EARTH CONNECTION, this is very dangerous practice as in a fault condition these can and will become live and if you come in contact with them the current will travel via you to earth on it's journey back to the transformer in the street.

I have noticed talk of the MEN (Mains earth neutral) Link, this connection provides the link between earth and neutral back at the switch board and ONLY ONE CAN BE INSTALLED. If you have a shed or Garage do not install another link out on that separate board otherwise you can have a nasty voltage potential between the two. The best option is to run Active, Nuetral and earth out the installation.

Hope some of this helps

[jackr]

Another good way to set your house on fire is to buy all the bargain electrical equipment you see in markets and on discount tables in places like Robinsons......the quality of wiring, insulation build etc is guaranteed to bring the house down - literally......

Yep. Watched a standard Toshino extension lead arc and catch fire in the kitchen a while back.

My kitchen is already earthed and plan to earth the rest of the house. Will then use UK four-gang extension leads where necessary and all appliances will have UK plugs fitted, bar the extension lead plug which will be a standard Thai three-pin plug. No bother there as each appliance will be individually fused anyway. Or could be really anal and keep the original plug on the extension lead and bung an adapter on it... one more link in the chain then though. Not worth losing your house/condo over dodgy bits of gear.