Us Tax Deadlines

[Jingthing]

Well, procrastinator that I am, I am working on my 2006 tax filing. I think I will have to physically mail in the forms rather than online filing, so here is the question.

Assuming the tax filing date for expats (and extenders) is October 15, what counts as on time? A postmark for October 15 from Thailand? I know that would count for a domestic filing.

[GuestHouse]

I think you'll find it is 'Received by Date' - It get cracking on the form and send it by DHL if I were you.

[Jingthing]

Yes, I think you are right.

BTW, for those with some baht interest or income, the official dollar/baht rate for 2006 is 37.876 Baht. Memories ...

[lanny]

Like so many answers to tax questions, the answer here is: "It Depends."

If you filed a request for an extension of time to file (Form 4868) before either 4/15 or 6/15, the due date is 10/15. An official Thai postmark IS accepted by the IRS as proof of timely mailing. Note that it must be an official postmark, not that of some mail service. If you use FedEx or DHL, be sure you check with them as to which class of service to use. I don't have the list but I know that only certain services (usually the shorter times) are acceptable.

If you did not file an extension request, the postmark doesn't make any difference. Late filed returns are considered filed when IRS receives the return, not the postmark date. Of course, if you didn't request an extension, your return was due 4/15, or 6/15 if you included a statement that you were outside the US on 4/15 and are entitled to the automatic 60 day extension.

Finally, if you don't owe anything on your return, it doesn't make any real difference. Late filing and late payment penalties are a percentage of the amount due. If nothing is due, then 50% of nothing is still nothing.

[Jingthing]

Great info, Lanny. I did file an extension.

If I mail it registered Thai mail from a Thai post office, would that do? If I did the same thing using a mail service are you saying it wouldn't ever get a real Thai postmark?

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Great info, Lanny. I did file an extension.

If I mail it registered Thai mail from a Thai post office, would that do? If I did the same thing using a mail service are you saying it wouldn't ever get a real Thai postmark?

Jingthing

Don't think that DHL, FedEx, etc deliver to PO Boxes, only to a real address.

At least with the Thai post office they'll put the postage on with a date.  And the delivery time would only be a couple days later than the express services anyway.  

Be careful on one point, tho, don't think you can send "registered" to an IRS PO Box, no one to sign for.  

Thai Post does have international EMS service.  I used to use that 10++ years ago to send my passport back to the U.S. for the annual Non-O visa (yeah, I know, certainly not recommended these days, but I'm on the retirement extension since '98 so not a problem) then the price went way up so stopped using the service.  Only a day or two faster than regular air mail anyway.

http://www.thailandpost.com/newweb/index_en.asp

Mac

[JonnieB]

my vote is for the thai postal mark date...just as it is in the usa...us postal service post-mark date. if it was the "received by" date, everyone would be at the mercy of USPS in getting it there on time.

[lanny]

A couple of points --

You can use DHL, FedEx, etc., but you need a street address. Maybe the offices for the delivery services will have a reference but I wouldn't count on it. I don't know the street addresses because I never use anything buy the Thai post office.

If using the post, I would suggest using EMS. The purpose is not to get the return there sooned (what difference does it make to you?) but to give you proof of mailing.

Registered or other accountable mail to the IRS boxes is acceptable. The post office does get a receipt but it usually is just a rubber stamp. All accountable mail is accounted for, though.

As a taxpayer, you have no real interest in how fast or slow the delivery service is unless you are filing after your due date and owe money. If you don't owe anything, speed of delivery is irrelevant; there are no penalties for filing late. After your due date, however, it is when received by IRS that counts and a few extra days could increase the penalty.

Edited October 5, 2007 by lanny

[Tywais]

After your due date, however, it is when received by IRS that counts and a few extra days could increase the penalty.

Last year I posted my return to the local post office a day before deadline (14th June). Several weeks later got a letter from IRS indicating I was late in payment and penalties & interest was due. I returned a letter to them stating that my understanding was that the deadline was the post mark date and that I had submitted it before then. They (IRS) responded that they would let it go this time with no penalties/interest. Possibly the post office didn't stamp it for a day or two. At least the IRS was flexible, which surprised me.

This year I sent it a week early, standard mail, and no problems. I agree though, EMS would be the safest route.

[tutsiwarrior]

Finally, if you don't owe anything on your return, it doesn't make any real difference. Late filing and late payment penalties are a percentage of the amount due. If nothing is due, then 50% of nothing is still nothing.

is there a fine, ie. a flat amount charged for violating IRS regulations...as opposed to a penalty based upon a percentage of the amount due, to be considered in the event of filing late (or not filing at all) if no tax is due...talking about the foreign income exclusion, etc...

[Jingthing]

I have sent Thai registered mail before from a service. They just put a tracking sticker on it and I can see that the item left Thailand. There is no return receipt so I wouldn't be worried about sending it to a postal box. It turns out I don't owe any federal taxes so the pressure is off there, but I do owe some to my old state (drats).

[Thanyaburi Mac]

I have sent Thai registered mail before from a service. They just put a tracking sticker on it and I can see that the item left Thailand. There is no return receipt so I wouldn't be worried about sending it to a postal box. It turns out I don't owe any federal taxes so the pressure is off there, but I do owe some to my old state (drats).

"Old state?"  Happily Oregon classifies me as a "non resident" and as such don't have to pay income tax unless I'm there 30 or more days a year.

Mac

[tutsiwarrior]

I have sent Thai registered mail before from a service. They just put a tracking sticker on it and I can see that the item left Thailand. There is no return receipt so I wouldn't be worried about sending it to a postal box. It turns out I don't owe any federal taxes so the pressure is off there, but I do owe some to my old state (drats).

