3m Baht Investment Visa Not Fully Grandfathered

[logpoacher]

I have just returned from attempting to extend my permission to stay for another year, based on owning a condo worth more than 3M baht. As everyone probably knows, this was abolished for new applicants last year and intially it was stated that existing aliens in this category would also not be given any further extensions. However, after a lot of panic, this was changed and existing users were "grandfathered" in. Subsequently, I extended my permission to stay by one year.

Today, I was not expecting any trouble, but I was refused an extension. I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government. On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000. Effectively, they now consider that my investment is 730,000 baht too low. If I put this amount in a bank account, they would give me permission to stay (initially they said I would have to put 3M baht in a bank account, but then one of them produced a procedural manual and decided that the investment does not have to be in one unit). They emphasised that this amount would have to stay permanently in the bank, and produced a letter in English to this effect.

I pointed out, and they agreed, that I have had four previous extensions granted on this basis but they stated again that "Immigration has changed the law" (this was said in English, twice).

Needless to say, I do not have a spare 730,000 baht which I can put in a bank and not touch for ever, so I now have 26 days left in Thailand to sort this out.

Has anyone encountered this problem or does anyone have any ideas?

[cclub75]

The perfect trap. Amazing.

However, it seems really gross.

I think you should go up the ladder, protest, make noise.

How much did you pay for your condo 3.5 M, right ?

What I dont understand is the second figure on the receipt of Land Registry.

I have just returned from attempting to extend my permission to stay for another year, based on owning a condo worth more than 3M baht. As everyone probably knows, this was abolished for new applicants last year and intially it was stated that existing aliens in this category would also not be given any further extensions. However, after a lot of panic, this was changed and existing users were "grandfathered" in. Subsequently, I extended my permission to stay by one year.

Today, I was not expecting any trouble, but I was refused an extension. I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government. On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000. Effectively, they now consider that my investment is 730,000 baht too low. If I put this amount in a bank account, they would give me permission to stay (initially they said I would have to put 3M baht in a bank account, but then one of them produced a procedural manual and decided that the investment does not have to be in one unit). They emphasised that this amount would have to stay permanently in the bank, and produced a letter in English to this effect.

I pointed out, and they agreed, that I have had four previous extensions granted on this basis but they stated again that "Immigration has changed the law" (this was said in English, twice).

Needless to say, I do not have a spare 730,000 baht which I can put in a bank and not touch for ever, so I now have 26 days left in Thailand to sort this out.

Has anyone encountered this problem or does anyone have any ideas?

[samran]

not good.

Can the bank come and re-assess the value of the property? What ways are there potentially to get the land registry people back out to look at the new value? Surely it has gone up in recent times?

[Sojourner]

How much did you pay for your condo 3.5 M, right ?

What I dont understand is the second figure on the receipt of Land Registry.

As I understand it, the Land Registry Office places their own value on property, houses and condos. I don't know how they arrive at the figure they use but it is on record. The OP claims he paid 3.5 mil but the Land office considers that to be well above market value based on their figures. The question the Land office has is did he really pay that amount or did he pay fair market value? They are opting for fair market value and not trusting what the OP claims he paid. I'm surprised the seller actually claimed they sold it to the OP for 3.5 mil. The seller had to pay income taxes on that transaction. Usually the Thai seller will ask you permission to claim you bought it for fair market value so the seller doesn't have to pay so much tax. They usually throw a perk your way to get you to agree.

[Firefan]

Auch that sucks! Sorry to hear.

The reason the land office price might be lower is often that seller/buyer wish to pay as little tax on the transaction as possible. That tax is based on the nos given to the land registry. I.e. in an effort to save you (or the seller) money they(whomever handled your docs, the agent/lawyer/seller Etc.) put in a lowballed, lower end number tax was paid on.

This is widely accepted, even at the land office - whom generally will only question outragously low prices/big drops from last sale Etc.

That said; it has now brought you in a difficult situation.

I wish you best of luck and really hope for you that you can maintain your investment visa.

An extreme solution, should the visa have your first priority, might be to sell the condo (which I presume you bought cash), and as you have had it for years it will probably be worth more than the required 3M you can then put in a time deposit. You would naturally have to get confirmation from emmigration and help from good lawyer as there might be a period of a few days where condo sold prior you having the money to put in account.

