Stickman Article About Learning Thai

[wasabi]

www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

Edited October 7, 2007 by sbk

[canadiangirl]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

It's an interesting article.

I can see a few other reasons why Thais might switch to English even when a farang is trying to speak Thai:

It's really tedious to speak to someone who is a beginner in a language you are fluent in -- personally, I'll only sit through these kinds of conversations if it's a friend or someone I feel like being nice to. It's so much easier to switch to a language that you both speak -- so I can see how Thais who speak good English would prefer to just speak English to a farang who speaks only basic Thai.

As well, maybe the Thais are just trying to be nice. Where I live, most people speak French. When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English -- because it annoys me that they don't put in a tiny effort to learn 2 or 3 words in the local language. But if they look bashful and say "excusez-moi" and try to stumble forward in a few words of French, I'll switch to English to be helpful.

Edited October 7, 2007 by canadiangirl

[wasabi]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

It's an interesting article.

I can see a few other reasons why Thais might switch to English even when a farang is trying to speak Thai:

It's really tedious to speak to someone who is a beginner in a language you are fluent in -- personally, I'll only sit through these kinds of conversations if it's a friend or someone I feel like being nice to. It's so much easier to switch to a language that you both speak -- so I can see how Thais who speak good English would prefer to just speak English to a farang who speaks only basic Thai.

As well, maybe the Thais are just trying to be nice. Where I live, most people speak French. When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English -- because it annoys me that they don't put in a tiny effort to learn 2 or 3 words in the local language. But if they look bashful and say "excusez-moi" and try to stumble forward in a few words of French, I'll switch to English to be helpful.

C girl thanks for your reply and I agree your the possibility of what you say. However I know it goes beyond this. Here's a simple example. I was at a Thai temple, here in the USA with a Thai friend. I ordered fried banana กล้วยทอด and the staff member said can you please speak in English. So I said fried banana. My Thai friend said I had pronounced it fine and she couldn't understand why he said that. Only he knows but he knew I was a student there so he shouldn't have been "shocked" I was speaking Thai. The only thing I could think of was he was somehow protective of the language and didn't want to encourage foreigners to know it. I found it very insulting because I was making an effort to learn the language and the culture and did not at all see it as showing off or anything that merited him to say that.

Edited October 7, 2007 by wasabi

[qualtrough]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

I appreciate that everyone's experience is different, but here is my experience for what it is worth. In my 17 years here since I first arrived 28 years ago I have had a totally opposite experience. I can't recall any Thais who were bothered by my speaking or trying to speak their language, and have had plenty of encouragement. Although the language may be difficult I think Thailand provides as many or more opportunities to learn the language than other countries.

As an aside, I don't agree with your statement about Thailand outsmarting foreigners as being at all true. I don't see how a country that has lost a good share of its territory to foreign countries over the last 110 years, has been invaded and occupied by foreign powers at least twice during that period, has seen its economy almost entirely dominated by fairly recent immigrants (Chinese), that depends on a number of foreigners for many basic and key services, that was bested in battle by a far tinier foreign country (Laos), can be described as being any good at 'outsmarting foreigners'. Quite the opposite if you look at the scorecard.

Edited October 7, 2007 by qualtrough

[wasabi]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

I appreciate that everyone's experience is different, but here is my experience for what it is worth. In my 17 years here since I first arrived 28 years ago I have had a totally opposite experience. I can't recall any Thais who were bothered by my speaking or trying to speak their language, and have had plenty of encouragement. Although the language may be difficult I think Thailand provides as many or more opportunities to learn the language than other countries.

As an aside, I don't agree with your statement about Thailand outsmarting foreigners as being at all true. I don't see how a country that has lost a good share of its territory to foreign countries over the last 110 years, has been invaded and occupied by foreign powers at least twice during that period, has seen its economy almost entirely dominated by fairly recent immigrants (Chinese), that depends on a number of foreigners for many basic and key services, that was bested in battle by a far tinier foreign country (Laos), can be described as being any good at 'outsmarting foreigners'. Quite the opposite if you look at the scorecard.

