"mun" As A Pronoun For Farang

[Neeranam]

An elder member of my extended family recently said "mun pai dai" , referring to me. I always considered this to be very disrespectful, and only thought Thai people did it behind our backs. However, my wife assures me that as she is the "big boss" she would say this about Thai people younger than her when they can hear.

Has anyone ever heard this without being disrespectful?

[Thetyim]

Mun or Mung as I would spell it is definitely not polite.

However it is not an insult.

When a Thai shouts "you, you" at me I tell him that it is impoliteand that I will call him mung.

[meadish_sweetball]

Mun or Mung as I would spell it is definitely not polite.

Methinks you are confusing two different words with each other.

มึง Meung ([myng]) - You

มัน Mun ([man]) - It, and sometimes He, She or They

Mun is not a very polite third-person pronoun in the Central Thai context, but nonetheless commonly used in non-formal situations, especially among non-educated people and in casual contexts. My GF refers to her younger siblings as "มัน" Mun, without being disrespectful.

I was also taught by my Thai teachers not to use it to or about people, and try not to... If your wife maintains it's not intentionally disrespectful, I would trust her on that account.

Generally speaking, I don't see older people showing much respect for younger in any situation, unless there is a very obvious difference in social status, it is simply not expected of them to do so, since seniority is the most important trait to decide in which direction the respect flows.

Could this be a dialect thing too...?

Maybe our Thai fellow members have something to say about this?

UPDATE:

I have had another talk with my 'personal language advisor', who has the following to say about it:

1. In Northern Thai, "man" is perhaps the most commonly used third-person pronoun, and in the all-Northern Thai context it is not rude to use it. So the dialect theory is partly confirmed here. I don't know about other dialects, but my hunch is the same would be true for Isaan..?

2. Older people and less educated people do not care so much about the 'respect' thing. It is not part of their life in the same way as it would be for a middle-class person in the Central plains.

3. In familiar situations, the rules for which words are ok to use and not are discarded to a great degree. Thus, calling your friend "man" and "meung" is nothing strange, and actually also a bonding marker, whereas it is very rude if you use it to a stranger.

So unless this senior relative of your wife's is a well-educated man from the Central plains, you should probably not worry so much about it. Even if he is, he *might* just be showing closeness by using the "man" word.

[Neeranam]

Thanks for that reply. You seem to be very knowledgable in the Thai language, Meadish. I am rest assured now that she was not being disrespectful. Important as I will probably be setting up a business with her, and the family.

I am in Khon Kaen, and the woman concerned is an older native.

I am glad I never jumped to conclusions , and said anything untoward, as my ego sometimes makes me.

I was on Khao San Road a couple of years ago and was horrified as the owners of a restaurant were taking the piss out of some western travellers. They were using "mun" in a very derogatory way, while the unsuspecting guests were smiling back and thanking them for being "nice".

These are, however, not typical Thais, and maybe the tourists are not the typical visitors.

It would be very interesting to hear what a Thai member says.

One very close, upper-class friend from Bankok told me that Thais always use "mun" when referring to farang, but not to our faces. They do use it when speaking to black people though.

[andyinkat]

It's been a while since i read that bible for aspiring Thai expats - Private Dancer - but there was that crucial episode where he's on the phone to his BG GF and overhears her talking about him to her friend and she refers to him as 'mun'. He goes ballisitc and everything falls apart from there. She was an Isaan girl.

What a wonderful twist to the story I've just learned. Wonder if the author knew....

[snowleopard]

Mun or Mung as I would spell it is definitely not polite.

มัน Mun ([man]) - It

An elder member of my extended family recently said "mun pai dai" , referring to me.

Mun is not a very polite third-person pronoun

I was also taught by my Thai teachers not to use it to or about people, and try not to...

calling your friend "man" and "meung" is nothing strange, and actually also a bonding marker, whereas it is very rude if you use it to a stranger.

So unless this senior relative of your wife's is a well-educated man from the Central plains, you should probably not worry so much about it. Even if he is, he *might* just be showing closeness by using the "man" word.

you should probably not worry so much about it. Even if he is

Makes me think of Buffalo Bill in "Silence of the Lambs"!

