Did You Ever Make Some Thai Lose Face?

[mbkudu]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

One of these days I'll probably say something so idiotic and stupid on this forum that I'll never post again due to loss of face. Oh, wait a minute; that's what multiple nicks are for!

[Ajarn]

Ajarn has no clue about cultural differences between Thailand and the west, the fact that he's a farang and calls himself "ajarn" and then utters crap says enough

You want to be very careful of getting on the wrong side of "ajarn" as he is very well connected, rich (he has a maid you know) and if you are very unlucky he will send you a photo of his swimming pool.

Not only that he will tell you about his wonderful car and how it suits him as he only has the use of his right arm.

do good get good

do bad get bad

It can only be guessed at to what a <deleted> he was was to get what he got.

Oh, the fragile ego surfaces again.

Why can't you face me like a man? I already explained to you how do that, remember?

Of course, if you're not a man, then never mind.

[Ajarn]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

One of these days I'll probably say something so idiotic and stupid on this forum that I'll never post again due to loss of face. Oh, wait a minute; that's multiple nicks are for!

And just when I thought you might be a reasonable person, interested in open and civil discussion of an issue....

You made your point. I responded with mine in detail, and asked for further input and opinions.

And you reply with shit.

[wolf5370]

Wow guys, Jai Yen. No need for personal slagging, eh? Flame posts, not posters!

I think no one likes having their nose put out of joint by being publically criticised or critisised by a junior (just as Ajarn said I believe). I think the difference is in the response - whether immediate or postponed - as several have said and Ajarn conceeded.

I think in the west our society has been built on a hierarchical working structure - at least for the last few generations. The third world has mostly been farming communities. They are used to having people above them as far as kings, governers, monks, officials, etc. but not taking a direct active part in their work. A governer or king may create laws and the police will enforce it, but it is unlikely that they will come directly to you and tell you what you are doing is wrong (or worthless if they are being fired). In the west we have grown up with this "office mentality", we expect our bosses pat-on-the-back or harsh word, pay rise, promotion or sacking. It has been part of our culture for long enough to become accepted - even then though we feel hard done by, we have just learnt to accept it.

An example. As with many posting here, I'm in the IT world. I am self employed and work on a contract basis. A major international retailer has been my client for 7 years and I know a lot of people there (UK based - go on you can guess which one). Just recently they have started outsourcing IT contracts wholemeal to Indian companies (trading quality for price - sorry, but its true). Many long term contractors (not me though) lost their contracts; most only had the single client and worked full time on site. Many were upset that they had been replaced by very poorly skilled versions of themselves. They took umbridge and felt very hard done by. They did not even work for the company, yet they had 'lost face' as the company had seen them as not-worth-the-cost and replaced them with complete <deleted> (believe me I lie not). Many entertaining leaving speaches were made. The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta.

[350torana]

I remember an A-Team episode where they lost Face in the woods

[NaiGreg]

I  remember an A-Team episode where  they  lost  Face  in the  woods 

That made my day! Even Mr T is laughing

[Ajarn]

Wow guys, Jai Yen. No need for personal slagging, eh? Flame posts, not posters! 

I think no one likes having their nose put out of joint by being publically criticised or critisised by a junior (just as Ajarn said I believe). I think the difference is in the response - whether immediate or postponed - as several have said and Ajarn conceeded.

I think in the west our society has been built on a hierarchical working structure - at least for the last few generations. The third world has mostly been farming communities. They are used to having people above them as far as kings, governers, monks, officials, etc. but not taking a direct active part in their work. A governer or king may create laws and the police will enforce it, but it is unlikely that they will come directly to you and tell you what you are doing is wrong (or worthless if they are being fired). In the west we have grown up with this "office mentality", we expect our bosses pat-on-the-back or harsh word, pay rise, promotion or sacking. It has been part of our culture for long enough to become accepted - even then though we feel hard done by, we have just learnt to accept it.

An example. As with many posting here, I'm in the IT world. I am self employed and work on a contract basis. A major international retailer has been my client for 7 years and I know a lot of people there (UK based - go on you can guess which one). Just recently they have started outsourcing IT contracts wholemeal to Indian companies (trading quality for price - sorry, but its true). Many long term contractors (not me though) lost their contracts; most only had the single client and worked full time on site. Many were upset that they had been replaced by very poorly skilled versions of themselves. They took umbridge and felt very hard done by. They did not even work for the company, yet they had 'lost face' as the company had seen them as not-worth-the-cost and replaced them with complete <deleted> (believe me I lie not). Many entertaining leaving speaches were made. The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta.

Thanks for making better sense of my words. Maybe some of my shorthand is sometimes too short

The feelings from being disrespected or shat upon, I believe, are pretty universal. Seems natural to feel angry/vengeful under such circumstances.

