Has Anyone Thought About "gray Water Systems?"

[Pepe']

I'm also thinking about designing a "gray water system" to recover shower and sink water.

Pottable water is rapidly becoming a serious probel here in SOCAL.

In the future Thailand will be faced with similar crisis as some areas are all ready.

Any Gray water systems out there?...

[mr_hippo]

Must visit the opticians - thought it said 'gay' water systems!

[ratchabuild]

I'm also thinking about designing a "gray water system" to recover shower and sink water.

Pottable water is rapidly becoming a serious probel here in SOCAL.

In the future Thailand will be faced with similar crisis as some areas are all ready.

Any Gray water systems out there?...

Saw a handwash basin mounted on top of the loo that emptied directly into the toilet bowl. Seemed clever idea.

[pkrv]

Must visit the opticians - thought it said 'gay' water systems!

Apparently some time ago in the UK you could lose your pension for liking soft furnishings, is this connected?

[Pepe']

Come on you guys "Gay Water" was the recent scandal in Jersey where the Governor "came out" on national TV.

I need technical specs...

[pkrv]

Come on you guys "Gay Water" was the recent scandal in Jersey where the Governor "came out" on national TV.

I need technical specs...

Don't know I recall seeing a US documentary on this type of stuff grey water basically bath water, hand basin water etc. You may be out of the ability of Thailand to cope element here I don’t know?

[simon43]

I think grey water recycling is a great idea to conserve natural resources. I wanted to do exactly this for our small hotel when we were building it last year. But it was very difficult to find a system that was readily available in Thailand. (I didn't have time to 'experiment'). I found some great systems from New Zealand, but they were above my budget.

I think that if you started a compnay manufacturing water reuse systems in Thailand, you would have a good business!

Simon

[Smithson]

Rather than gray water, what about just saving rain water.

Thailand has high rainfall, so if you've got the room just put in some tanks.

We rented a house years ago with three large 'jars', during heavy rain they would fill very quickly and had enough water to last through almost the entire dry season.

[chownah]

Thailand mostly has no shortage of water and the expense of gray water systems is not warranted here. As mentioned above, collecting rain water is an option and it is much cheaper than building a gray water system. Mostly water shortages here are only serious for agriculture in Isaan and the complexity and cost of a gray water system to appreciably benefit agriculture on a large scale bascially rules it out. On the other hand in my village the typical household waste water system only puts water and waste from toilets into the hole in the ground and all else is left on the surface where it waters gardens....

Chownah

[Gary A]

I can't really call it a system but all our sink, shower and washing machine water drains by gravity to a garden area. The area is surrounded by trees and plants. We do catch a lot of rain water and I have plans to catch a lot more of it. Rain water is great for showering and washing clothes.

[Smithson]

I can't really call it a system but all our sink, shower and washing machine water drains by gravity to a garden area. The area is surrounded by trees and plants. We do catch a lot of rain water and I have plans to catch a lot more of it. Rain water is great for showering and washing clothes.

These 'systems' are common, sometimes bits of vegetable with seeds wash from the sink, then self sow making an effort free garden.

Rainwater is definitely the go, in Australia rainwater tanks are compulsory.

[Naam]

I think that if you started a compnay manufacturing water reuse systems in Thailand, you would have a good business!

if you call the fastest bankruptcy in Thailand a "good business" the answer is a clear "yes".

let's be reasonable. this country is not ripe for schemes like "gray water". not now and (most probably) not in 25 years.

[elkangorito]

Providing this 'grey' water only comes from washing machines, baths, showers, sinks & the like, there is no need for any treatment. This water can be directly plumbed into a tank & then used to water the garden/lawn etc. All that is required is that the water allow to stand in the tank so that the solids settle. Having a header tank (trap) can solve this problem.

[simon43]

I think that if you started a compnay manufacturing water reuse systems in Thailand, you would have a good business!

if you call the fastest bankruptcy in Thailand a "good business" the answer is a clear "yes".

[\quote]

Well, since here in Phuket it is compulsory for all new hotels to be built with waste-water reuse systems, the business idea doesn't seem all that bad

Simon

[elkangorito]

I think that if you started a compnay manufacturing water reuse systems in Thailand, you would have a good business!

if you call the fastest bankruptcy in Thailand a "good business" the answer is a clear "yes".

Well, since here in Phuket it is compulsory for all new hotels to be built with waste-water reuse systems, the business idea doesn't seem all that bad

Simon

'Waste water' & 'Grey water' can be 2 different things.