"It puts the lotion in the basket"!

"Now it rubs the lotion on its skin"!

Worry about it a little bit!

Snowleopard

[gonzobrains]

reminds me of so much "ghetto talk" i inherited back in the states. While you normally would not call your parents or a stranger "fool", my friends and I regularly refer to each other as "foo".

"Wassup, foo?"

"Yo, foo, what up?"

"No, foo, we can't go to the club tonight cuz it's closed!"

hahaha

A lot of my black friends refer to each other with the "N" word. While not disrespectful in this conext, crossing the "color line" is definitely problematic.

Am I opening up another can of worms here?

Jeff

[RickBradford]

Maybe they're not being impolite, just talking about potatoes,, มันฝรั่ง.....

[TheChiefJustice]

Thai people often use mun when talking to one close friend about a another.

[Texpat]

Meung is condescending and impolite.

Henceforth I'd refer to the old bat as Ii bah.

[teacup]

It should be used only when referring to......objects or animals !!!

Yes,...using "mun" to refer to the 3rd party(person)...is just not nice/or polite thing to do.

I would never call anyone "mun", unless I want to refer you as ....a potato, or very oily

btw..."mun" means "oily" also

[bojo]

Thai's use 'mun' when talking amongst themselves about people, when taliking about people younger than them, regarding foreigners and animals as well. It's Ok when talking amongst themselves and referring to younger people but it's disrespectful if you here it used about yourself if you are in earshot of the person who says it about you. In other words they don't 'hi kiat' you.

regards Bojo

[teacup]

BoJO

Only some thais, not all thais tho

I don't know the statistics out there, but for sure "in my family" we're not using it to refer to people....jokingly or not !!!!

Younger ones or not, maids or not......We don't call them "mun"

Just not the polite form of addressing the 3rd person/people.....period!

[bojo]

Correct teacup, in my family also , it's not used , wouldn't dream of it, however it does seem to be the norm here. It's not my country, however I'm not a lover of Thai etiquette and language which is attached/attributed to/depending on status. Where I come from everybody is treated equally regardless of background and society with maybe an exception being a curtsey for the Queen! I guess it must be a yellow/red shirt thing.

[teacup]

My mom always said to me......

"before you say anything.....always ask yourself "How would I react if someone said this to me?"

Well I wouldn't want people to address me as "MUN"......so I wouldn't use it upon others

Just me here

[Virin]

Agreed with teacup.

My family does not use 'mun' and all in-laws must be respected, they should not be called 'mun' which is derogatory term. This will be different if they are in the family that uses crude, rude words in their every day life.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Virin

[mangkorn]

My mom always said to me......

"before you say anything.....always ask yourself "How would I react if someone said this to me?"

Well I wouldn't want people to address me as "MUN"......so I wouldn't use it upon others

I have a question for Teacup, and other Thai contributors here, on a related term, which I believe Thais only say about some farangs, in some circumstances: รู้มาก - I suspect that most unsuspecting farangs allow their egos to puff up over that, but several Thai people have told me that they would consider it highly insulting, if said about them, because that is usually used to refer to animals (e.g., a dog that learns tricks, like rolling over, fetching the newspaper, etc.).

Could you please explain the Thai perspective on that term? Thank you.

[Tigerman1]

If you have been called this then it is 100% intended to be extremely impolite an dteh elder member fo the family thinks that you do not know what is being said!!

You are being disrespected and if you wife or GF tells you otherwise she also has no respect and is playing you.

Use your head and do not accept this or you will be a rug for the rest of your life.

You wouldn't accept insults in your own country so why whould you accept them in Thailand.

Why do men leav ethere brains at the departure gate out of Thailand? Ridiculous.

Get a grip man. Sort this situation out.

[meadish_sweetball]

Tigerman, are you referring to being referred to as มัน, or to รู้มาก. If the former, you are not necessarily correct and your advice could cause more harm than benefit.

If the second, that is something else. I've only ever heard Thais in tourist areas use it and I did not take its meaning to be positive.