"Old state?" Happily Oregon classifies me as a "non resident" and as such don't have to pay income tax unless I'm there 30 or more days a year.

Mac

I'm from California where they like to tax corpses...somebody better get in there an' 'californicate' Oregon...

[Jingthing]

I have sent Thai registered mail before from a service. They just put a tracking sticker on it and I can see that the item left Thailand. There is no return receipt so I wouldn't be worried about sending it to a postal box. It turns out I don't owe any federal taxes so the pressure is off there, but I do owe some to my old state (drats).

"Old state?" Happily Oregon classifies me as a "non resident" and as such don't have to pay income tax unless I'm there 30 or more days a year.

Mac

I am filing for 2006 and I lived in the old state for most of that year before moving to Thailand. I do see it as an opportunity to tell them I have flown the coop by filing a partial year return with my Thai address. I imagine they will get the message.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[TerryLH]

"...Oregon classifies me as a "non resident" and as such don't have to pay income tax..."

The same for California, at least for pensions.

"...by filing a partial year return with my Thai address. I imagine they will get the message."

It took California a couple of years to figure out that pension money earned in Ca was exempt as long as I was out of country. (They were cross referencing my W2's and Soc Sec number.)

[Jingthing]

California is reputed to be very aggressive in going after state taxes, real and imagined.

[PeaceBlondie]

After your due date, however, it is when received by IRS that counts and a few extra days could increase the penalty.

Last year I posted my return to the local post office a day before deadline (14th June). Several weeks later got a letter from IRS indicating I was late in payment and penalties & interest was due. I returned a letter to them stating that my understanding was that the deadline was the post mark date and that I had submitted it before then. They (IRS) responded that they would let it go this time with no penalties/interest. Possibly the post office didn't stamp it for a day or two. At least the IRS was flexible, which surprised me.

This year I sent it a week early, standard mail, and no problems. I agree though, EMS would be the safest route.

When I worked at the IRS, we had a secret manual (the Law Enforcement Manual) and a Reasonable Cause Manual. There are tolerances on certain dates (but they cannot tell you the limits) and on certain amounts (likewise). The computer system may now be sophisticated enough that they can trace your filing time history back several years and give you a break if it's your first offense. But it's not something to take a chance on. Also, your reply to them might have mentioned a reason that qualified as reasonable cause for late filing, by the judgment of that tax examiner.

As for street addresses, the only one I ever knew was for the big service center in Austin, which may have been 3651 S. Interregional (International?) Highway. But the zip code was 73301, which would normally indicate Oklahoma, not central Texas!

[JimGant]

Well, hope you don't owe too much tax. When the IRS sees the "15/10/2550" date stamp, you'll owe interest on 543 year's worth of delinquent taxes.....

[Tywais]

The computer system may now be sophisticated enough that they can trace your filing time history back several years and give you a break if it's your first offense.

Now that I think about it, I believe their response did reflect that statement. I have never been late in the past.

[ChiangMaiThai]

I'm a US citizen, but live in LOS permanently. Just started a job here. Pays $2-3k a month. I've got a work permit and I am taxed here. Am I supposed to file anything with the IRS?

[Jingthing]

I'm a US citizen, but live in LOS permanently. Just started a job here. Pays $2-3k a month. I've got a work permit and I am taxed here. Am I supposed to file anything with the IRS?

Yes, I think so, but there are protections against double taxation. Have fun. The US embassy embassy web site has info on the official baht conversion rates to use.

I came here after retirement but I am curious about what younger people do. Do you have the option to pay into the social security system? If not, it would hard to earn enough credits to ever receive social security benefits. I am one of those people who think this program is going to exist for quite a long time.

Filing Requirements

If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and for paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad.

Your income, filing status, and age generally determine whether you must file an income tax return. Generally, you must file a return for 2006 if your gross income from worldwide sources is at least the amount shown for your filing status in the following table.

Filing Status* Amount

Single $8,450

65 or older $9,700

Head of household $10,850

65 or older $12,100

Qualifying widow(er) $13,600

65 or older $14,600

Married filing jointly $16,900

Not living with spouse at end of year $3,300

One spouse 65 or older $17,900

Both spouses 65 or older $18,900

Married filing separately $3,300

*If you are the dependent of another taxpayer, see the instructions for Form 1040 for more information on whether you must file a return.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

Jingthing, I'll give a quick estimate at answering your question about younger American workers who stay overseas for a long time, in relation to their SS retirement earnings. Unless they're working for certain multinationals, it's doubtful they'd have FICA and Medicare taxes (6.2% and 1.45% of gross wages, respectively) withheld from their paycheck. If they are self employed in Thailand (which is unusual) and report their earnings on a Schedule C or SE and pay around net 13 or 14% employment taxes, they'd continue to rack up earnings under the SS system. Few would do that, and for many, the baht earnings would not amount to high average dollar earnings.

The Americans I've met or heard about in Thailand, under the age of 40, don't expect to draw SS, and they shouldn't expect to draw it if they aren't contributing to the fund for many years. Even those between 40 and 50 are probably reducing their retirement benefit quickly if they're not contributing.

Jim Gant, your calendar is backwards: they would be filing their return 543 years early!

tywais, even when I quit in 1998, the data system was getting easy to check on prior late filings. In your case, the tax examiner assigned to resolve your case could check it in a few minutes, I suppose.

[Lost in LOS]

there is an electronic service you can sign up for on the irs site and do it online. i use bank of america and when i need to send a check to the irs etc. i use electronic checks online