Frozen Uk Pensions

[4.real]

RE opting out of paying NI .

The problem was that the very clever british governments deluded people into believing they were paying far less in contributions than they actually were.

The compulsory subscriptions were divided into 'employees contributions' and EMPLOYERS contributions'

If you opted out I understood that you could NOT take the 'employers contributions' with you to a private insurer.

My argument is..ALL contributions are paid/earned by the EMPLOYEE.

Any employer would add the cost of 'contributions 'when assessing what salary he would pay to any worker..

Also bearing in mind that those of us nearing retirement age worked in an industrial Britain where most workers were employees of a large industry.

I have also learned that [because I also have a private pension] that although I live abroad I will be taxed on my total pension figure because the pensions are PAID from England.

[Slip]

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but as I remember I 'contracted out of Serps' as everyone was talking about at the time. The payments were paid to some private finance company. I have no idea what has happened to that money. I'm sure I'll never see it again. Of course it was all a long time ago but I reckon there's a lot of UK expats my age in the same situation.

And just to fend off the trolly 'you're an idiot' comments, I know, but I was only young.

[mrtoad]

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but as I remember I 'contracted out of Serps' as everyone was talking about at the time. The payments were paid to some private finance company. I have no idea what has happened to that money. I'm sure I'll never see it again. Of course it was all a long time ago but I reckon there's a lot of UK expats my age in the same situation.

And just to fend off the trolly 'you're an idiot' comments, I know, but I was only young.

My understanding is that you may be able to claim some form of compensation for a mis sold pension. I know that my ex-wife received something as she was told to opt out.

Probably woth contacting the ombudsman.

[Slip]

Thanks for that Mr Toad.

[davidkas]

Any one heard any more about this?

E-Petitions

Sign a petition

This petition is now closed, as its deadline has passed.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Allow compatability of pension payment of UK pensioners abroad and at home. More details

Submitted by Neil Simpson – Deadline to sign up by: 02 February 2008 – Signatures: 221

Hi All, There is a new petion, here is the link to the Goverments own website where you can make electronic petitions, this one is to give expat pensioners the same increase in state pension as those living in the UK.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/pension-robbery/

Please sign up and pass the word to anyone you might know, in any country, any age who might/has retired overseas. Also try friends and family who might support our cause

Regards David

[billd766]

Any one heard any more about this?

E-Petitions

Sign a petition

This petition is now closed, as its deadline has passed.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Allow compatability of pension payment of UK pensioners abroad and at home. More details

Submitted by Neil Simpson – Deadline to sign up by: 02 February 2008 – Signatures: 221

Hi All, There is a new petion, here is the link to the Goverments own website where you can make electronic petitions, this one is to give expat pensioners the same increase in state pension as those living in the UK.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/pension-robbery/

Please sign up and pass the word to anyone you might know, in any country, any age who might/has retired overseas. Also try friends and family who might support our cause

Regards David

I just tried and there is no country of choice called Thailand and I have no postal address in the UK so how can i vote?

[reallyok]

Any one heard any more about this?

E-Petitions

Sign a petition

This petition is now closed, as its deadline has passed.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Allow compatability of pension payment of UK pensioners abroad and at home. More details

Submitted by Neil Simpson – Deadline to sign up by: 02 February 2008 – Signatures: 221

Hi All, There is a new petion, here is the link to the Goverments own website where you can make electronic petitions, this one is to give expat pensioners the same increase in state pension as those living in the UK.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/pension-robbery/

Please sign up and pass the word to anyone you might know, in any country, any age who might/has retired overseas. Also try friends and family who might support our cause

Regards David

I just tried and there is no country of choice called Thailand and I have no postal address in the UK so how can i vote?

So its now 2010 so i think that we should have a petition every year. Will someone in the "know" please start another and ask just how the UK government have managed to discriminate amongst countries of choice ?

[thaimate]

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but as I remember I 'contracted out of Serps' as everyone was talking about at the time. The payments were paid to some private finance company. I have no idea what has happened to that money. I'm sure I'll never see it again. Of course it was all a long time ago but I reckon there's a lot of UK expats my age in the same situation.

And just to fend off the trolly 'you're an idiot' comments, I know, but I was only young.

i also contracted out of serps some 30 years ago for about 4 years,the company that took the money paid me a lump sum of 1000 pounds or so and now pay me about 63 pounds a month ,this started at 63 ,as i opted back in on leaving my company i am just about to get my pension and get serps from the govt.