One small positive I read from this is that if someone currently holding an investment visa wishes to changes from investment being a condo to being 3M Baht in time deposit, that is then possible.

Cheers!

[Firefan]

Just wish to add that they always requested that tax payment doc from land office from me when applying for extension. Mine is above 3M Baht. Cheers!

[LivinLOS]

Did you pay tax on a property transfer of over 3m.. If not then they are catching you for playing (commonly used) loopholes and avoiding tax..

I know everyone does but risky for a condo / investment visa..

[midas]

not good.

Can the bank come and re-assess the value of the property? What ways are there potentially to get the land registry people back out to look at the new value? Surely it has gone up in recent times?

So unfair - and do what Samran suggests. Surely Land Reg people

could find ways to support a higher figure ( even of you have to

pay tea money to someone ?)

DONT GIVE UP - try everything.

[Firefan]

Thing is it was probably not the buyer that knew what the land office price got set at (besides MAYBE a remark saying that "we will ensure you don't pay too much tax in transfer").

In my case I never even heard of how they (my agent+lawyer) set the price. Also I did not at that time even know of the visa. Later when I found out, I first thought it was the official buying price that mattered (there is an official sales contract on that w. gov. stamps Etc. too). I.e. as buyer I was not even ASKED what I wanted.

Even when reading the requirements for the visa it most places just says the generic "more than 3M" but I am sure it is stipulated in the small writing somewhere that it is the land office/tax payment price that matter.

It DOES seem to me that they want to clear out as many of the given investment visas as possible. When I went for last extension in August the officer+1 staff "jokingly" asked if I had sold/did not want to sell - I just smiled and said it was my home, as my yellow Tabien Bahn (house book) also indicates. They smiled back and the extension was granted on the same day I applied - efficient service I must say.

Cheers!

Did you pay tax on a property transfer of over 3m.. If not then they are catching you for playing (commonly used) loopholes and avoiding tax..

I know everyone does but risky for a condo / investment visa..

Edited September 12, 2007 by Firefan

[ovenman]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder whether these rules would be applied in the other direction, i.e. a person bought a condo for 2 million baht, the land office now assesses at 4 million baht?

[monty]

The OP hasn't posted anymore, but to me it looks like he bought for 3.5 million, showed the contract at land and house and paid the tax on 3.5 million, even though he would have gotten away with paying tax on 2.27 million (what land and house thinks the condo is worth).

This scenario happens, although most sellers/buyers will try to pay tax on the lowest possible amount land and house will accept, regardless of actual price paid (which actually is illegal tax avoidance!).

I do find this a very ugly thing to do by immigration, you create immigration laws to attract inbound investment (many people would not have bought the condo if a year visa was not attached!) and then change the laws putting the owner of the place in problems staying legal here to stay in the condo he bought...

Do this in a commercial venture and you are liable to get sued!

[Crushdepth]

As everyone probably knows, this was abolished for new applicants last year and intially it was stated that existing aliens in this category would also not be given any further extensions. However, after a lot of panic, this was changed and existing users were "grandfathered" in.

The Thai government really knows how to destroy investor confidence. First the stock market, now housing. Don't want the farangs, just want the money. Lucky, the money seems to have a slight edge

[JGA]

About 4 years ago, I bought a condo for 7.8M baht, but it had an assessed value of 4.3M baht. I've been renewing my visa every year with zero problems, so hopefully this will continue next year as well. However, I'm getting tired of Thailand changing the rules every year. I've been thinking about selling my condo and moving to another country anyways (probably Indonesia).

-Jeff

[IAMSOBAD]

we all need to get together with the media and share all of these rude and anti-human rule changes. they are killing the core people who really love living here and putting money flow into the economy. trust me...MONEY TALKS.

i begged readers to join me with the retirement visa changes on dependents...NOBODY OFFERED.

i ask again...LETS SPEAK UP TO CNN..BBC...anyone...THE NATION.

is this just a sounding board...or a group of strong farang who are REAL winners ...not REAL whiners?