I am quite happy to stand corrected about the attitude of Thai people towards me learning Thai though as I replied to Canadian girl I personally have experienced what the author wrote. However I'm more interested in your rebuttal about Thailand being the one who's been outsmarted. When was Thailand occupied by foreign powers? I always hear that they were the only ones never to be colonized. That's if you don't count the ubiquitous presence of KFC and Coca Cola. I have heard the argument that Chinese dominate the culture so perhaps I need to rethink my statement based on that alone.

[Jingthing]

I think the article is spot on. Thailand was occupied by the Japanese in WW2.

[qualtrough]

I am quite happy to stand corrected about the attitude of Thai people towards me learning Thai though as I replied to Canadian girl I personally have experienced what the author wrote. However I'm more interested in your rebuttal about Thailand being the one who's been outsmarted. When was Thailand occupied by foreign powers? I always hear that they were the only ones never to be colonized. That's if you don't count the ubiquitous presence of KFC and Coca Cola. I have heard the argument that Chinese dominate the culture so perhaps I need to rethink my statement based on that alone.

I didn't mean to correct your experience, just saying mine has been very different. Next time you have someone tell you to 'speak English' as happened at the temple you should ask them why and hear their explanation. Might be different than what you think--who knows unless you ask?

While never colonized, they have been occupied. They were invaded by Japan in WWII then allied with the Japanese and were ostensibly independent, but they were under it was an occupation. When the Japanese were defeated at the end of the war Thailand was under some sort of control/occupation by the allied powers for a short period. They also lost considerable amounts of their own territory at various times to neighboring countries that were British and French colonies (Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Malaya). Chinese dominate the economy, and have had a great influence on the culture and language as well.

Edited October 7, 2007 by qualtrough

[qualtrough]

I just read the article the OP linked to. It is not by Stickman himself. The author is Italian, and I can sum it up pretty much by saying that the author is miffed that English so widely used here, rather than like back home where everyone understands that Italian, the native tongue, is to be used. The author clearly lacks a sense of humor, taking his teacher's joke that the obscure bits of Thai were there to irritate farangs, and despite his studies has no clue about the role of tones in a tonal language. I could go on, but I think the article speaks more to the author's ignorance than it does about Thais and their language. If I were to retitle that article I would change it to "Why aren't Thais just like Europeans?"

Edited October 7, 2007 by qualtrough

[sbk]

I've had the same experiences as qualtrough. The only place I have encountered Thai people not interested or pleased that I speak Thai is on Khao San Road a few years back. Once in 18 years isn't a trend, IMO.

Most Thai people are amazed and thrilled that I speak Thai and usually quite amused at my southern accent. Can't say that I agree that it is a common attitude that Thai people don't like a foreigner to speak Thai since I have only ever encountered it once in 18 years.

[madjbs]

Sounds like nobody could understand him.

[garro]

It has been my experience that a lot of Thai people prefer not to communicate with somebody in Thai if they are difficult to understand.

Other Thai people are more patient and will happily listen to farang speak in toneless drone and salvage some meaning from it.

The most patient people seem to be wives and GFs or other's (such as teachers) who are paid to listen.

This makes life difficult for Thai learners, but if they are serious eventually you will produce sounds that the Thais don't need to 'think too mutt' about.

[wasabi]

Sounds like nobody could understand him.

Actually you might be right when he gives the noodle example and the person repeats his order in English. That could have been just to be sure they had it right. However when I've spoken to someone in Thai and they reply, not repeat in English I have found that odd since clearly they can understand me. Secondly I've had Thai people say to me, oh Farang speak Thai no good, one of whom was my ex wife LOL. It is entirely possible my experience is too limited and I somehow was running with the wrong, unappreciative crowd but as has been stated on this thread we all have our own experiences and I have had some of the article submitters experiences.

It does seem people have been pleased to say the basics with me, but speaking beyond that I encounter some resistance, yes some of it might come from them not understanding me but as I mentioned I've had other Thai friends with me who have repeated what I said to the other Thai person and the 2nd Thai person will only reply to them even though I'm right there speaking Thai that is understandable.

