Ok, I've worked in offices, as a teacher, and as a researcher with different groups. In all settings, I've found Thai guys to be very subtly or playfully flirtatious - but that was normal, because I was either their co-worker in an office or university lecturer. At the university as my students, they were a little bit flirtatious but respectful.

Here in the States, I have managed men before, but they were usually closer to my age or older. That was a headache, because I typically had problems with men who thought they shouldn't be managed by a woman close in age. Now I am back in the States again, and I am managing a much younger team, between 20-30 years old. They are college students, college grads, and post-graduate professionals.

Here's the thing that I've noticed over and over: these guys don't seem to have a problem with me managing them at all, but they kind of frequently check me out with this male up-and-down gaze. It's not lewd or anything, but it is that typical happy male look that they sometimes don't even seem to be aware that are obviously doing.

So, that's my question:

Do you think they are purposely doing this as some kind of newer age insubordination or something? Like, "yeah, you're my boss, but I can still shag you if I wanted to" - what the <deleted> is going on? Do you guys think this is intentional or some kind of way of showing control? Or is it just male? I don't know whether to be worried about my authority or to be flattered (of course, I never let on or respond, and maintain my professionalism at all times, but I'm not severe at all; I'm a fun boss).

Help!

I always dress professionally, and don't flaunt my body.

*typos

Edited September 7, 200718 yr by kat

Younger guys in the US don't seem to have that hangup about women managers that older guys do. My sister owns her own business and has plenty of male employees and doesn't have any issues with the younger guys.

The checking out thing is, IMO, typical of men that age and they probably don't even know they are doing it. Little head doing the thinking, if you get my meaning

Yeah, younger guys are a lot different, but I'v enever managed them, so I've been like - "when is the shit coming - is this a version of it " kind of thing.

*any women out there who recognize this situation?

Any guys? Do you think they're trying to manipulate me or something?

Edited September 7, 200718 yr by kat

Well ;

Don't complain and whine about that ! Some women just wish to be noticed though or being checked out ( is it my Freudian's confession ??? )

but I will just tell you this:

Be Happy; YOU are PRETTY !!!! (lucky you!)

i truly suspect that these men are not even thinking about manupulation when they look at you like this. take it as a compliment Kat. they obviously think youre pretty hot, and with brains to match, you are the complete package. they are just admiring the view.

(it means you still got it girl! dont take it so seriously)

i truly suspect that these men are not even thinking about manupulation when they look at you like this. take it as a compliment Kat. they obviously think youre pretty hot, and with brains to match, you are the complete package. they are just admiring the view.

(it means you still got it girl! dont take it so seriously)

Here we are Donna! Great minds think the same,right?

Hot? ...... sometimes. Like most women I have my moments, but the hot moments are not usually spent at work, Work is where you crawl in some days after a late night out, drinking too much, or from a throughly hot encounter the night before

I never feel hot at work. At any rate, I'll take the compliment about the brains - thanks Donna. I need that lately, especially at my current job where I am brow beaten to death by my boss. I've actually resigned because of it, and my transition is going swimmingly along as I will be unemployed again at the end of the month. I'll have to find another job where I can boss twenty-something/early-thirty something guys around again as I've found it to be most, uhm, productive.

Anyway, back to the topic:

I guess Donna is right, I should stop being so serious, but for a while I was seriously out questioning this "dilemma" - can you believe it These twenty-something year old males are so crazy-cute they're doing my head in at work.

I've been working to bleedin' hard over here for very little return and need to be taken out by ladies for a couple of drinks until I am soundly toasted.

Any other work vibe/managerial issues where you are? Donna, what's up with that new job your recently took, and then I think left?

*Is there a lot of flirting at work, and do you think that makes work easier, or more awkward?

Edited September 7, 200718 yr by kat

Younger guys in the US don't seem to have that hangup about women managers that older guys do. My sister owns her own business and has plenty of male employees and doesn't have any issues with the younger guys.

The checking out thing is, IMO, typical of men that age and they probably don't even know they are doing it. Little head doing the thinking, if you get my meaning

Yep, generally most western guys under the age of 40 these days don't have any hang-ups about who they work for in terms of race/colour or gender etc. They probably just look at you because you look nice. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual at all, could be somethng you're wearing/nice clothes. In the same way guys look at nice cars, blue skies, art, etc doesn't mean they're thinking with the little head at all. Some women have hang ups about it tho' and naturally assume it's sex related. No need. People - men and women alike - like to look at things/people that look nice.