[dumball]

I did not notice it being mentioned here , you can opt out to receive your pension 5 years later and be paid a 50%bonus every month , that is , get a pension of 150% of what would normally be due at 65 . Being a bit of a tight wad who likes all of the extras I can get , I opted for this , I figure to keep in good health and collect until at least 100 .

[Penkoprod]

So its now 2010 so i think that we should have a petition every year. Will someone in the "know" please start another and ask just how the UK government have managed to discriminate amongst countries of choice ?

Unfortunatly, this idea is a little bit l*ke pissing against the wind.

A noble cause, a worthy cause, but one that can NEVER be won by petition after petition.

Its so deeply entrenched in the minds of those in power that it doesnt matter how many petitions are started..... they dont need to listen.

The "last chance saloon" that is the European Court of Human Rights will be announcing its FINAL decision on the matter in April. That decision wont make very good reading for people who (in the minds of those that make the rules) have "turned their backs on the Fatherland"

Heres a couple of quotes from some of those people:

Annette Carson, one of 13 expatriate pensioners going to court, moved to South Africa in 1989 and continued to make national insurance contributions in the UK until she retired in 2000. Her pension is frozen at £67.50 a week.

Carson contested the government's refusal to index-link pensions in the British courts in 2002, claiming discrimination. The case was rejected, and an appeal to the court of appeal in 2003 also failed. She was also unsuccessful in an appeal to the House of Lords in 2005.

At the time, Lord Hoffman, one of a majority finding against Carson's argument, said: "She was under no obligation to move to South Africa. She did so voluntarily and no doubt for good reasons. But in doing so, she put herself outside the primary scope and purpose of the UK social security system."

And

A spokesman at the Department of Work and Pensions today echoed Hoffman's views. He said the government was concentrating on the needs of pensioners living in the UK.

"It would cost around £0.5bn a year to uprate the pension for people in this situation and this cost would rise exponentially as people continue to live for longer," he said. "But it's not just the money, it's the principle. These people made a conscious choice to go abroad, and a conscious choice to go to a particular country."

Looks like ......Game over, case closed, thank you and goodnight....sad to say. No more appeals/court cases

People might stand a better chance lobbying the THAI government to make some form of reciprocal arrangement, for all the good THAT would do, than to waste energy trying to overturn this ruling.

Those of us that have spent our adult lives paying into a system, under the impression that the system would "be there for us" when its our turn can rightfully feel cheated, and conned.

That, unfortunatly, is as much as we can expect. Leaves a sour taste, huh?

[PattayaParent]

^But that's only part of the government side.

The plaintiff side makes compelling reading and blows all the UK government arguments out of the water.

[Ricardo]

If you're self-employed you're not entitles to sickness benefit (and other benefits I think) which is why Class 2 contributions are lower.

You are correct there. Basically just the pension, but it is irrelevant for those of us living in Thailand. The British government would give us nothing if they could get away with it!

Coincidentally, that's roughly the same sum that I plan to pay to them, in Income-Tax/CGT/NI-Contributions/Council-Tax/VAT/Television-License/Car-Tax/Petrol-Tax etc., for the remainder of my life. Unfortunately cannot avoid Airport-Tax when visiting my old Mum & friends back in the UK.

Nevertheless I have paid my 30 years' contributions, actually 31 years due to a miscalculation on their part, and would have liked to have been treated similarly to all my fellow-countrymen who chose to stay 'home'. If you can still call 'home', a place which has lost much of the sense of fairness and decency, which I remember and miss from the old days.

I guess there must be a dire shortage of funds, to support corrupt-MPs and fat-cat bankers, in the style to which they have become accustomed to awarding themselves !

[Penkoprod]

^But that's only part of the government side.

The plaintiff side makes compelling reading and blows all the UK government arguments out of the water.

It's like i said before, the government side dont need to listen.....because the "plaintiff side" as you call it dont matter (as far as the powers that be are concerned, that is)

Its like they are saying...no one forced the people out, and you might be suprised at the amount of people. both in UK and Europe that AGREE with the stance of the "government side"

[4.real]

Unfortunately it was thrown out the first time by the european court because the court was under the impression that it was a NON CONTRIBUTORY pension..In other words we had NOT paid anything towards it..

This has now been rectified and you can see our lawyer presenting his case online.

The governments main argument this time appeared to be 'We cannot afford to pay the increase'.

This is laughable and if that is the best they came up with we will win.

The other thing most of you do not realise is that BOTH..employees contributions AND employers contributions are EARNED by the employee

Any union demanding a pay increase would have this figure shown as employers outgoings and would detract fr0m the final agreement.