** I just thought about the above and perhaps my Thai friend is more accustomed to how I am speaking and the 2nd unfamiliar party isn't? So in most of my examples it is a matter of learning to speak more clearly, though some examples are not explainable by that.

None of this makes me a Thailand 'hater' like I said I'm stubborn and it just makes me want to learn more but I do find it peculiar in my personal experience.

Edited October 7, 2007 by wasabi

[mikethevigoman]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

It's an interesting article.

I can see a few other reasons why Thais might switch to English even when a farang is trying to speak Thai:

It's really tedious to speak to someone who is a beginner in a language you are fluent in -- personally, I'll only sit through these kinds of conversations if it's a friend or someone I feel like being nice to. It's so much easier to switch to a language that you both speak -- so I can see how Thais who speak good English would prefer to just speak English to a farang who speaks only basic Thai.

As well, maybe the Thais are just trying to be nice. Where I live, most people speak French. When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English -- because it annoys me that they don't put in a tiny effort to learn 2 or 3 words in the local language. But if they look bashful and say "excusez-moi" and try to stumble forward in a few words of French, I'll switch to English to be helpful.

C girl thanks for your reply and I agree your the possibility of what you say. However I know it goes beyond this. Here's a simple example. I was at a Thai temple, here in the USA with a Thai friend. I ordered fried banana กล้วยทอด and the staff member said can you please speak in English. So I said fried banana. My Thai friend said I had pronounced it fine and she couldn't understand why he said that. Only he knows but he knew I was a student there so he shouldn't have been "shocked" I was speaking Thai. The only thing I could think of was he was somehow protective of the language and didn't want to encourage foreigners to know it. I found it very insulting because I was making an effort to learn the language and the culture and did not at all see it as showing off or anything that merited him to say that.

If he had said that to me i would have shoved the banana, with skin in place !

[meadish_sweetball]

C girl thanks for your reply and I agree your the possibility of what you say. However I know it goes beyond this. Here's a simple example. I was at a Thai temple, here in the USA with a Thai friend. I ordered fried banana กล้วยทอด and the staff member said can you please speak in English. So I said fried banana. My Thai friend said I had pronounced it fine and she couldn't understand why he said that. Only he knows but he knew I was a student there so he shouldn't have been "shocked" I was speaking Thai. The only thing I could think of was he was somehow protective of the language and didn't want to encourage foreigners to know it. I found it very insulting because I was making an effort to learn the language and the culture and did not at all see it as showing off or anything that merited him to say that.

I don't know this guy and maybe he was just the tetchy type or perhaps jealous? Were you with a beautiful Thai woman at the time?.

As for the theory of Thais not wanting foreigners to learn, I can only echo the experience of others. Thai people had enormous patience with me in the beginning of my Thai studies, and now at my intermediate level I mostly communicate in Thai without a problem. In 95% of cases communication with Thais is smoother in Thai than in English, so it makes much more sense to communicate in Thai. When I meet Thais who speak fluent English I will not persist with Thai of course.

I think there is a distinct possibility you met somebody in the US who is themselves proud of having learned English, or possibly a second generation Thai who had an ambivalent relation to Thai culture (i.e. wants to be and identify themselves as American rather than Thai - I have friends like that in Sweden, they only speak Thai with their parents, and otherwise always Swedish).

If so, they may even have taken your attempts at speaking Thai as patronizing. Or maybe they were just stressed and impatient since their English was already fluent and they did not feel like giving language lessons.

[garro]

I do remember one occasion when somebody got upset with me for speaking Thai.

I was staying in a temple with a group of other westerners.

They found her English difficult to understand and kept on asking me to translate.

This was irritating her but I didn't realise, being an insensitive sort.

Eventually she lost her temper (or as near as a Thai gets to this) and told me that she managed to serve farang for years prior to this without needing my services as a translator.

I felt suitably reprimanded and only spoke to her in English after this

[aanon]

i have heard that in some of thailand's more seedy settings you might come across the sentiment ฝรั่งรู้มากไม่ดี (it's not a good thing for a farang to know too much). however, that's merely hearsay and my own experience is, on the contrary, that thais are delighted to be able to have a natural conversation, at natural speed, with the natural colour and humour of their own language, with a farang. occasionally someone will want to stick to english for face-saving or face-making purposes.

all the best.