JOIN ME...lets make some noise. IT WILL WORK.

i will meet anyone...anyplace to form a group to go to the media about all of these racist laws popping up.

if you dont act now...YOUR VISA WILL BE NEXT.they will find a loophole in every case.

any takers?

Edited September 20, 2007 by IAMSOBAD

[misterme]

First of all, I'd pay the 1900 baht for a 30 day extension. That gives you breathing room and the officials don't see your case as an impossible timeframe.

I'd hit them, softly, from every angle... with a smile. I'd avoid contact myself, getting Thais to ask them for ways around, and/or better interpretations to the word of the law. Maybe a Thai law office, spouse, or Thai business owner friends.

On the second front, I'd try to get your team to re-evaluate the property. Then getting the Representative themselves to walk the papers in. Thais have a way of respecting documents handed to them by office workers.

Can you apply for an extension at a different office/province?

And, lastly... once it's extended... Applying for permanent residency may be an idea.

just my 2 cents. (keep in mind, I don't have the experience in the visa extension process)

[zorro1]

Seems to me that is mighty unfair however you were there once and they threw 2 figures at you both wildly different. Go higher up and do it with a smile

I just recently purchased a condo for 5mill bht. Does that entitle me to a 1 year visa? I had no idea this visa is/was/no longer available. confused

[Foggy Bottom]

Not sure if it still applies, but in the UK, properties used to have two values -

The higher value generally was the market value, this is the one used by estate agents and mortgage companies to assess the value and it depends heavily on current market conditions, location, condition and type of property etc. In the Uk, the guideline values are published in alsorts of places and there tends to be consistency of agreement between them, which very much aids buying decisions.

The other value is a local authority / council / local government (depending what you're used to calling it) value - this used to be known as the rateable value, and was a conservative estimate of the properties' income potentials if rented out. It could be affected by certain home improvements double-glazing, central heating, extensions, loft conversions, number of bathrooms etc), and was the basis for assessment of annual local property taxes - local authority "rates", and the fees paid to the water and sewage companies annually (before many switched to metered water billing).

The local authority assessed value used to be re-assessed every 10 years automatically and there was a fixed time period after re-assessment for appealing the new rate, but if you were trying to get it lowered, unless a mob of you in identical properties appealed collectively it almost never happened.

It would seem the second figure in the OP's statement is similar to the UK's equivalent of assessed rateable value. Certainly the land office would know the current market conditions and the current average sell/purchase prices, but those could be very different to the taxable value in the same way as they often are in the UK.

All of that may not help the OP's case, but it might be helpful in understanding the two values if indeed that's what they represent.

Gaz

[lopburi3]

Seems to me that is mighty unfair however you were there once and they threw 2 figures at you both wildly different. Go higher up and do it with a smile

I just recently purchased a condo for 5mill bht. Does that entitle me to a 1 year visa? I had no idea this visa is/was/no longer available. confused

Actually the poster is talking about one year extensions of stay rather than visas. The program is no longer supported by Immigration for any new applications.

[JimmyCA]

you are experiencing the real thailand .... the one you all know and love so well

[FBN]

we all need to get together with the media and share all of these rude and anti-human rule changes. they are killing the core people who really love living here and putting money flow into the economy. trust me...MONEY TALKS.

i begged readers to join me with the retirement visa changes on dependents...NOBODY OFFERED.

i ask again...LETS SPEAK UP TO CNN..BBC...anyone...THE NATION.

is this just a sounding board...or a group of strong farang who are REAL winners ...not REAL whiners?

JOIN ME...lets make some noise. IT WILL WORK.

i will meet anyone...anyplace to form a group to go to the media about all of these racist laws popping up.

if you dont act now...YOUR VISA WILL BE NEXT.they will find a loophole in every case.

any takers?

Have an idea: Let's get together in front of the Immigrations Building and strip naked!! Did it work for the ladies who did that a while ago? Imagine a group of aging, balding farangs with paunches naked in front of a government builing in BKK... the mind boggles but its guaranteed to get some CNN...

Apologies IMSOBAD for my facetious comment above but I could not resist...