[Xangsamhua]

Tigerman, are you referring to being referred to as มัน, or to รู้มาก. If the former, you are not necessarily correct and your advice could cause more harm than benefit.

If the second, that is something else. I've only ever heard Thais in tourist areas use it and I did not take its meaning to be positive.

Meadish Sweetball:

I've never heard the term รู้มาก used to refer to someone. What does it mean in the context you are discussing?

[KhaoNiaw]

Meadish's answer in post #3 is spot on, especially the Update bit.

[meadish_sweetball]

Tigerman, are you referring to being referred to as มัน, or to รู้มาก. If the former, you are not necessarily correct and your advice could cause more harm than benefit.

If the second, that is something else. I've only ever heard Thais in tourist areas use it and I did not take its meaning to be positive.

Meadish Sweetball:

I've never heard the term รู้มาก used to refer to someone. What does it mean in the context you are discussing?

I've looked it up and as it turns out, รู้มาก can mean a few things, and although one could be led to believe it is, it is not necessarily the same thing as มีความรู้มาก which simply describes somebody who has a lot of knowledge.

The dictionary contrasted เขารู้มากกับฉัน (He/she/they takes/took advantage of me.) with เขารู้มากก่วาฉัน (He/she/they know(s) more than me.) to show it can be used both ways and it has to be determined by the surrounding sentence which one is intended.

From the dictionary translations I find it can mean 'to take advantage of' or 'to exploit', and can also mean 'to be tricky', 'to be shrewd' or, one source claims, even 'to be greedy'. Context seems important.

The time I specifically recall hearing it (which is now over 10 years ago) I think either 'greedy' or 'shrewd' would apply - it was in a particularly long bargaining session where I thought the salesman asked an unreasonable price and tried several different strategies to get him to reduce the price. He did look as if he was joking when he said it, but I suppose even insults can be delivered with a smile.

I have not heard it used the way mangkorn describes, about animals, but that doesn't mean much, I still have a lot to learn.

[Xangsamhua]

Tigerman, are you referring to being referred to as มัน, or to รู้มาก. If the former, you are not necessarily correct and your advice could cause more harm than benefit.

If the second, that is something else. I've only ever heard Thais in tourist areas use it and I did not take its meaning to be positive.

Meadish Sweetball:

I've never heard the term รู้มาก used to refer to someone. What does it mean in the context you are discussing?

I've looked it up and as it turns out, รู้มาก can mean a few things, and although one could be led to believe it is, it is not necessarily the same thing as มีความรู้มาก which simply describes somebody who has a lot of knowledge.

The dictionary contrasted เขารู้มากกับฉัน (He/she/they takes/took advantage of me.) with เขารู้มากก่วาฉัน (He/she/they know(s) more than me.) to show it can be used both ways and it has to be determined by the surrounding sentence which one is intended.

From the dictionary translations I find it can mean 'to take advantage of' or 'to exploit', and can also mean 'to be tricky', 'to be shrewd' or, one source claims, even 'to be greedy'. Context seems important.

The time I specifically recall hearing it (which is now over 10 years ago) I think either 'greedy' or 'shrewd' would apply - it was in a particularly long bargaining session where I thought the salesman asked an unreasonable price and tried several different strategies to get him to reduce the price. He did look as if he was joking when he said it, but I suppose even insults can be delivered with a smile.

I have not heard it used the way mangkorn describes, about animals, but that doesn't mean much, I still have a lot to learn.

Many thanks. It's a new one to me and to my wife; probably reflects the limited circles we move in. Incidentally, Mrs Xangsamhua, a Lao speaker from Vientiane and frequent visitor to the Issan region, says the use of มัน by an elderly lady referring to a junior member of the family would be generally quite acceptable in Lao-speaking families. It's a form of กัน เอง replacing the formal polite term with something of a bond-marker. Remember, Lao is a much "earthier" language than Thai. Many Lao words and phrases in common use among all classes are regarded as crude in Thai.

[teacup]

My mom always said to me......

"before you say anything.....always ask yourself "How would I react if someone said this to me?"