[Jingthing]

There is alot more to the article than just saying Thais don't want us to speak Thai!

And I think it is excellent. Do you realize just how superficial most everyday conversation is among Thai people? Have you tried to have a serious conversation with a Thai person where you ask questions, ask follow up questions, and try to reach a conclusion? You cannot do this in Thailand unless you are talking to a totally Westernized Thai. This isn't a dig, its an observation. Note the topics the Thais wanted to discuss with our Italian friend, exactly right. Do you like Thai ladies? Do you find Thai food spicy?

If you want to understand this better, I suggest reading this book. I found it amazing and now feel I understand better. It is light book but he references a few serious academic studies about Thai cultural behavior by European anthropologists.

Siam Smiles (Secrets of the Thais) by Hugh Watson

Edited October 7, 2007 by Jingthing

[meadish_sweetball]

I don't know what that book says, but I would just comment it takes longer to get to know Thais than Westerners, and some may simply not be interested in getting to know you on a deeper level.

When Thais persist with superficial conversation, to me it is a sign they do not want to get to know you on a deeper level or feel it is too early to do so.

Some have commented to me they do not understand why farangs talk about personal things with people they do not have a lasting relationship with.

[qualtrough]

Well I tore myself away from the keyboard long enough to run some errands. Wouldn't you know it but I had two back-to-back experiences relevant to this discussion. While I was waiting to get my 5 star chicken in the market a woman in line of about 65 turn and asked me in Thai where I was from. Then she asked what state, and when I told her she mentioned its location. She then mentioned that she had lived in Pittsburgh PA for two years, visited W. VA and DC, and taken a greyhound bus to LA. At some point I said in English, "So you speak English?" She said yes, but showed no interest in demonstrating that fact. So there is one Thai who was quite happy to converse in Thai. I then proceeded to the copy shop. I have been patronizing that establishment for almost 10 years now. The owner was on the phone, and I noticed that she was speaking English. In all that time I never knew she knew English. She had never once in all those years intimated that she knew the language. I told her later that I was unaware that she spoke English, and she answered quite fluently. So there was person number two who doesn't have a problem speaking in Thai with a farang. Of course those are just two examples, but I think it should be clear now that there are many different factors that go into the mix that determines how people are going to behave vis-a-vis Thai and English. I find it very surprising that anyone, Stickman included, could think that article was pretty much spot on.The idea that any significant portion of Thais want to keep the language to themselves is just bizarre.

[mangkorn]

One pretty important detail about the temple story is that it transpired in the USA, according to the post. Just as I, and probably several others on this forum, insist on speaking Thai because we are in Thailand, perhaps that guy was doing the very same thing in the country to where he has relocated. (I am sure that many immigrants to the USA have done just that, over generations, and is why so many of their offspring do not speak the native languages of their parents or grandparents.)

Also agree with canadiangirl and garro that some Thais who can speak English well may be impatient if the interlocutor can't speak their language well, and English is simply the most expedient form of communication in such cases.

But it all really depends on location and environment. Naturally, on Khao San Road there will be many people who would prefer to speak English to farangs, because they've been doing it for so long, and most farangs around there can't speak Thai worth a darn. If one goes to most other areas in both the city and the country, however, most people are relieved if you speak Thai well. Whether or not they actually want to get into a deep conversation is another matter, as meadish has already explained.

Finally, it behooves me to point out what has been avoided thus far here: that many of the Thais referred to as not wanting farangs to know too much, must clearly be bar-girls, because that is the preferred environment of many farang men, and in many cases is their only interaction with Thais. Obviously, some women in that game don't want the farangs to know what they are saying when they speak with their friends. That is a very specific environment which should never be used to measure the whole of Thailand or "Thai people."

As other posters have noted in their own situations, where I live nobody speaks English, and they don't seem to have any interest in doing so, either - which is one big reason why I live where I do.

Just depends where you are, and where you go.

Cheers.