This is a serious issue but the reason nobody joined on this before may be that they all thought (like I do now) WHAT IF it did NOT work...

The management of visas for foreigners and residencies does not seem to be rational or objective to our way of thinking, ergo, is there any guarantee that the outcome of such a protest will be handled objecively?

Immigrations say jump and we say "How High??".. A foreigner in a foreign land; it goes with the territory..

[logpoacher]

Hi Everyone,

First, thank you to everyone who has expressed sympathy with my predicament - it makes me feel a bit better. Sorry for going quiet, but as you can imagine I'm feeling a bit down at the moment.

To answer some of the points raised:

The purchase did not, as far as I know, involve any tax fiddles! I had to go to the land registry with one of the staff from the company that was selling the condos (they had been managing the whole block as serviced apartments) and hand over my cheque for 3.5M baht to the staff member. The land registry took a copy of it and the receipt issued by the land registry clearly shows this figure. From my OP: "On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000".

Several people advised trying to have the land registry valuation reassessed. A Thai friend is going to contact the land registry and see if this is possible, but he doubts that it is. It also occurs to me that this might not be a very popular move with my co-owners as presumably it would mean them having to pay more tax if they sold (as I assume that the land registry would revalue all the units in the block, not just mine).

Someone suggested selling the condo and putting the money in the bank, with the proviso that I cleared everything with Immigration beforehand. This might work, but then I would have nowhere to live. Also, as everyone can see, there are many new condos being built, including on a site adjacent to my condo, so I suspect that selling for a profit or even for the price that I paid would not be easy as why would anyone want to buy a 12 year old condo when they could have a brand new one for the same price?

Another suggestion was to apply for Permanent Residency, but as I don't work I think this would be impossible.

"Go higher up, with a smile" - I think I've pretty much done this. I did stay calm and polite and not get angry and kept smiling. I'm not sure how far "up" you can go, but I ended up talking to a lady with her own private office at the far end of Room 101, who was senior to the captain who initially refused to sign off my extension, so I assume she must be at least a major. (It was a yellow shirt day, so they didn't have their name and rank badges on, and I didn't ask her.) She was polite, pleasant and sympathetic and said that she could see that I had "made my life in Thailand", but adamant that she could not give me the extension.

What I have done so far is to scrape together enough money and transfer it to Thailand to get the extension. This is a temporary measure as this money is effectively my next 12 to 15 month's living expenses, so I will not be able to sustain the required balance as I will soon have to start eating it!

My thoughts are that the days of foreigners being able to live long term in Thailand are numbered, unless you have a job or are a very large invester. And remember that if you lose your job, you have seven days to leave the country. The laws are gradually being made stricter and the financial requirements more onerous. On another thread about the retirement visa dependant spouse changes, someone made the point that when you are considering selling up and moving to a foreign country, you want to be sure of permanency and security, providing you obey the rules which I have done. As I feel now, I will always be wondering what new hoop I will have to jump through next year and I cannot relax and enjoy my life. How long before the law is changed to say that foreigners cannot own condos, for example?

I also have the clear feeling that I am not welcome here any more, and it is a rather uncomfortable and unpleasant. I don't understand the reason for this. I am not one of those people who believes that the economy of Thailand will collapse if I go, but I do think that the effects for Thailand of my living here are more positive than negative. I bring in all my living expenses from outside the country and spend them here, with Thai businesses. I am not spending the 6,000 baht per day of TAT's "quality tourist" (or whatever their current target figure is), but over the year I spend considerably more than they do, even if they stay for a month. Additionally, a greater percentage of my expenditure goes to Thais and Thai businesses, not international hotel chains and airlines. The only explanation that seems to fit is xenophobia, because I cannot think of any logical economic reason.

I shall therefore be spending the next year investigating where would be best to move to and then selling my condo for whatever price I can get and moving out of Thailand. I have a friend who is very enthusiastic about Malaysia where he lives, but I'm not going to make any rushed decisions at the moment so all suggestions are welcome. I have ruled out Burma.

If you have been, thank you for listening...

[gamerdude]

Thais having xenophobia? Really?!?