Well I wouldn't want people to address me as "MUN"......so I wouldn't use it upon others

I have a question for Teacup, and other Thai contributors here, on a related term, which I believe Thais only say about some farangs, in some circumstances: รู้มาก - I suspect that most unsuspecting farangs allow their egos to puff up over that, but several Thai people have told me that they would consider it highly insulting, if said about them, because that is usually used to refer to animals (e.g., a dog that learns tricks, like rolling over, fetching the newspaper, etc.).

Could you please explain the Thai perspective on that term? Thank you.

Are you talking about ….MUN “รู้มาก – roo maak” /...... MUN “รู้มาก – roo maak” mai dee?

It has depreciating implication of warning “really” to others that “YOU know too much, no good”

….. because they can not trick/cheat you the same they can do with farangs/or others who know little

Well that doesn’t sound like praising of your knowledge or a form of respect to you, isn’t it?

You know in Thailand, you can have everything from….fake purse, to fake watch, and often times even.. fake friends/people around you too.

That’s why I think it’s very beneficial for farangs to learn the thai language, ….it will help you to understand the thais whom you are dealing with better, and about their sincerity/or insincerity behind the smiles.

[RickBradford]

So, is the impliacation that รู้มาก is used disparagingly by Thais to denote farangs who aren't as idiotic as they are supposed to be?

[katana]

….MUN “รู้มาก – roo maak” /...... MUN “รู้มาก – roo maak” mai dee?

It has depreciating implication of warning “really” to others that “YOU know too much, no good”

….. because they can not trick/cheat you the same they can do with farangs/or others who know little

That's the context I heard it used in once, a Thai saying it to a farang who knew the ropes and couldn't be taken advantage of (there's also ฝรั่งรู้มากไม่ดี, I think). At least that's how I understood it at the time.

[Samuian]

Somemone - doesn't matter in which culture is using bad language -

bad mouth is looking for a target -

if one poses as a target he/she will get hit -

if sensitive it will hurt - even it physically doesn't-

he/she has the ability or better nobility to not to listen,

to instantly understand and forgive - will remain above the thread!

untouched, unmoved, undisturbed!

What else could be the aim?

[mangkorn]

So, is the impliacation that รู้มาก is used disparagingly by Thais to denote farangs who aren't as idiotic as they are supposed to be?

That is pretty close to what I was trying to get at.

Sorry, I suppose my initial post wasn't clear enough. First, I know the alternative meaning of "to be greedy," but that wasn't what I was referring to. In the context I meant, it can be a straightforward, "the farang knows a lot," or it can be meant as "you know too much (to be able to cheat/deceive)." In both cases, it seems to ostensibly be somewhat complimentary, acknowledging that the person has learned a fair amount, about the language, or other things, such as politics, history, etc., depending on the situation.

But if it is only said in such a context when referring to a farang, is it also disparaging? Unless I am mistaken, saying รู้มาก to a Thai person is not a compliment. To wit: when I was starting out, I intended to compliment someone on their mastery of their job, and used that expression, which she said was wrong. Her alternative was a simple เป็น - meaning "to be able, capable, to know how to do..."

She said รู้มาก is what one might say about a clever pet dog, but not about a person. Later, I asked five or six different people from different walks of life, backgrounds, socioeconomic status, and they agreed with what she had said. My question is, was that random sample of Thai people valid? And if so, why do some people use it when referring to a farang - who knows more than the average farang? (I noticed there is even a poster on this forum who uses the romanized transcription of รู้มาก as his screen name, so perhaps he took it as a compliment. But, is it, really?)

[DavidHouston]

How about a parallel English phrase, "too clever by half"? From "The Free Dictionary":

"be too clever by half" (British)

to be too confident of your own intelligence in a way that annoys other people At school he had a reputation for arrogance. 'Too clever by half' was how one former teacher described him.

[gonzobrains]

So, is the impliacation that รู้มาก is used disparagingly by Thais to denote farangs who aren't as idiotic as they are supposed to be?

kinda like when golum got pissed off at the hobbit for stealing "his precious"?? bahahaha.

jeff