"mun" As A Pronoun For Farang

[mel2surf]

BoJO

Only some thais, not all thais tho

I don't know the statistics out there, but for sure "in my family" we're not using it to refer to people....jokingly or not !!!!

Younger ones or not, maids or not......We don't call them "mun"

Just not the polite form of addressing the 3rd person/people.....period!

I agree with teacup's statement.

I have a very close female friend from Isaan named Lek,whose smart,travelled abroad,and always speaks to people Thai or falang with respect.One day while eating in a outdoor restaurant in Jomtien, there was a young girl serving the food there,talking loudly with a falang guy.She was speaking very sweetly to him,cuddling with him,etc. Then the man got up to leave,they said goodbye with smiles,and then Lek heard the girl speaking to the cook and referring to the guy that just left as "man" (somewhere between MAN and MUN) and Lek frowned right away.She explained to me quietly that she hates hearing people refer to others using that word,and from then on,she didn't even smile at the girl server. To Lek,it was REALLY disrespectful,and she told me it was like referring to someone as a dog....less than human. I know that if I am at a restaurant or bar,and someone refers to me using that word,I'm definitely not going to leave a tip,and will not return. It's NOT COOL under any circumstances!

Edited May 9, 2009 by mel2surf

[Plus]

I wouldn't cheapen my wounded pride by keeping five baht tip.

Give them a break. It's nice to believe that all people have equal social status, or that the folks on the lower rungs are just as polite and respectful. Sometimes they aren't, sometimes are and they try their best but come up short, probably because their definition of polite is not the same as, say, Teacup's family.

To the OP - accept it as a sign of their perception of reality. You can possibly stop them from adressing you this way, but the underlying cause - they don't value you too much, will still be there. The symptoms would eventually manifest themselves one way or another.

Maybe when you consider it carefully you won't be trying to become "equal" there, sometimes this extra effort is just not worth it.

[meadish_sweetball]

Give them a break. It's nice to believe that all people have equal social status, or that the folks on the lower rungs are just as polite and respectful. Sometimes they aren't, sometimes are and they try their best but come up short, probably because their definition of polite is not the same as, say, Teacup's family.

I think differing norms among different groups and dialects is the key here.

The globetrotter Isaanite might simply wish to distance herself from the society she grew up in and show that she is now socializing in what she likes to think is more 'refined' company. This is fair enough and a common human mechanism. Northern Thais might say she is a งัวลืมตี๋น (a cow who has forgotten her feet) though.

But I think it is a mistake to draw the same implications of intention or perception from the speech of rural Thais as you would from middle class Thais in the cities.

Real respect, as opposed to 'what is proper', is shown in actions rather than in words.

[Plus]

Right, the point being that what is rude by Bangkok standards is sometimes acceptable in Isan and one has to look beyond dictionary definitions and words. Would the woman in question use the same mun/man if she was in Bangkok? Probably not.

>>>

I guess sometimes Isanese might proudly display their roots, in jest, by intentionally shocking Bangkokians with language they don't normally use even at home.

Bottom line - context is very important, and is missing from the OP.

[Rikker]

I'm getting a kick out of the inability of several commenters to realize and/or accept that not everyone has the same attitudes toward certain words and phrases. I mean, come on, English has a million examples where mileage *greatly*, greatly varies in when and how those words are appropriately used, if ever, and to whom they will or wont' be offensive.

As I've occasionally mentioned when these conversations come up, my in-laws use words like แก and มัน regularly, without anger or insult, in talking to and about one another. It's extremely *informal*, but not rude. (Note that this is only the close, immediate family.) Cue the people who are going to tell me that my in-laws secretly despise me and that I am clueless to their true feelings. Not so.

To give some context, my mother- and father-in-law are a retired school teacher and school principal, respectively. Mixed Thai-Chinese heritage, land-owning pensioners who have lived in Bangkok their entire adult lives.