I've been here 6 months, and I have read a lot of websites about Thailand before and after arrival. I clearly see the racism. It's bad enough it's so rampant amoung their own people. Isaan people are considered low class, even with a good education and respectable job. Job applicants can only be 20-28 years of age, etc.

But that's besides the point.

I agree that finding a nice foreign country to live in on a permanent basis is ideal. I considered Cambodia, Vietnam, China, and Thailand before moving here.

I knew before I came that farangophobia was in existence. However, I think it's just the way it is in Asian countries. It's not like the USA, UK or Aussieland where there are all kinds of foreign immigrants.

No matter where we go, there is sure to be predjuduce. We will have to jump through hoops to appease the people in the lands we wish to stay. Thailand may be more oppressive on this front, but I would think they are all the same:

farang has money = can stay

farang has no money = go home

xenophobic Asian = go home anyway

Let some big economic disaster happen, and maybe they will relax their stance - but only for the short term.

Nothings perfect, but Thailand still seems better than the states. I guess that's why we all jump through the hoops to stay.

Now I just need to get 3M Baht for an investment visa. I'd be willing to accept many thousands of micro-loans form thaivisa forum members! Great returns on investment!

[leoalex]

we all need to get together with the media and share all of these rude and anti-human rule changes. they are killing the core people who really love living here and putting money flow into the economy. trust me...MONEY TALKS.

i begged readers to join me with the retirement visa changes on dependents...NOBODY OFFERED.

i ask again...LETS SPEAK UP TO CNN..BBC...anyone...THE NATION.

is this just a sounding board...or a group of strong farang who are REAL winners ...not REAL whiners?

JOIN ME...lets make some noise. IT WILL WORK.

i will meet anyone...anyplace to form a group to go to the media about all of these racist laws popping up.

if you dont act now...YOUR VISA WILL BE NEXT.they will find a loophole in every case.

any takers?

In europe visa rules also changes approx every month, everything become more hard day from day (even for tourists who go spend money). And money not talks here (as minimum on official level).

Human rights about visas it only bla-bla-bla. Lot of nationalities (including thais) have troubles getting visas and see how european embassies treat him. It one from reasons why things like this happen more and more often.

Do you see any in us/europe in news about visa troubles for foregeiners? Same thing here.

My suggestion to topic started to try visit immigration office at other city.

[danmtl]

About 4 years ago, I bought a condo for 7.8M baht, but it had an assessed value of 4.3M baht. I've been renewing my visa every year with zero problems, so hopefully this will continue next year as well. However, I'm getting tired of Thailand changing the rules every year. I've been thinking about selling my condo and moving to another country anyways (probably Indonesia).

-Jeff

[Firefan]

Logpoacher; I understand your frustration and happy for you that you at least found a temporary solution given you some time(1 year).

Again; The reason the land office price is lower is often that seller/buyer wish to pay as little tax on the transaction as possible. That tax is based on the nos given to the land registry. I.e. in an effort to save you (or the seller) money they(whomever handled your docs, the agent/lawyer/seller Etc.) put in a lowballed, lower end number tax was paid on.

This is widely accepted, even at the land office - whom generally will only question outragously low prices/big drops from last sale, big diff. from other condos in building Etc. It is not considered "tax fixing" but rather; settting a low but realistic price that the normal market price swings will not reach(needing a NEW lower evaluation at sale). Here, unlike in most Western countries, nobody comes and checks the building/condo. It is all done on paper.

The 3M Baht investment visa is/was rather rare, wherefore nobody (lawyer/agent Etc.) would even THINK of making the valuated price higher than needed(unless involved in the visa application process too - but even THEN we deal with 2 different departments within the company). I can see the Thais shaking their heads at the crazy farang asking for HIGHER valuation so he can pay MORE tax .

So you now own a condo in full AND have 3M Baht + in the bank..... you better be careful cause you sound like "veeeery hansaaaam maaan!"

Cheers!

[danmtl]

About 4 years ago, I bought a condo for 7.8M baht, but it had an assessed value of 4.3M baht. I've been renewing my visa every year with zero problems, so hopefully this will continue next year as well. However, I'm getting tired of Thailand changing the rules every year. I've been thinking about selling my condo and moving to another country anyways (probably Indonesia).