[garro]

I do remember one occasion when somebody got upset with me for speaking Thai.

I was staying in a temple with a group of other westerners.

They found her English difficult to understand and kept on asking me to translate.

This was irritating her but I didn't realise, being an insensitive sort.

Eventually she lost her temper (or as near as a Thai gets to this) and told me that she managed to serve farang for years prior to this without needing my services as a translator.

I felt suitably reprimanded and only spoke to her in English after this

I forgot to say, the upset lady was the Thai cook at the temple.

Thank you DH for pointing out my lapse.

[rak sa_ngop]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

I appreciate that everyone's experience is different, but here is my experience for what it is worth. In my 17 years here since I first arrived 28 years ago I have had a totally opposite experience. I can't recall any Thais who were bothered by my speaking or trying to speak their language, and have had plenty of encouragement. Although the language may be difficult I think Thailand provides as many or more opportunities to learn the language than other countries.

As an aside, I don't agree with your statement about Thailand outsmarting foreigners as being at all true. I don't see how a country that has lost a good share of its territory to foreign countries over the last 110 years, has been invaded and occupied by foreign powers at least twice during that period, has seen its economy almost entirely dominated by fairly recent immigrants (Chinese), that depends on a number of foreigners for many basic and key services, that was bested in battle by a far tinier foreign country (Laos), can be described as being any good at 'outsmarting foreigners'. Quite the opposite if you look at the scorecard.

I tend to agree with the OP that there is a general reluctance these days in many Asian countries to let the foreigners speak the local language but I think this is a recent development as more Asians learn to speak English and want to practise their English.

Certainly 10 years ago in places like Vietnam I thought that the locals loved to help foreigners speak their language, but now when I visit these places they only want to talk to you if you speak in English.

I do not think it so much of a Thai thing as a problem of the success of the English language (and all those bl**dy English schools).

[wasabi]

After considering all the replies on this thread my opinion has shifted. I now feel most of the reluctance I've encountered has been due to lack of me speaking clearly and at times speaking with a small sub section of Thais who wish to have secrets and this in no way is reflective of the country as a whole. My ex wife was not a bar girl but yes some of the people who said that to me were in the bar industry and thinking about it further it does make sense that that industry in particular would like to conceal their feelings and motivations. I did go to Kon Kaen once and I must say I found everyone there pleased I spoke Thai so I already was aware this wasn't all Thai's just some.

Overall I feel glad that my opinion is most likely jaundiced by my limited experience in Thailand and look forward to meeting more who appreciate my efforts. On another note the author's comment about Thai's not wanting to have deep conversations, the same can be said for many of the people I meet here in the USA, at least they don't want to talk about what I want to, or they want to show off their intellectual wit and the conversation takes lofty tangents, talking above the subject which ultimately becomes talking about oneself. There's not many here I feel I can have a real and natural conversation with either so that too comes down to who you roll with.

It's interesting isn't it, how our experiences form stereotypes and then our stereotypes increase the likelihood of more such experiences.

Edited October 7, 2007 by wasabi

[bulmercke]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2007/reader3948.htm

I too have encountered much of the reluctance and refusal from other Thai's as I've tried to learn the language. Being very stubborn this has only made me want to learn it more just to prove I can against all odds. While one could argue the writer is being too harsh and there are many Thai's happy you know Thai, I personally have met more who are not and after getting past the initial oh you speak Thai? Geng maak. A sense of annoyance from them for having to talk to me further in Thai, if I want to go past Sabadi mai gin kao ru yang? It is peculiar and unique in my experience of a foreign language and a country's treatment of it's own language in regard to foreigners who wish to speak the language. The author mentions how it seems odd to many to see two Farangs speaking Thai to each other and I've heard plenty of Farangs reinforce and ridicule farangs who chose to speak Thai to each other rather than English or whatever their native language is, though you'd never see this in most other countries if two foreigners were speaking the native language. But then again Thailand has been outsmarting foreigners for generations, perhaps this is one of the ways how?

I could see this devolving into a flaming match and I don't mean it that way. In spite of this like the author of the article I very much appreciate Thailand and this won't stop me from going there and trying to learn but I thought he captured many of the frustrations I've had myself.