Language is a very fluid thing. I'm not advocating that anyone here use มัน. If you need to ask, you likely should not use it. That's a good rule of thumb for many borderline words, that are considered rude in many circles. Spend several more years observing how native speakers use these words. But to use superlative language like "Period!", "End of story!" is simplistic.

Some people will always find มัน rude. Some people rarely or never will. Your mileage as an observer will most certainly vary. That's my whole point, really.

This thread has been a great read, and so typical of the style of disagreement we tend to see over words like this!

[katana]

Saw an example recently of MAN มัน used between two Thai friends. One of them waved the other off, as she was leaving. I asked who that was, and she replied:

อ้อเพื่อนที่เรียนด้วยกันอ่า มันจะกลับบ้านจร้า - Oh, that's one of my classmates. She's off home.

As far as I'm aware, it's just informal and neutral in this context.

[Neeranam]

Interesting that this thread has reappeared 5 year after the OP. I guess I know more about language used in Issaan now.

I'd say that "mun" is often used affectionately with younger family members and used between friends implying a good friendship.

However, it is still used in a very disrespectful/offensive/cowardly way too. It is understandable in some cases as there are lots of bloody stupid and sad cases of "farang" here.

Differentiation, attitude, and acceptance are the keys to happiness regarding this word, and indeed the "faarang" word for myself.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Neeranam

[kaengsom]

I quite agree with meadish sweetball. "mun" is used quite often in Nakhon Si Thammarat. I didn't like it the first time I heard someone use it referring to my children and I won't use it myself, but it's used quite often when talking with close friends about other close friends and when talking about younger people.

[yoot]

BoJO

Only some thais, not all thais tho

I don't know the statistics out there, but for sure "in my family" we're not using it to refer to people....jokingly or not !!!!

Younger ones or not, maids or not......We don't call them "mun"

Just not the polite form of addressing the 3rd person/people.....period!

I agree with teacup's statement.

I have a very close female friend from Isaan named Lek,whose smart,travelled abroad,and always speaks to people Thai or falang with respect.One day while eating in a outdoor restaurant in Jomtien, there was a young girl serving the food there,talking loudly with a falang guy.She was speaking very sweetly to him,cuddling with him,etc. Then the man got up to leave,they said goodbye with smiles,and then Lek heard the girl speaking to the cook and referring to the guy that just left as "man" (somewhere between MAN and MUN) and Lek frowned right away.She explained to me quietly that she hates hearing people refer to others using that word,and from then on,she didn't even smile at the girl server. To Lek,it was REALLY disrespectful,and she told me it was like referring to someone as a dog....less than human. I know that if I am at a restaurant or bar,and someone refers to me using that word,I'm definitely not going to leave a tip,and will not return. It's NOT COOL under any circumstances!

I've lived in Bangkok since I was born, people who around me always use 'mun' to refer to people, this including my teachers, if we are well acquainted with the one who we talking with. So, judging people as rude by just hearing they said this to each other, in my opinion, that one is very ดัดจริต. That young girl might refer to every of her close friends as 'mun' without thinking that it would sound rude to others. So, don't judge a word you heard as rude or not if you don't know the circumstance. Some polite words might be ruder if you know the meaning beneath it.

P.S. We don't refer to anyone who is in higher status than us as 'mun', that would be considered as rude for sure. Students can't refer to their teacher as 'mun' but teacher can do it if they are well acquainted. Kids can't refer to their parents as 'mun' but parents can do that to their kids. You can't refer to your boss as 'mun' but sometimes your boss might be able to do this to you if you are well acquainted.

Edited May 11, 2009 by yoot

[agent69]

I would say you should avoid using the word. We usually refer to the third person as mun (มัน) when they are at an equal or a lower status to ours. It may imply that we may not like the person. Students do call teachers mun because they don't like them.

Use the word khaao (เค้า) a variant of khao (เขา) instead. It is informal and much more neutral.