Usufruct

[crewcut]

I am in the process of talking with some of TV's sponsers about getting an usufruct.

Has anyone anything good or bad to say regarding usufructs?

CC.

[kurtgruen]

I am in the process of talking with some of TV's sponsers about getting an usufruct.

Has anyone anything good or bad to say regarding usufructs?

CC.

I've been looking into Usufructs myself. A friend of mine had one done by Sunbelt Asia, if I remember right and he is very happy.

However, I would look into the legality of a Usufruct, if you are doing it with a Thai wife. From what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong), a Thai wife of a foreign husband is not allowed to buy property with his money. She has to be able to show proof that it is really her money, that the land was purchased with. If in fact you do a Usufruct with a Thai wife, it can later be questioned by the government, as I understand it.

I would love to get more info on this subject, too.

[Sunbelt Asia]

I am in the process of talking with some of TV's sponsers about getting an usufruct.

Has anyone anything good or bad to say regarding usufructs?

CC.

I've been looking into Usufructs myself. A friend of mine had one done by Sunbelt Asia, if I remember right and he is very happy.

However, I would look into the legality of a Usufruct, if you are doing it with a Thai wife. From what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong), a Thai wife of a foreign husband is not allowed to buy property with his money. She has to be able to show proof that it is really her money, that the land was purchased with. If in fact you do a Usufruct with a Thai wife, it can later be questioned by the government, as I understand it.

I would love to get more info on this subject, too.

A usufruct does not give ownership rights; the land would still be in the owners name. What a usufruct does do… allows a servitude to be registered at the land Dept, (in this case) that the wife has given the husband the right to be the “manager’ of the land. That means he can register a lease to a third party or live there on the land.

The odds are very remote, the government would ever question a declaration that has been given after the land has been registered, because of a usufruct being registered later to him.

The money she earned to buy the land could have been a gift, earned by doing a research project for her husband, whatever the case it is. The husband states in the declaration " I have no rights to this money or land that she will buy with these funds; it’s my wife’s funds to do what she wants." The usufruct does not give ownership rights of the land, it only gives her husband management rights on the land. This is an important distinction between being a owner and manager.

She also should file a supporting statement with the usufruct why she has decided to grant her husband a usufruct and she understands he will be the manager but she still and will always be the owner of the land unless she transfers it.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Pink Mist]

what would an approximate cost be ?

[kurtgruen]

The odds are very remote, the government would ever question a declaration that has been given after the land has been registered, because of a usufruct being registered later to him.

The money she earned to buy the land could have been a gift, earned by doing a research project for her husband, whatever the case it is. The husband states in the declaration I have no rights to this money or land that she will buy with these funds; it’s my wife’s funds to do what she wants.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

One more question...

I have heard different stories about how much land a Thai wife of a Farang can own? Is there a limit to how much land my wife can own, if she is legally married to me? Is there a limit to the amount of Chanots included in a Usufruct? I noticed that when you guys did Werner's, the guy I recommmended to you, he had two properties listed on his usufruct.

Thanks

[Sunbelt Asia]

what would an approximate cost be ?

Depends on the land office on the government fee. We have done some usufructs with government fees around 100 Baht. Some land offices wanted a higher tax of up to 15K

Our professional fee on drafting the usufruct is 9,500 Baht. For registration at the Land Dept its 8,500 Baht.

Is there a limit to how much land my wife can own, if she is legally married to me?

No limit

Is there a limit to the amount of Chanots included in a Usufruct?

No limit as well.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Pink Mist]

can we organise it in BKK or do you have a facility to do it in Khonkaen

[kurtgruen]

Is there a limit to how much land my wife can own, if she is legally married to me?

No limit

Is there a limit to the amount of Chanots included in a Usufruct?

No limit as well.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks for the info, that is great to hear, since my wife has aquired quite a bit of property over the past two years.

Is it better to wait a few months to do a Usufruct, after your wife purchases the land, before registering a Usufruct at the land office? A friend of mine told me, that they don't like to see it done right away, buy a Thai wife, who buys it and then wants to give her husband a Usufruct at the same time?

Thanks

Kurt

[kurtgruen]

A friend of mine told me, that they don't like to see it done right away, buy a Thai wife, who buys it and then wants to give her husband a Usufruct at the same time?