It's an interesting article.

I can see a few other reasons why Thais might switch to English even when a farang is trying to speak Thai:

It's really tedious to speak to someone who is a beginner in a language you are fluent in -- personally, I'll only sit through these kinds of conversations if it's a friend or someone I feel like being nice to. It's so much easier to switch to a language that you both speak -- so I can see how Thais who speak good English would prefer to just speak English to a farang who speaks only basic Thai.

As well, maybe the Thais are just trying to be nice. Where I live, most people speak French. When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English -- because it annoys me that they don't put in a tiny effort to learn 2 or 3 words in the local language. But if they look bashful and say "excusez-moi" and try to stumble forward in a few words of French, I'll switch to English to be helpful.

You sound like a real bore!

I have lived in Thailand for fourteen years and yesterday whilst I was travelling to Rama 2 Road the taxi driver tried to engage me in some kind of banal conversation. I was polite and I made the effort to communicate with this man - even though - at the time I was very tired and it was the last thing I wanted to do!

"When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English" - racist?

Edited October 7, 2007 by bulmercke

[meadish_sweetball]

I have lived in Thailand for fourteen years and yesterday whilst I was travelling to Rama 2 Road the taxi driver tried to engage me in some kind of banal conversation. I was polite and I made the effort to communicate with this man - even though - at the time I was very tired and it was the last thing I wanted to do!

That's nice of you. I probably would have done the same. Do you think it is obligatory though?

"When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English" - racist?

You must have a definition of 'racist' that differs from the one I have. I don't see that behaviour as based on 'race'.

[TheChiefJustice]

Have you tried to have a serious conversation with a Thai person where you ask questions, ask follow up questions, and try to reach a conclusion? You cannot do this in Thailand unless you are talking to a totally Westernized Thai.

What an absolute load of rubbish. How very dare you. Cleary, your experience with Thai people is limited in the extreme. I am completely horrified by your completely careless and condescending generalisations about Thai people.

[Jingthing]

Have you tried to have a serious conversation with a Thai person where you ask questions, ask follow up questions, and try to reach a conclusion? You cannot do this in Thailand unless you are talking to a totally Westernized Thai.

What an absolute load of rubbish. How very dare you. Cleary, your experience with Thai people is limited in the extreme. I am completely horrified by your completely careless and condescending generalisations about Thai people.

Specious personal attacks aside ...

Read the book I cited which cites academic studies to back up these cultural observations before you comment. Or have you gone native and don't read books?

Do you seriously think this culture is the same as western culture? Thai people THINK differently than we do because they are programmed that way by their education and culture. Not saying it is bad or good, just different. It is bad if you go around thinking the Thai people you meet have the same cultural wiring you do; that is a recipe for misunderstandings. conflicts, and stress.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Jingthing

[aanon]

Have you tried to have a serious conversation with a Thai person where you ask questions, ask follow up questions, and try to reach a conclusion? You cannot do this in Thailand unless you are talking to a totally Westernized Thai.

Read the book I cited which cites academic studies to back up these cultural observations before you comment. Or have you gone native and don't read books?

jingthing, my answer to your questions/comments above are 1) yes and 2) rubbish.

one does not read to read a book you have read to make a response.

all the best.

[Jingthing]

Have you tried to have a serious conversation with a Thai person where you ask questions, ask follow up questions, and try to reach a conclusion? You cannot do this in Thailand unless you are talking to a totally Westernized Thai.

Read the book I cited which cites academic studies to back up these cultural observations before you comment. Or have you gone native and don't read books?

jingthing, my answer to your questions/comments above are 1) yes and 2) rubbish.

one does not read to read a book you have read to make a response.

all the best.

Lazy answer. Gone native.

[meadish_sweetball]

Not disparaging that there are some broader cultural differences, Jingthing, but is it possible that the book you have read is not the final authority on whether it is impossible to meet a non-Westernized Thai that likes to have a meaningful conversation or not?

There's quite a few people here who disagree with your bold blanket statement. If you go back and look at how you phrased that post, can you see why?