But as wolf also illustrated, it's the reaction that's different, based largely on cultural background and training, and individual characters. Thais are still individuals, even with their strong societal rules and customs. Just as a westerner might just let it roll off, the Thai always has 'mai pen rai' as the equivalent, should they choose that- and I always hope they do, when it involves me

[NaiGreg]

Wow guys, Jai Yen. No need for personal slagging, eh? Flame posts, not posters! 

A supreme irony here. The topic is about losing face and a few posters here are doing the best they can to make another poster lose face. It seems so petty. Stop drinking gin! Stick to Chang or something a little more mellow!

[Ajarn]

Wow guys, Jai Yen. No need for personal slagging, eh? Flame posts, not posters! 

A supreme irony here. The topic is about losing face and a few posters here are doing the best they can to make another poster lose face. It seems so petty. Stop drinking gin! Stick to Chang or something a little more mellow!

One main point of losing face is that it's always a personal choice, I believe.

Nobody can make you lose face.

[penzman]

Yes I did and will never regret it. They deserved it.

I was hired by a school last year, contract and all, moved here to find out a few weeks later that management did whatever they wanted and did not care about the contract anymore.

Their first and last mistake was to deny me 2 weeks holiday with one day's notice.

A friend was visiting from Canada... I just disappeared and showed up a week and a half later (summer camp break). Later on, I found out they were having problems with the Thai teachers because of my "falang teacher privileges". They were not at all prepared to handle this last situation. I was then fired after they hired 2 Filipinos and an Indian for the same salary.

Liars, slave drivers (the sh1t they got away with...), GOOD RIDDANCE if you ask me.

I doubt very much a "losing face" incident will happen again unless I showed up at that school

I miss the kids but still get to see a few of them in my village.

[Serendipitist]

‘Lost face’. Hmmm. Playing pool down sukhum earlier tonight… Skinny, young poochai - who’d clearly done much time doing the ‘rich kid college/tour’ in US (reverse baseball cap, gold chains, spoke Eng well) ‘lost face’ at one point and barked: ‘why was I playing snooker!?’. Ya see… I’d quietly played one too many safety’s on the black for his little brain to figure out. Despite his being a reasonably good player at pocketing them, shots requiring thought beyond ‘point and pocket’ were clearly external to his hip hop mentality. He strode from the table muttering in thai “I’d like to stamp that ###### with my shoe”. Alas, my TG caught word of same and let rip. I let them ‘word it out’ between them and kept playing. Yep, were it not for the fact that I’d rather like to come back to LOS with an unblemished history I’d have liked to have taught the young pooch that there’s more to my aiming skills than could be gathered from mere safety play on the green baize Anyways, the ‘loss of face’ was completed by much staring at me from the young pooch, for the next 30 minutes. He later left the bar, and the staff shortly informed me & TG that he’s well known as an ‘ee hia’.

Did his time in the US convert him to the darkside? I'd like to think not.

However, the depressing part (& that which lingers now) was that the US had let such a little shit in, for several years, just because he obviously had rich folks, while many a good, but poor, TG’s visa is refused for financial reasons even when a farang is prepared to pay the bills…

[Totster]

Having been a builder for many years I did a walk through inspection at a commercial building my wife's mom was putting up in Samuts Sakorn last year.

The laborors were plastering the interior walls and ceilings with concrete.

There were piles of hardened concrete that had fallen all over the floor that was supposed to be finished with tile.

I saw this as a major problem considering the building was already quite behind schedual.

I spoke to my wife and her mom about this and we went to the building. I suggested that the remaining three floors be protected with plastic tarps or thin ply wood so we didn't have the same mess.

The contracter said they would jackhammer up all of the hardened concrete it was no problem and that was the way they allways did it.

I said protecting the floor was quicker and cheaper.

He waked off and abandoned the job the next day.

My wife said I made him lose face.

In New York, if a contractor pulled a stunt like that we wouldn't have made him lose his face but we would definately really change it...

After reading this my question is...

How can you deal with this kind of situation without the other party losing face, or is it just not possible ? Is it better to let them get on with it in their own way... ?

I can see many different scenarios where this may be important, if there is a way it would be helpful to know .

totster

[Sarawudt]

An example. As with many posting here, I'm in the IT world. I am self employed and work on a contract basis. A major international retailer has been my client for 7 years and I know a lot of people there (UK based - go on you can guess which one). Just recently they have started outsourcing IT contracts wholemeal to Indian companies (trading quality for price - sorry, but its true). Many long term contractors (not me though) lost their contracts; most only had the single client and worked full time on site. Many were upset that they had been replaced by very poorly skilled versions of themselves. They took umbridge and felt very hard done by. They did not even work for the company, yet they had 'lost face' as the company had seen them as not-worth-the-cost and replaced them with complete <deleted> (believe me I lie not). Many entertaining leaving speaches were made. The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta.

