37 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Are you saying that all the money in a tax differed IRA prior to 2024 is considered pre-2024 income event though it has not been withdrawn?

If that is true, would post 2023 growth be the only income taxable?

Yes.

20 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just asking, where does TRD state that IRA withdrawals are classified as pension income?

It is assumed that TRD uses the same meaning of English financial terms as the rest of the world.

12 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

The reason I ask is, TRD would not really know where the remittance comes from to declare it pension income, especially if it was withdrawn, then mixed in a bank account with other monies then remitted at a later time.

Most taxation filings are based upon self-assessment. Some government tax authorities are well informed about citizen's income and some less so. Thailand is definitely in the latter category. Foreigners in Thailand should file taxes base on reasonable self-assessment but be prepared to present hard evidence to support their filing if queried. Of course there are those individuals who will attempt to evade proper taxation through under reporting. They are willing to take the risk. It's up to you to file legitimately or accept the risk associated with evasion.

Most tax authorities consider tax reduction/avoidance that is supported with good documentation and reasonable interpretation of the regulations to be a grey (gray?) area that is not treated harshly.

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

How? Those remittances are non assessable income and thus wouldn't show up anywhere on a tax return -- certainly not as a credit. Your tax liability will remain what it is, as the pre-2024 remittances are a non player.

According to 2 Thai tax attorneys in BKK, if the funds brought into Thailand from pre-2024 savings, they are not taxable.

1 minute ago, Ricohoc said:

According to 2 Thai tax attorneys in BKK, if the funds brought into Thailand from pre-2024 savings, they are not taxable.

IRA and 401K accounts are not savings.

They are specialized retirement accounts.

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

I only bring into Thailand the monies required for my extension. That's what I declare it as from the source bank.

I don't make the rules just simply follow them.

If your foreign investments are earning income in 2024+, I suggest you keep excellent documentation to identify the source of the funds held in 'the source bank'.

Edited August 29Aug 29 by gamb00ler

Just now, Jingthing said:

IRA and 401K accounts are not savings.

They are specialized retirement accounts.

I think you go back and read my posts, I never mentioned either one.

The funds I bring are coming from checking/savings. They're not coming from anything else.

23 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, your baited breath is going to catch a sardine. I can only assume most Americans haven't put themselves in the situation where they went into a TRD office to discuss tax implications of IRAs. Or, if they did, they were stupid, because no TRD agent/clerk would have the know-all about this subject. And, being Thai -- and not wanting to "not know" or appear stupid -- they would manufacture an answer that could go either way -- pay or don't pay tax on this remittance. Most likely, pay.

So, as has been said many times on this forum, don't go to TRD for advice -- do your own research and go with the supportable position obtained from your research.

And, otherwise, even if you filed a tax return, because you owed taxes on income other than IRAs -- there would be a completely blank line where you might otherwise (cowardly) have input the IRA remittance. So, nothing to discuss. Case closed with TRD -- they've never associated IRAs with your name -- and more likely, probably haven't heard of IRAs.

And, oh, if you did input your IRA remittance on your Thai tax return -- are you going to try to find where on that return you can apply a tax credit from your US tax return? Get pretty messy, right? And, anyway, per DTA, Thailand (as primary) gets to keep all the tax collection -- and the US (as secondary, per the savings clause) had to absorb the credit. Depending on your time, I guess you would then have to amend your US tax return.

Bottom line: Incorporate Por 162 to your advantage. And there's nothing TRD can do to make a case for fraud. Pretty easy decision, in my opinion....

You do talk a very good game. but I think you're forgetting something. The trend and it is happening quickly is for banks to share remittance info all around the town.

So you could be audited and if you followed what I will continue to call your BLEEDING EDGE reading about US retirement account withdrawals. then you would need to fully argue that case.

Edited August 29Aug 29 by Jingthing

1 minute ago, Ricohoc said:

I think you go back and read my posts, I never mentioned either one.

The funds I bring are coming from checking/savings. They're not coming from anything else.

Got it. I thought you might be talking about retirement accounts based on the context of many recent posts.

I am pretty sure that anyone working for a US company in Thailand, and contributing to a tax deferred IRA and or 401K in the US, would/should have been taxed by Thailand on the contributions in the years they were earned.

Unless something has changed, I do not believe Thailand allows the deferral on the contributions, and taxes them.

35 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My understanding is that Roth IRAs are seen the same as traditional in Thailand. Pension income not covered by the DTA.

Unfortunately, Roth IRAs are not addressed in the DTA. This had been a problem with the US-UK DTA; but was fixed hence:

"In summary, by operation of the U.S.-U.K. Income Tax Treaty, any pension exemption in one country is recognized in the other. For individuals in the U.K. receiving a distribution from a Roth account based in the U.S., that means that the U.K. will honor the tax-free nature of the account, which means zero tax to the HMRC."

So, hopefully your non inclusion of your Roth remittance in your tax return -- would not be a point of discussion with TRD.....

27 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

But I'm pretty sure those contributions would be taxable (assuming one is living and working in Thailand) in the year they were contributed.