Younger guys in the US don't seem to have that hangup about women managers that older guys do. My sister owns her own business and has plenty of male employees and doesn't have any issues with the younger guys.

The checking out thing is, IMO, typical of men that age and they probably don't even know they are doing it. Little head doing the thinking, if you get my meaning

Yep, generally most western guys under the age of 40 these days don't have any hang-ups about who they work for in terms of race/colour or gender etc. They probably just look at you because you look nice. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual at all, could be somethng you're wearing/nice clothes. In the same way guys look at nice cars, blue skies, art, etc doesn't mean they're thinking with the little head at all. Some women have hang ups about it tho' and naturally assume it's sex related. No need. People - men and women alike - like to look at things/people that look nice.

I just told her that too! but Kat took my words for granted !

Younger guys in the US don't seem to have that hangup about women managers that older guys do. My sister owns her own business and has plenty of male employees and doesn't have any issues with the younger guys.

The checking out thing is, IMO, typical of men that age and they probably don't even know they are doing it. Little head doing the thinking, if you get my meaning

Yep, generally most western guys under the age of 40 these days don't have any hang-ups about who they work for in terms of race/colour or gender etc. They probably just look at you because you look nice. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual at all, could be somethng you're wearing/nice clothes. In the same way guys look at nice cars, blue skies, art, etc doesn't mean they're thinking with the little head at all. Some women have hang ups about it tho' and naturally assume it's sex related. No need. People - men and women alike - like to look at things/people that look nice.

I think it's just part of the good culture shock of being back, and of supervising younger men. It is a world of difference, and actually threw me off kilter.

I just told her that too! but Kat took my words for granted !

Thanks Zaza. I didn't take you for granted

i think i would quite enjoy supervising younger men. let them look you over and see you are a force to be reckoned with!

Thanks, you guys helped me feel so much better! I don't feel paranoid about it anymore. I told the one guy that I hired since I've been there that I was leaving, and he looked crestfallen. He then started asking me if I was staying in DC, and if I would meet with him for lunch sometime

I'm not even gone yet! Where do guys come up with this kind of nerve - I just don't know. I guess they're born with it.

I think I'll try to steal him once I'm set up in a new organization

i was gonna say, kat, as now you are leaving, you could throw THEM the same looks and, professionally, have no guilt feelings about what you do 'on the way out the door'.

lap it up, i say! take it all as a big fat compliment and strut your stuff woman!

i was gonna say, kat, as now you are leaving, you could throw THEM the same looks and, professionally, have no guilt feelings about what you do 'on the way out the door'.

lap it up, i say! take it all as a big fat compliment and strut your stuff woman!

Taking an alternative view:

Would you prefer to be overlooked or looked over?

If that is actually you in the pic, I'd look too. If she saw you , TW would certainly point you out as 'suay'.

Yes, it's great having a wife that makes sure I don't miss the talent. :-)

No, that is not me in the avatar, that is Bjork, the singer.

And no, I'm not talking about being overlooked, I'm talking about being someone's manager at work.

I'm glad for you that you have a "TW" that can help you scout the "talent."

Hey Kat,

I haven't done any management at this stage of my career, but I've worked with almost entirely men for most of it, so I'll allow myself a comment.

Personally, I find this stuff is a question of vibe -- some guys are good at being a bit flirty around the office in a way that's fun and not weird, and some guys just don't get it. It really depends on the people involved though: to give examples, my last company had a "underwear day" where most of the guys turned up in their underwear (it's high tech, don-t ask). They tried to get the girls in the office to do the same (all 3 of us), but I declined. I did however take all their pictures and told them I was going to make a calendar to send our customers. :-P But the office had a really good vibe, and so it managed to be funny, not creepy.

In comparison, I once worked for a creepy old prof who would just stare at my breasts all the time, while explaining th e work he wanted me to do. I ended up leaving -- I couldn't stand him. His looks made me ten times more uncomfortable than the guys with no pants on.

So if the guys don't make you uncomfortable -- I would personally just go with it, and take it as a compliment. If they do -- well, you're the boss.

I think guys just like to look at women. As long as it's admiring and respectful, that's fine with me.