Look up "biocycle" on google...I used to work for that company in the late 80's. These treatment systems are not exactly a new idea & they are not difficult to build, if you're handy with fibreglass.

[elkangorito]

Just found this interesting link on the net;

http://www.yourwatersaver.com.au/

Also, be aware that grey water cannot be used on root vegetables (health hazard). Grey water is therefore classified as water originating from the bathroom & laundry. Ideally, it should be used immediately & not stored but can be stored for up to 24 hours.

[pkrv]

I can't really call it a system but all our sink, shower and washing machine water drains by gravity to a garden area. The area is surrounded by trees and plants. We do catch a lot of rain water and I have plans to catch a lot more of it. Rain water is great for showering and washing clothes.

In the old days was that called a septic tank? / cess pool (don't know, on the spelling but I know what I want to say ) I understood you needed special detergents (ish) to not destroy the (clingon) biosphere (OK I joke) but is this also an option?

Edited September 27, 2007 by pkrv

[elkangorito]

I can't really call it a system but all our sink, shower and washing machine water drains by gravity to a garden area. The area is surrounded by trees and plants. We do catch a lot of rain water and I have plans to catch a lot more of it. Rain water is great for showering and washing clothes.

In the old days was that called a septic tank? / cess pool (don't know, on the spelling but I know what I want to say ) I understood you needed special detergents (ish) to not destroy the (clingon) biosphere (OK I joke) but is this also an option?

A septic tank (a yank? ) accepts grey water plus toilet effluent. There are aerobic/anaerobic domestic treatment systems that do produce water that can be used on vegetables etc, with the exception of trees that bear stone fruit. Here's the link;

http://www.biocyclejowagroup.com.au/biocycle/index.html

[paulsmithson]

Drainage systems in most of thailand are a joke.

I have seen klongs full of sh*t because unscrupulous people have simply piped their sewage into them.Then others bathing or even washing dishes in the water!

Septic tanks built inside the houses ( and new houses at that) and waste water pipes simply discharging slightly below floor level.

There is real need for education in this area as simple sewage treatment systems for individual houses are easy to design and not overly expensive to construct here in a country where unskilled labour is so cheap.

[visionary]

Gray water of any form should never be used to support human life or any food sourse whether plant or animal.There are far too many contaminants and there is no assurance of protection from error. The same applies to composted human dry waste. One of the major issues is heavy metal contamination that results from industrial exposure.Another issue is radioactive contamination. Both of these are accumulative and need to be removed from the food chain.As someone said earlier conservation is of greater concern than recyling.Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening and consumption.Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere and the gathering system. If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly.

[Gary A]

I can't really call it a system but all our sink, shower and washing machine water drains by gravity to a garden area. The area is surrounded by trees and plants. We do catch a lot of rain water and I have plans to catch a lot more of it. Rain water is great for showering and washing clothes.

In the old days was that called a septic tank? / cess pool (don't know, on the spelling but I know what I want to say ) I understood you needed special detergents (ish) to not destroy the (clingon) biosphere (OK I joke) but is this also an option?

Up country, here in Thailand, septic systems are very commonly used. The waste from the toilets go into the first stage where the solids sink to the bottom. The excess water goes into the second stage and percolates into the ground. Once the correct bacterial action starts, the units are self maintaining. If the unit is not working properly it is necessary to pump them out. That's why you see the little tanker trucks driving around on a regular basis. I have never had to pump our system out. (Three years). Bleach and some detergents from a washing machine will kill the bacteria so it is important to use a separate system to dispose of the gray water.

In the US, country homes also use septic systems. My last home there had a thousand gallon triple stage tank. The water from the third stage tank goes into an underground grid of perforated pipe or clay tile if available. Gray water follows the same route but by passes the septic tank. If installed properly, those systems last the life of the home and are often re-used for a new home at the same site.

[simon43]

When I built my hotel in Phuket last year, I had to provide both 'clean' water supply from a well, and dispose of grey and black water from the guest bathrooms and toilets. We dug a 14 metre well which has never run dry, and provides a clean supply of water for the bathrooms. (We pass the water through a large filter to remove the sand).

The blackwater from the toilet goes into a septic tank, which then drains into a 'dry well'. The grey water from the showers and basins pass through a 'fat-trap' and then into the dry well.