This opinion is clearly a farang losing face to me.

the global outsourcing trend is based on lowering costs while providing equal quality. Everything keeps on running in the big organizations. They can do without expensive western IT staff, quality does not suffer.

The person respsonsible for operational management knows where the stakes are, I find this posting very ignorant. If your job is threatened by outsourcing and you consider yourself to be of better quality than Indians for instance, it might be time to look for another industry to work in as you do not have a future in IT.

I've told this to many IT staff, ten years after university you are too expensive as we can easily hire fresh graduates for little money. So prepare for changes too come and don't moan about organizations outsourcing, this is a global development that you can not change. You can however change yourself.

[Boon Mee]

You want to be very careful of getting on the wrong side of "ajarn" as he is very well connected, rich (he has a maid you know) and if you are very unlucky he will send you a photo of his swimming pool.

His swimming pool is posted in the Photo section. Looks like a nice lap pool. What did it run you to construct, Adjarn?

[penelope]

The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta.

The lawyers are getting shorter and shorter these days

Beretta

[Ajarn]

His swimming pool is posted in the Photo section.  Looks like a nice lap pool.  What did it run you to construct, Adjarn?

If it's in the photo section, I didn't post it there. Maybe Geo moved it....I had originaly posted the photo in a thread on pool building that someone else started in the Chiang Mai section. A number of people are building them now, and there are many pitfalls to construction. I finished mine 4 months ago.

Anyway, since it's way off topic here, please PM me for details, if really interested.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I remember an A-Team episode where they lost Face in the woods

5555555

[mbkudu]

I guess there is a fine line in losing face. Trying to find that perfect spot between

ranting and raving and pulling the tail between the legs and running away.

[mbkudu]

Wow guys, Jai Yen. No need for personal slagging, eh? Flame posts, not posters!

I think no one likes having their nose put out of joint by being publically criticised or critisised by a junior (just as Ajarn said I believe). I think the difference is in the response - whether immediate or postponed - as several have said and Ajarn conceeded.

I think in the west our society has been built on a hierarchical working structure - at least for the last few generations. The third world has mostly been farming communities. They are used to having people above them as far as kings, governers, monks, officials, etc. but not taking a direct active part in their work. A governer or king may create laws and the police will enforce it, but it is unlikely that they will come directly to you and tell you what you are doing is wrong (or worthless if they are being fired). In the west we have grown up with this "office mentality", we expect our bosses pat-on-the-back or harsh word, pay rise, promotion or sacking. It has been part of our culture for long enough to become accepted - even then though we feel hard done by, we have just learnt to accept it.

An example. As with many posting here, I'm in the IT world. I am self employed and work on a contract basis. A major international retailer has been my client for 7 years and I know a lot of people there (UK based - go on you can guess which one). Just recently they have started outsourcing IT contracts wholemeal to Indian companies (trading quality for price - sorry, but its true). Many long term contractors (not me though) lost their contracts; most only had the single client and worked full time on site. Many were upset that they had been replaced by very poorly skilled versions of themselves. They took umbridge and felt very hard done by. They did not even work for the company, yet they had 'lost face' as the company had seen them as not-worth-the-cost and replaced them with complete <deleted> (believe me I lie not). Many entertaining leaving speaches were made. The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for wanks that sit behind computer screens making

hundreds of thousands of dollars calling it hard work and them whine because

Rajneesh is taking away thier precious job. You need to feel what hard work is my friend.

[maitembot]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for wanks that sit behind computer screens making

hundreds of thousands of dollars calling it hard work and them whine because

Rajneesh is taking away thier precious job. You need to feel what hard work is my friend.

The only wanking whiner I see here is you!

Sure are a lot of Bigots around this Hood

[mbkudu]

Poor baby, do your wrists hurt?

[dfwbkk]

We all contribute...

[mbkudu]

Adapt or die.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

It seems somebody only has to have a strong opinion and know what they're talking about to be called a 'bigot'.

[wolf5370]

An example. As with many posting here, I'm in the IT world. I am self employed and work on a contract basis. A major international retailer has been my client for 7 years and I know a lot of people there (UK based - go on you can guess which one). Just recently they have started outsourcing IT contracts wholemeal to Indian companies (trading quality for price - sorry, but its true). Many long term contractors (not me though) lost their contracts; most only had the single client and worked full time on site. Many were upset that they had been replaced by very poorly skilled versions of themselves. They took umbridge and felt very hard done by. They did not even work for the company, yet they had 'lost face' as the company had seen them as not-worth-the-cost and replaced them with complete <deleted> (believe me I lie not). Many entertaining leaving speaches were made. The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta. 