I wouldnt take it personally or get creeped out by it at all. They've just come from university or college, where they spent all day looking at the female teachers and students. Before that, they came from high school where they spent all day looking at the female teachers, other female parents and female students, and before that.. hormones are a harsh slave master.

Amyji!

Amyji - I see you're here - please call me or PM me for my number sometime.

Edited September 12, 200718 yr by kat

Ok, back to the regular program:

CG: I know exactly what you mean, especially about the prof. You had to work for him and you should never have to feel sexually uncomfortable where you work.

Will: I would boss you around anytime, and I'm sure you would not feel uncomfortable

Edited September 12, 200718 yr by kat

In fact, this leads me to refine my question:

Does the age factor of male co-workers make a difference for women in the workplace? I've just described my experience as a manager, and CG explained hers as a colleague and student worker. Anyone else have other thoughts? Is this an ageist question, or is it a timely one?

How does it differ for men? (except for the usual tossers' answer please).

Interesting.

Edited September 12, 200718 yr by kat

How does it differ for men? (except for the usual tossers' answer please).

I hope it is OK for me to post here... being a bloke and all...

For me, it is probably harder for a woman to earn my respect, but I treat a woman manager the same as I would a bloke that I consider to be their equal...

I work in Engineering, where half of the women are promoted more based upon their gender, their pet status with 'the boss' (i.e. what between men is called networking ) and 'affirmative action' within the organisation... the other half probably deserve their position and have achieved it despite sexist pigs like me...

All women are rated on a scale of yes to no... some are quickly put into the no category and are never 'looked over' again... the rest are being constantly re-evaluated...

I will put another theory forward... is the 'vibe' determined by the eligibility of the men in the office??? I have always been able to get away with the flirty co-worker thing, because I was relatively more 'eligible'... guys the same age as me who were either physically or emotionally less attractive would do much less and be branded sleazy...

Cheers,

Daewoo

P.S. nmad YOU KAT...

I had to google the song lyrics in you auto sig to find the song... it was eating me up...

HOPE YOUR HAPPY NOW...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Edited September 12, 200718 yr by Daewoo

thanks for your honest post, Daewoo. In terms of the "vibe" of men flirting and the category we put them in, I would say women are not much different than men in that regard.

Hi Kat!

Like the other posters I don't think these guys are being intentionally controlling or playing any game other than possibly flirtation. The thing is, in the US it is not out of the question to sleep with your boss, whereas in Thailand with all the emphasis on position it is more taboo. Plenty of cases where male subordinates have gotten romantically and/or sexually involved with a female boss (I've been a party to that myself, altho I must say it never proved to be a very good idea!). So they may be unconsciously looking you over just because you are female and they're guys, but they may also be doing so because they think it is not out of the realm of the possible to get something going with you, and they'd like to. If you consider that it is out of the question (a wise policy) then try to communicate that fact. A pointed semi-joking remark should do.

I have supervised men of various ages and nationalities most of my professional life and generally not had much problem. Actually easier in Asia because of the respect accorded to position. However in my field professional competence trumps all. This may be less so (or less clearly assessed in other fields).

P.S. nmad YOU KAT...

I had to google the song lyrics in you auto sig to find the song... it was eating me up...

HOPE YOUR HAPPY NOW...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Ha Ha - made you look! It's REM "Losing My Religion."

Hi Kat!

Like the other posters I don't think these guys are being intentionally controlling or playing any game other than possibly flirtation. The thing is, in the US it is not out of the question to sleep with your boss, whereas in Thailand with all the emphasis on position it is more taboo. Plenty of cases where male subordinates have gotten romantically and/or sexually involved with a female boss (I've been a party to that myself, altho I must say it never proved to be a very good idea!). So they may be unconsciously looking you over just because you are female and they're guys, but they may also be doing so because they think it is not out of the realm of the possible to get something going with you, and they'd like to. If you consider that it is out of the question (a wise policy) then try to communicate that fact. A pointed semi-joking remark should do.

I have supervised men of various ages and nationalities most of my professional life and generally not had much problem. Actually easier in Asia because of the respect accorded to position. However in my field professional competence trumps all. This may be less so (or less clearly assessed in other fields).

Thanks Sheryl. You've got a much better perspective than I do.

I don't think I would consider it while I'm there, but I am leaving soon, and this guy has asked to keep in touch, hmmmm

Edited September 14, 200718 yr by kat

*double post.

Edited September 14, 200718 yr by kat