I have 6 septic tank/dry wells which is adequate for our 10 guest rooms and staff quarters. so far, it's worked very well and was cheap and easy to install.

Simon

[Smithson]

Gray water of any form should never be used to support human life or any food sourse whether plant or animal.There are far too many contaminants and there is no assurance of protection from error. The same applies to composted human dry waste. One of the major issues is heavy metal contamination that results from industrial exposure.Another issue is radioactive contamination. Both of these are accumulative and need to be removed from the food chain.As someone said earlier conservation is of greater concern than recyling.Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening and consumption.Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere and the gathering system. If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly.

I'm interested in what your saying.

Aren't their composted human dry waste sewage system being used in Australia and other countries?

"Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening" "Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere"

So this would apply to all rainwater, not just that caught/stored?

"If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly." Even if the rainwater was only used on plants which were later eaten?

[chownah]

Gray water of any form should never be used to support human life or any food sourse whether plant or animal.There are far too many contaminants and there is no assurance of protection from error. The same applies to composted human dry waste. One of the major issues is heavy metal contamination that results from industrial exposure.Another issue is radioactive contamination. Both of these are accumulative and need to be removed from the food chain.As someone said earlier conservation is of greater concern than recyling.Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening and consumption.Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere and the gathering system. If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly.

I'm interested in what your saying.

Aren't their composted human dry waste sewage system being used in Australia and other countries?

"Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening" "Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere"

So this would apply to all rainwater, not just that caught/stored?

"If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly." Even if the rainwater was only used on plants which were later eaten?

Generally speaking a farmer does not rely on water to privide nutrients to crops....but....as it turns out...generally speaking.....rainwater is the best water for crops. It contains alot of dissolved oxygen and nitrogen both as gases and additionally there is a small amount of nitrogen compounds in the air which can easily be utilized by plants. Also, the very very light dusts that get washed out of the air are generally very fertile (although the amount you get with the rainfall is probably inconsequential). The usual wisdom is that rainfall is the best water for your crops, surface water (lakes and streams) is second best and ground water is third......but......be assured that the difference in quality among these three sources is very small and farming practices have so much more influence on crops that nutrients from natural waters can be ignored....water from all three sources works just fine.

Chownah

[tjo o tjim]

Must visit the opticians - thought it said 'gay' water systems!

No... that's Northern California.

[Gary A]

Years ago a good friend of mine worked part time at the city sewage disposal plant. He used to bring huge baskets of beautiful tomatoes to his regular job. Most of the guys would fill their lunch boxes full and take them home. One day someone insisted on paying him for the tomatoes. My friend refused and told the guy that he gets them free so would not charge anyone for them. The guy still insisted on at least paying for the seed and some labor. My friend explained that the tomatoes grew by themselves and all he did was pick them. They grew in what came out of the sewage treatment tanks. No one wanted any more tomatoes. My friend claimed that after the treatment what came out of the tanks was more sterile than regular dirt. I too didn't want any more tomatoes. It's just the idea of the seeds passing through people and growing in what was human waste.

[tjo o tjim]

Also, be aware that grey water cannot be used on root vegetables (health hazard). Grey water is therefore classified as water originating from the bathroom & laundry. Ideally, it should be used immediately & not stored but can be stored for up to 24 hours.

Good point on the veggies-- but I'm surprised by water storage concern.

I would think that a sand filter would do a good enough job to make the water safe for both veggies and indefinite storage.

Rainwater collection is the first tier-- but that should be used for "clean" water. Soaps (nitrates) need to be broken down somehow, and sending them to the garden is (environmentally) a much better option than not segregating grey and black water. The other option is to use filtered grey water for evaporative cooling... but you have to be pretty careful with that.

[visionary]

Gray water of any form should never be used to support human life or any food sourse whether plant or animal.There are far too many contaminants and there is no assurance of protection from error. The same applies to composted human dry waste. One of the major issues is heavy metal contamination that results from industrial exposure.Another issue is radioactive contamination. Both of these are accumulative and need to be removed from the food chain.As someone said earlier conservation is of greater concern than recyling.Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening and consumption.Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere and the gathering system. If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly.

I'm interested in what your saying.

Aren't their composted human dry waste sewage system being used in Australia and other countries?

"Rain water is naturally distilled water so there are questions of nutritional content for gardening" "Another concern about rainwater is how many contaminants were picked up in the atmosphere"

So this would apply to all rainwater, not just that caught/stored?