Sarawudt

This opinion is clearly a farang losing face to me.

the global outsourcing trend is based on lowering costs while providing equal quality. Everything keeps on running in the big organizations. They can do without expensive western IT staff, quality does not suffer.

The person respsonsible for operational management knows where the stakes are, I find this posting very ignorant. If your job is threatened by outsourcing and you consider yourself to be of better quality than Indians for instance, it might be time to look for another industry to work in as you do not have a future in IT.

I've told this to many IT staff, ten years after university you are too expensive as we can easily hire fresh graduates for little money. So prepare for changes too come and don't moan about organizations outsourcing, this is a global development that you can not change. You can however change yourself.

mbkudu

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for wanks that sit behind computer screens making

hundreds of thousands of dollars calling it hard work and them whine because

Rajneesh is taking away thier precious job. You need to feel what hard work is my friend.

Look you <deleted> get a life.

First genius 1: Sarawudt

Yes it was about farangs loosing face, hence the context of the example!

Beleive iot or not the "Global Outsourcing Trend" is purely about costs. If you doubt that you are either not in the industry at the level I am, or just ignorant of the facts. Anyway, I was not stating that ALL Indains are crap. I was not stating that ALL outsource companies are crap. I do not work with ALL of either. However, I have worked with the ones I am talking about in the post and they are most assuredly crap.

The person responsible for operational management does NOT make these sort of decisions - at least in any of the blue chips I have worked for. The board does. Its all down to money. IT often does not even have an executive chair on the board. Many directors of some pretty large companies have some preconseived idea that 'IT workers' are 'IT workers' regardless of their skill set or experience.

My job isn't threatened - did you actually read the post or just guess at the content? In fact my contract has been renewed for another year (always been 6 monthly) in desperation because the 'person responsible for making operational decisions' within IT and for IT within the company is sh1t scared.

The point in the post was that the farangs lost face (even though they, as contractors, had no real cause too), but did not retaliate (other than verbally in their leaving speaches).

Genius 2: mbkudu

Sorry mate, next life I'll be a brick layer then shall I? Grow up. As I said, I'm not moaning. I renogiated for more money over a greater time period (tie-in) based on the fact that they are mostly incompetatent.

To all.

I did not mean this post to be an attack on the Indian IT Industry at large. It was just the environment for an example that I could relate.

However, in the two Indian companies that I am talking about (I will not name, so don't ask - but they are large) the staff supplied seriously have not a clue. We had mainframe programmers that did not know what hex or two compliment was - how the h3ll do you get an IT degree without it (this was not a language problem, even when shown and explained there was a learning curve). We had 'experts' (distributed side) sent in that had been given a photocopy of the course descriptuion for an advanced course and expected to pick up the technology.

The contractors were told to train the newbies up to be their replacements - they saw how bad they were.

I have other Indians from other companies (and some fromt the same companies but different work)

The point of my post was simply to show that farangs 'loose face' too, and it is simply the response that differs.

If I have inadventantly offended anybody, then I appologise.Except to Sarawudt and mbkudu of course, who lost the right to it with their responses.

[wolf5370]

It seems somebody only has to have a strong opinion and know what they're talking about to be called a 'bigot'.

Come Scamp, calling people W*nkers because they don't lay bricks for a living is hardly a strong opinion as much as a character flaw me thinks.

[Pepe']

This thread has changed from "losing face" to "in your face"

[Sarawudt]

The point of my post was simply to show that farangs 'loose face' too, and it is simply the response that differs.

If I have inadventantly offended anybody, then I appologise.Except to Sarawudt and mbkudu of course, who lost the right to it with their responses.

You perfectly demonstrated this in a kind manner....

khap khun krhap

[mbkudu]

I am sorry if I offended anyone on the forum with my comments. I know many of you are IT workers, but I'm sure that most of you are aware that big companies and corporations really could care less about your ethnic background. They are working in a system that is gauged on a cost/efficiancy ratio. If they can find someone to replace you who works a little less efficiently but at a much lower cost,

then you will be gone from your job. If you are bitter about this, then you have something to learn about the dynamics of capitalism. Most of these behemoths have no face to speak of.

[Phil Conners]

Having been a builder for many years I did a walk through inspection at a commercial building my wife's mom was putting up in Samuts Sakorn last year.

I though I read in another thread you said you were a medical doctor? Or perhaps you have multiple jobs? Or perhaps my memory fails me? (has been known to happen, comes with age I spose)

On topic, I agree builders here are extremely touchy. I've had 3 different guys around to put a fly-door (net) in my kitchen door. The first came back with a door that was half an inch to narrow to the frame - and tried to "make do". I politely told him to come back with a fitting door. He never returned. Two others came after, and to avoid wasting time I asked them to make sure they got the measurements right first time. None of them ever turned up again. I suppose there's a reason Thailand's GDP is where it is.