A quick AI response says that a US expat employed overseas can only contribute to an IRA if his wages exceed the FEIE, foreign earned income exemption. I can only assume that an IRA contribution would not reduce the tax owed to Thailand. If that is true... the amounts contributed post 2023 to an IRA based on Thai employment should be exempt from further taxation when withdrawn. Any income earned on those IRA contributions should be assessable income in Thailand (and USA).

I also assume that you could deduct the income tax paid to Thailand from any US tax due on your income.

17 minutes ago, Ricohoc said:

According to 2 Thai tax attorneys in BKK, if the funds brought into Thailand from pre-2024 savings, they are not taxable.

True. But somehow you thought these funds could offset taxable income. Two different ball parks.

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Unfortunately, Roth IRAs are not addressed in the DTA. This had been a problem with the US-UK DTA; but was fixed hence:

"In summary, by operation of the U.S.-U.K. Income Tax Treaty, any pension exemption in one country is recognized in the other. For individuals in the U.K. receiving a distribution from a Roth account based in the U.S., that means that the U.K. will honor the tax-free nature of the account, which means zero tax to the HMRC."

So, hopefully your non inclusion of your Roth remittance in your tax return -- would not be a point of discussion with TRD.....

Thanks for that.

I had that info out of date.

That was clearly fized.

Good news for those with Roth IRAs!

(Not me though.)

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Thanks for that.

I had that info out of date.

That was clearly fized.

Good news for those with Roth IRAs!

(Not me though.)

My writing was, sadly of late, not completely clear. The DTA between the US and UK fixed the Roth situation; not so with the US-Thai DTA.

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

IRA and 401K accounts are not savings.

They are specialized retirement accounts.

You've done this to death before and the response has been along the lines of the value of these funds as of 1/1/24 can be brought in and treated like prior savings. Subsequent growth not so. It's the same as UK pension pots for defined contribution pensions.

Just as no-one can show you case history of this, no-one can show you case history of your definition being accurate either. It's not bleeding edge to take this approach but a valid, reasoned strategy.

Edited August 29Aug 29 by treetops

2 minutes ago, treetops said:

You've done this to death before and the response has been along the lines of the value of these funds as of 1/1/24 can be brought in and treated like prior savings. Subsequent growth not so. It's the same as UK pension pots for defined contribution pensions.

Just as no-one can show you case history of this, no-one can show you case history of your definition being accurate either. It's not bleeding edge to take this approach but a valid, reasoned strategy.

Agree to disagree.

You won't find one mainstream THAI tax or legal advicor who will suggest that US retirement accounts are the same as savings.

So we may need to wait some years for results of AUDETS based on remittance info from banks.

Good luck!

Edited August 29Aug 29 by Jingthing

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

"In summary, by operation of the U.S.-U.K. Income Tax Treaty, any pension exemption in one country is recognized in the other. For individuals in the U.K. receiving a distribution from a Roth account based in the U.S., that means that the U.K. will honor the tax-free nature of the account, which means zero tax to the HMRC."

So, hopefully your non inclusion of your Roth remittance in your tax return -- would not be a point of discussion with TRD.....

I would very much like the same consideration by the TRD.

Are you suggesting that we assume the TRD uses the same guidelines as the UK and just treat Roth withdrawals as non-assessable? I'm still several years away from Roth withdrawals so hopefully TRD comes to the same conclusion before then.

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

My writing was, sadly of late, not completely clear. The DTA between the US and UK fixed the Roth situation; not so with the US-Thai DTA.

Oh, sorry I was confused.

So back to square one on Roths.

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Agree to disagree.

Indeed.

But stick this into Google and go down the rabbit warren it leads to. My route took me to how grey an area it is with no real evidence one way or another, but here's a couple of quotes I've selected from the path.

Yes, the principal balance or capital value of a US retirement account accumulated prior to January 1, 2024, can be treated as non-taxable principal or savings when remitted to Thailand, provided you can clearly document that the funds predate 2024.

Distinction for Withdrawals: While the existing principal balance before 1/1/24 is treated as tax-exempt savings, any new earnings, gains, interest, or dividends generated and withdrawn from a 401(k) or IRA after January 1, 2024, are considered taxable income in the year they are remitted into Thailand.

Mainstream legal and tax advisors in Thailand support the position that the pre-2024 capital value of US retirement accounts, such as IRAs and 401(k)s, can be treated as non-taxable savings or accumulated wealth when remitted to Thailand

Initial google query:

"can the value of us retirement accounts prior to 1/1/24 be treated as savings for a thai tax return"

I've usually one of the first to pooh pooh AI results as I've seen so many wrong, but carefully tailoring the questions got me these. YMMV depending on what you ask as you progress.

51 minutes ago, JimGant said:

True. But somehow you thought these funds could offset taxable income. Two different ball parks.

Phraseology. Pre-2024 savings is not taxable if brought into Thailand. That is what I meant by "offset".