"If you live near a sourse of biological or industrial contamination then rainbarrels filled by eavestrough spouts could be potentially very deadly." Even if the rainwater was only used on plants which were later eaten?

Composted dry waste is being used in many places in ways that it should not be. Farmers using it locally have been given light distribution formulas that specify that only one application is permitted evry 25 years. There are always people who cheat because they think they know better or don't care. I met one local farmer that bragged that he was using 2 to 3 times the recommended distribution rate and that he was doing it every year.He said he didn't care about the toxicity because his product was going into export and he couldn't care less about foreigners.The local distributors have provided chemical analysis of random samples. If you saw those analysis reports you would never use it once in good conscience.

Excessive consumption of rainwater results in demineralisation just as it does from drinking too much distilled water.

I once worked at a plant that produced sulphuric acid. All sheet metal was consumed by acidic condensation to the point that it had to be replaced every 2 years maximum. Throughout the plant, showers were everywhere with sirens attached in case you came in contact with condensates. Employee cars up to 200 yards from the plant were pitted by raindrops formed by escaped vapors. During light rain no one went out doors between buildings without full safety protection. There are many chemical and industrial plants that work with or produce chemicals much more deadly than sulphuric acid.

Our cities are filled with radioactive contamination. I have a friend that owns a major metal salvage yard . All loads going into his yard , including household. have to pass under a radiation detecting arch.All loads leaving the yard are carefully rechecked with gieger counters because of the number of loads that have been returned to him from the states as hazardous waste due to radioactive contamination. All vacuum cleaners coming into the yard are now treated as radioactive contaminated due to the number of them that trigger radiation alarms.

I wouldn't suggest that all rainwater is unfit in terms of contamination. My concern is that most people gather it from rooftops. If you live near large sewage lagoons or industrial sites you have to wonder what has collected on your roof between rainfalls. You also have to wonder how much bird and animal excrements have gathered there as well as what moulds may be there or in your drainage system. The toxicity of water in your roof fed barrel will vary dpending on the ratio of accumulated contaminants to water content of your barrel. Most people I know that gather rainwater from rooftops only do so when they are satisfied that their roof has been thoroughly cleansed by heavy rain. Even then they don't drink it. Cotaminated rainwater is primarily an urban concern because that is where industrial contaminants are the highest. However , In Eastern Canada and the NE US acid rain is destroying some species of trees in whole forests many, many miles from industrial sites.

[visionary]

One final note on grey water. Municipal water treament systems involve the cooperative actions of dedicated lifelong career employees, engineers and scientists. Despite the years of experience and education that they bring to the task, people still die from their mistakes.

In light of that knowledge and the fact that in my life time, my knowledge and access to technology will never exceed theirs, I personally would never consider using home treated grey water or rooftop gathered water for any use whatsoever unless forced to by dire circumstances.

[elkangorito]

Also, be aware that grey water cannot be used on root vegetables (health hazard). Grey water is therefore classified as water originating from the bathroom & laundry. Ideally, it should be used immediately & not stored but can be stored for up to 24 hours.

Good point on the veggies-- but I'm surprised by water storage concern.

I would think that a sand filter would do a good enough job to make the water safe for both veggies and indefinite storage.

Rainwater collection is the first tier-- but that should be used for "clean" water. Soaps (nitrates) need to be broken down somehow, and sending them to the garden is (environmentally) a much better option than not segregating grey and black water. The other option is to use filtered grey water for evaporative cooling... but you have to be pretty careful with that.

Unfortunately it's the biological & chemical make-up of the grey water that makes it unsafe, something which a sand filter cannot change or fix. The only effective way to treat effluent is by using an aerobic system.

One final note on grey water. Municipal water treament systems involve the cooperative actions of dedicated lifelong career employees, engineers and scientists. Despite the years of experience and education that they bring to the task, people still die from their mistakes.

In light of that knowledge and the fact that in my life time, my knowledge and access to technology will never exceed theirs, I personally would never consider using home treated grey water or rooftop gathered water for any use whatsoever unless forced to by dire circumstances.

I was born & raised on 'tank water'. This water was collected in large corrugated iron tanks as it ran off the corrugated iron roof. Even today, there are many Australians who collect water using this method & drink it, without any problems. I think it's better for you - all the dead birds, lizards, leaves add a bit of 'substance' & flavour to it.

Edited September 30, 2007 by elkangorito