Thanks

Kurt

I meant to say "by" a Thai Wife not "buy" LOL. (That topic would belong in another forum)

[batami]

as i understand the use of usufruct, you also need to add another couple of documents - the person owning the land should have a will which specifies to whom the land passes to on their death and that the usufruct will be honored and the usufruct is willed to the survuor; second there is an agreement between the person who is the registered owner and yourself regarding the use of the land and the disposal of the land, buildings, usufruct if you want to sell.

I think this was the gist of what my attorney told me

PM me if you want more info and, if you are in Chiang MAi or the north, i will pass you the name of someone to talk to.

[Sunbelt Asia]

can we organise it in BKK or do you have a facility to do it in Khonkaen

We would do the draft in BKk and then fly to Khon kaen to register the usufruct.

Is it better to wait a few months to do a Usufruct, after your wife purchases the land, before registering a Usufruct at the land office? A friend of mine told me, that they don't like to see it done right away, buy a Thai wife, who buys it and then wants to give her husband a Usufruct at the same time?

would nver wait for two months. God forbid the owner of the land dies in the meantime. Max would be one week between purchase and usufruct but with many land offices its no problem to do it at the same time.

as i understand the use of usufruct, you also need to add another couple of documents - the person owning the land should have a will which specifies to whom the land passes to on their death and that the usufruct will be honored and the usufruct is willed to the survuor;

The usufruct is honored if the land owner dies no matter if a will has been drafted or has not been. However we do reco a will to be drafted as a foreign husband can own up to one rai if its been willed to him. ( subject to government approval)

second there is an agreement between the person who is the registered owner and yourself regarding the use of the land and the disposal of the land, buildings, usufruct if you want to sell.

This can also be in the usufruct agreement about any possible transfer.

Please note if you build a building. This building can be registered in your name and you can transfer it to whoever you want. You also are the property manager so you can issue a lease to the new owner of the building.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[kurtgruen]

Is it better to wait a few months to do a Usufruct, after your wife purchases the land, before registering a Usufruct at the land office? A friend of mine told me, that they don't like to see it done right away, by a Thai wife, who buys it and then wants to give her husband a Usufruct at the same time?

would nver wait for two months. God forbid the owner of the land dies in the meantime. Max would be one week between purchase and usufruct but with many land offices its no problem to do it at the same time.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If there is no will and we are legally married, (she has a child and two sisters and her parents, but has no will at the moment) wouldn't I be automatically become the one who inherits everything, even though as a foreigner, I might have to sell it or dispose of it soon after? Is it really that crutial, that we do the Usufruct ASAP, if we don't plan on improving the land at the moment?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Is it better to wait a few months to do a Usufruct, after your wife purchases the land, before registering a Usufruct at the land office? A friend of mine told me, that they don't like to see it done right away, by a Thai wife, who buys it and then wants to give her husband a Usufruct at the same time?

would nver wait for two months. God forbid the owner of the land dies in the meantime. Max would be one week between purchase and usufruct but with many land offices its no problem to do it at the same time.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

If there is no will and we are legally married, (she has a child and two sisters and her parents, but has no will at the moment) wouldn't I be automatically become the one who inherits everything, even though as a foreigner, I might have to sell it or dispose of it soon after? Is it really that crutial, that we do the Usufruct ASAP, if we don't plan on improving the land at the moment?

With no will you would share with the child and each parent. If both parents are living, you would then get 25% of the estate. With the usufruct, at least you wouldn't get kicked off the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[dereklev]

what would an approximate cost be ?

Depends on the land office on the government fee. We have done some usufructs with government fees around 100 Baht. Some land offices wanted a higher tax of up to 15K

Our professional fee on drafting the usufruct is 9,500 Baht. For registration at the Land Dept its 8,500 Baht.

I don't understand this huge variance in government fees.

Is there not a set fee for registration at the Amphur??

Earlier this year I had 3 Usufructs arranged by a lawyer in Korat (Korat Lawyers) and if I remember correctly the fees at the Amphur were 100 baht per Chanoot.

Tea money was a £10 note and my wife got a lecture on the evils of giving a farang rights on land in Thailand...

My wife made a will at the same time leaving everything to our son. The lawyer felt this was an essental part of the process.

[kurtgruen]

With no will you would share with the child and each parent. If both parents are living, you would then get 25% of the estate. With the usufruct, at least you wouldn't get kicked off the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thank you very much for all the information. Now I have a much clearer picture. Yes, I totally agree with you, too.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Is there not a set fee for registration at the Amphur??

In Thailand some follow the standard regulations and some Land offices make the laws!

my wife got a lecture on the evils of giving a farang rights on land in Thailand...