Plus any employer would add this figure to the cost of employment..

the very clever british government [the permanent secretaries] have bamboozled you for decades into believing you have only contributed half the sum that you actually have contributed.

^But that's only part of the government side.

The plaintiff side makes compelling reading and blows all the UK government arguments out of the water.

It's like i said before, the government side dont need to listen.....because the "plaintiff side" as you call it dont matter (as far as the powers that be are concerned, that is)

Its like they are saying...no one forced the people out, and you might be suprised at the amount of people. both in UK and Europe that AGREE with the stance of the "government side"

[Penkoprod]

Unfortunately it was thrown out the first time by the european court because the court was under the impression that it was a NON CONTRIBUTORY pension..In other words we had NOT paid anything towards it..

This has now been rectified and you can see our lawyer presenting his case online.

The governments main argument this time appeared to be 'We cannot afford to pay the increase'.

This is laughable and if that is the best they came up with we will win.

The other thing most of you do not realise is that BOTH..employees contributions AND employers contributions are EARNED by the employee

Any union demanding a pay increase would have this figure shown as employers outgoings and would detract fr0m the final agreement.

Plus any employer would add this figure to the cost of employment..

the very clever british government [the permanent secretaries] have bamboozled you for decades into believing you have only contributed half the sum that you actually have contributed.

I agree 100% with what you say in the last part of your post,and said much the same in my own earlier post. But think you might be a little "off beam" with what you say in the first part.

Are you sure you are not making the age old mistake of confusing CONTRIBUTORY with RESIDENCY?

They are not saying (YET !!!!) that we get NO pension, Just that, because one chooses to take up residence in a country thats not got a recipricol agreement, or is a member of The EEC (and i think Switzerland is included in that too) one is disqualified from any INCREASES to that pension.

I contributed to a lot more than just a pension, through my NI contributions, and other direct taxes, before ill health caused me to curtail those activities. But i know i cant/wont be able to claim the benefits of them when i move to Thailand. Things like Incapacity Benefit, DLA and the like. Jobseekers Allowance, Winter Heating Allowance, Pension Credits etc, etc. Even parts of the much maligned NHS is off limits to us "traitors" that either left the Fatherland, or are planning to. Are you saying we should be able to? Can you see much chance of that happening? Neither can i. In short....whats the difference between those other contributory benefits i mentioned, and yearly pension increases?

We will be finding out around April this year, though. I for one wont be holding my breath in anticipation of a victory. But i am MORE than willing to be proven wrong, come the time

Penkoprod

[PattayaParent]

^But that's only part of the government side.

The plaintiff side makes compelling reading and blows all the UK government arguments out of the water.

It's like i said before, the government side dont need to listen.....because the "plaintiff side" as you call it dont matter (as far as the powers that be are concerned, that is)

Its like they are saying...no one forced the people out, and you might be suprised at the amount of people. both in UK and Europe that AGREE with the stance of the "government side"

Maybe the UK government don't need to listen, but the Court does, and the UK government needs to listen to the ruling of the Court.

[Penkoprod]

Don't think you can say "turned their backs on the father land", after spending their working life for it, perhaps fighting for it and paying their dues. and raising a family FOR the father land. Retirement is your end of life holiday, no work. Where you want to put your feet up is ones own business. When you have a holiday do you think of the father land and spend your dosh there, no you holiday where you want.

I'm not the one thats saying it though

All i did was quote others that ARE saying it..people in power that are making these decisions. You only have to read between the lines. PAYING ones' dues is one thing. Being entitled to anything because of those dues having been paid by you is another, totally seperate issue, in my experience..... and people are being naive thinking otherwise.

Let me repaste them here

At the time, Lord Hoffman, one of a majority finding against Carson's argument, said: "She was under no obligation to move to South Africa. She did so voluntarily and no doubt for good reasons. But in doing so, she put herself outside the primary scope and purpose of the UK social security system."

And

A spokesman at the Department of Work and Pensions today echoed Hoffman's views. He said the government was concentrating on the needs of pensioners living in the UK.

"It would cost around £0.5bn a year to uprate the pension for people in this situation and this cost would rise exponentially as people continue to live for longer," he said. "But it's not just the money, it's the principle. These people made a conscious choice to go abroad, and a conscious choice to go to a particular country."

We can all have, and express our views as to what we think retirement SHOULD be, and we can shout it out until we are blue in the face, but its more a case of convincing those that hold the purse strings to agree with those views thats going to prove impossible, i'm afraid.

Dont get me wrong...i really want to be proven wrong on this, but i cant see me being so, unfortunatly. Only time will tell. Come the Spring and the "final" decision will be announced.

Penkoprod