16 minutes ago, treetops said:

've usually one of the first to pooh pooh AI results as I've seen so many wrong, but carefully tailoring the questions got me these. YMMV depending on what you ask as you progress.

... query construction is paramount to getting a good AI or even a good google search result.

• include as many precise details about the context of your query as you can

• avoid asking for either positive or negative results including shaded adjectives

• for a analysis of a claim by someone, I use 'evaluate for accuracy:" prepended to a quote

Egads. I don't know what to believe.

Here is an example of mainstream guidance but it's from a source that suggestsSS income might not be exempt and I think it is exempt.

Anyway it's not an issue for me YET so I'll watch for reports and especially reports about audits and when the time comes I know a Thai lawyer that I trust and I think by then he'll have direct experiece with the IRA withdrawal issue.

www.movetothai.land/tax/double-tax-treaties

Pensions and Retirement Accounts (401k, IRA)

Article 18 of the US–Thailand treaty covers pensions broadly. Distributions from private pensions, 401(k) plans, and IRAs to a Thai resident are generally taxable in Thailand as the country of residence, unless protected under Article 19 (government service pensions).

For US citizens, this creates a dual-taxation risk: the IRS may tax the distribution (particularly for pre-tax 401(k) and traditional IRA withdrawals where contributions were tax-deductible), and Thailand may also assess the remitted amount. The Foreign Tax Credit allows you to offset US taxes paid against your Thai liability (or vice versa), but the credit calculation requires careful handling. Roth IRA distributions which are generally tax-free in the US may still be assessable in Thailand if remitted, since Thailand does not have a mirror concept of Roth accounts

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Egads. I don't know what to believe.

Here is an example of mainstream guidance but it's from a source that suggestsSS income might not be exempt and I think it is exempt.

Anyway it's not an issue for me YET so I'll watch for reports and especially reports about audits and when the time comes I know a Thai lawyer that I trust and I think by then he'll have direct experiece with the IRA withdrawal issue.

www.movetothai.land/tax/double-tax-treaties

To me that is obviously not a well informed source. The SS question is clearly well settled and for that site to claim otherwise should be enough evidence to prompt you to ignore them.

2 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

To me that is obviously not a well informed source. The SS question is clearly well settled and for that site to claim otherwise should be enough evidence to prompt you to ignore them.

True but I've yet to see one mainstream source (AI slop doesn't count) say anything other than IRA is pension income and fully taxable (never anything about timing or cost basis).

For example and this is about Roth so the same would definitely apply to traditional IRA. 2026 answer. Could not be more clear.

www.expattaxthailand.com/ufaq/are-withdrawals-from-a-roth-ira-taxable-in-thailand/

Are withdrawals from a Roth IRA taxable in Thailand?

Yes, withdrawals from a Roth IRA remitted to Thailand are treated as pension income. The entire amount remitted, not just the gains, is considered taxable income.

Category: Foreign-Sourced Income

Tags: Pension, Roth IRA, US, USA

Edited August 29Aug 29 by Jingthing

To be clear, I am not suggesting that anyone trust ANY website or AI search result.

Unfortunately we can't necessarily trust lawyers either but when I need advice that I have more confidence about, I think that beats websites.

Edited August 29Aug 29 by Jingthing

2 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

If your foreign investments are earning income in 2024+, I suggest you keep excellent documentation to identify the source of the funds held in 'the source bank'.

It's OK I'm not worried.

19 hours ago, treetops said:

You've done this to death before and the response has been along the lines of the value of these funds as of 1/1/24 can be brought in and treated like prior savings.

As a general statement not sure it has been satisfactorily resolved. Possibly for US types but I have no skin in that game

19 hours ago, treetops said:

Subsequent growth not so.

Agreed.

19 hours ago, treetops said:

It's the same as UK pension pots for defined contribution pensions.

Don't agree here as when you take out, other than any tax free amount, you pay tax depending on your overall income.

So why are you suggesting this is not taxable by the TRD especially as would be classed as a private pension which is specifically not mentioned in the DTA?

3 hours ago, topt said:

Don't agree here as when you take out, other than any tax free amount, you pay tax depending on your overall income.

So why are you suggesting this is not taxable by the TRD especially as would be classed as a private pension which is specifically not mentioned in the DTA?

The value of a pension pot as of 1/1/24 should be treated as savings prior to that date is how I understand it.

1 hour ago, treetops said:

The value of a pension pot as of 1/1/24 should be treated as savings prior to that date is how I understand it.

Would be great if true and there have been many ongoing discussions about this but certainly not how one of the expat tax advisers have consistently stated it would work.

If so then presumably it would also apply to any investments in stocks, funds, crypto, property.......whatever.....

It would be very handy to see a definitive statement from a senior TRD official but I have yet to see one in print?

16 minutes ago, topt said:

It would be very handy to see a definitive statement from a senior TRD official but I have yet to see one in print?

So true...

While opinion's from tax experts & tax firms offer valuable guidance (sometimes), their interpretations of tax law do not carry any legal weight. Only TRD holds the legal power to issue definitive tax rulings, regulations and guidelines.