-Jeff

I would check the law carefully before you move there and where? But indonesia is very nice and peoples much friendly than Thailand i have move out of there base on the same problem for visa will never return everything is about Money Sht country if you ask me worst in South East Asia

[Firefan]

But where to keep our passport which we by law should carry at all times, if we are butt naked?

we all need to get together with the media and share all of these rude and anti-human rule changes. they are killing the core people who really love living here and putting money flow into the economy. trust me...MONEY TALKS.

i begged readers to join me with the retirement visa changes on dependents...NOBODY OFFERED.

i ask again...LETS SPEAK UP TO CNN..BBC...anyone...THE NATION.

is this just a sounding board...or a group of strong farang who are REAL winners ...not REAL whiners?

JOIN ME...lets make some noise. IT WILL WORK.

i will meet anyone...anyplace to form a group to go to the media about all of these racist laws popping up.

if you dont act now...YOUR VISA WILL BE NEXT.they will find a loophole in every case.

any takers?

Have an idea: Let's get together in front of the Immigrations Building and strip naked!! Did it work for the ladies who did that a while ago? Imagine a group of aging, balding farangs with paunches naked in front of a government builing in BKK... the mind boggles but its guaranteed to get some CNN...

Apologies IMSOBAD for my facetious comment above but I could not resist...

This is a serious issue but the reason nobody joined on this before may be that they all thought (like I do now) WHAT IF it did NOT work...

The management of visas for foreigners and residencies does not seem to be rational or objective to our way of thinking, ergo, is there any guarantee that the outcome of such a protest will be handled objecively?

Immigrations say jump and we say "How High??".. A foreigner in a foreign land; it goes with the territory..

[mauiguy90]

I have just returned from attempting to extend my permission to stay for another year, based on owning a condo worth more than 3M baht. As everyone probably knows, this was abolished for new applicants last year and intially it was stated that existing aliens in this category would also not be given any further extensions. However, after a lot of panic, this was changed and existing users were "grandfathered" in. Subsequently, I extended my permission to stay by one year.

Today, I was not expecting any trouble, but I was refused an extension. I was told that the law has changed and that they no longer consider the price you paid for the condo, but instead look at a price which is assessed by the government. On my receipt from the Land Registry these figures are given as ราคาทุนทรัพย์ 3,500,000 and ราคาประเมิน 2,270,000. Effectively, they now consider that my investment is 730,000 baht too low. If I put this amount in a bank account, they would give me permission to stay (initially they said I would have to put 3M baht in a bank account, but then one of them produced a procedural manual and decided that the investment does not have to be in one unit). They emphasised that this amount would have to stay permanently in the bank, and produced a letter in English to this effect.

I pointed out, and they agreed, that I have had four previous extensions granted on this basis but they stated again that "Immigration has changed the law" (this was said in English, twice).

Needless to say, I do not have a spare 730,000 baht which I can put in a bank and not touch for ever, so I now have 26 days left in Thailand to sort this out.

Has anyone encountered this problem or does anyone have any ideas?

Probably cost you a bit but cheaper to contact Sun Belt Asia to see if they can help you out. Nothing like getting legal help for legal problems. Their main office number at Rachadapisek Road by Fortune Hotel is 02-642-0213. I've talked to Andy before although you probably need a Thai attorney to address this problem. You could also call the Asoke office. They can probably fix this problem up. Good luck!

[rdg_john]

I also have the clear feeling that I am not welcome here any more, and it is a rather uncomfortable and unpleasant. I don't understand the reason for this. I am not one of those

Spot on!

I think that at best we are tolerated, nothing more. And then, tolerated only if there is financial value to be had.

[thaigene2]

The media campaign idea isn't a bad one actually. But I would aim it at the financial/business press first.

The Financial Times correspondent here writes pretty well and her reports carry some weight. It would need to be targeted and you would need to carefully craft your message first.

Foreigners whining about the country they retire in is a bit of a yawn. But a bigger story about how thousands of old guys retired here on promises that they could stay - only to then get kicked out of the place after they bought condos in good faith is actually quite an intersting story. Thailand would definitely sit up and take notice - and would probably react to it.