This has happen to our clients as well even to telling the wife, " he will have a Mia Noi moved in with him and you won't be able to do anything about it. The new wife and him then will laugh how stupid you were in trusting him." Thank God, we had women lawyers that were representing the wife and explain this could happen but do you really think, knowing your husband, he would ever do this?

www.subeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

With no will you would share with the child and each parent. If both parents are living, you would then get 25% of the estate. With the usufruct, at least you wouldn't get kicked off the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thank you very much for all the information. Now I have a much clearer picture. Yes, I totally agree with you, too.

You are welcome. Glad to help clear this up for you.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[kurtgruen]

With no will you would share with the child and each parent. If both parents are living, you would then get 25% of the estate. With the usufruct, at least you wouldn't get kicked off the land.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thank you very much for all the information. Now I have a much clearer picture. Yes, I totally agree with you, too.

You are welcome. Glad to help clear this up for you.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks.

Can I ask you one more question? My wife and I seen a buddies Usufruct. (A guy I recommended to you) and in the support letter, it mentions them as "fiancee", rather than husband and wife. Is that necessary, or is it fine to just say my loving husband, if you are legally married? (Since you already said that now a Thai wife can own as much property as she wants)

My wife was asking me this question, because she is worried that she might do it wrong and get in trouble.

Thanks again

[Sunbelt Asia]

Thanks.

Can I ask you one more question? My wife and I seen a buddies Usufruct. (A guy I recommended to you) and in the support letter, it mentions them as "fiancee", rather than husband and wife. Is that necessary, or is it fine to just say my loving husband, if you are legally married? (Since you already said that now a Thai wife can own as much property as she wants)

My wife was asking me this question, because she is worried that she might do it wrong and get in trouble.

Thanks again

Either way is fine depending if its a husband or fiancee.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[ThaiLawOnline]

We do usufructs in Khon Kaen quite often. Check on our website. If Sunbelt has to fly... we don't!

We do it for the same price, more or less.

I've never seen a 15K government fee for a usufruct in any land department in Isaan.

But some are reticent because they don't know exactly what it is.

Last week, we register one 50km for Korat and it was the only the second one in the whole district.

First time the lady was doing one over there...

Don't wait 2 months after buying land to do it. I've seen girlfriend selling the land much faster than that!

Sebastian

www.isaanlawyers.com

[kurtgruen]

Either way is fine depending if its a husband or fiancee.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks. That's great. We appreciate the information.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Either way is fine depending if its a husband or fiancee.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

There might be one problem that wasn't mentionned if you are legally married. It's article 1469 of the Thai civil Code. It says that all contracts made between spouses while married can be cancelled except if they affect third parties.

If you are not married. No problem. A usufruct is a quite safe and good solution. For few thousand baht, it will probably bring you peace of mind. Another benefit is if your wife or girlfriend dies, you can still stay, live or lease the house and land until the rest of your life.

If you are married, you can also do a usufruct and register it. Thai lawyers don't agree if 1469 applies or not,if the usufruct can be cancel or not. Actually, it would be the same for a lease between spouses..."All contracts". In reality, I've never seen 1469 used by someone...but it's there.

When you register a contract at the land department, it's called to "publicize" it. Or, publicity of a contract affects third parties. That's the argument to say that 1469 doesn't apply. Other say that 1469 doesn't apply because if the contract is done for free, it's a gift. But under Thai law, a gift is a contract. Under some jurisdiction, a gift is a "gratuitous unilateral act" that can't be compared with a contract that has normally synallagmatic. I haven't seen a Thai lawyer with a clear explication on 1469 or a decision on the matter. But married or not, I believe that usufructs are a good LEGAL protection.

Recently, a client cancelled the registration of a lease agreement because they wanted to sell the house and the girlfriend convinced the client it wouldn't look nice to sell a house with a right attached to it. He cancelled it. The next day, she borrowed 500 000 baht without telling him with a guarantee on the house. He is in trouble now...

Sebastian.

[Bomonster]

what would an approximate cost be ?

Depends on the land office on the government fee. We have done some usufructs with government fees around 100 Baht. Some land offices wanted a higher tax of up to 15K

Our professional fee on drafting the usufruct is 9,500 Baht. For registration at the Land Dept its 8,500 Baht.

Is there a limit to how much land my wife can own, if she is legally married to me?

No limit

Is there a limit to the amount of Chanots included in a Usufruct?

i have been informed that the land offices do not do a usufruct now? but something better added to the chanoot

No limit as well.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com