Uk Pension For Brits Married To Thai Women

[dressedingreen]

I was reading, in the Pattaya forum, about the UK government's decision to freeze pensions for expats from the day they leave the UK. I'd been aware of this for some time, and I understand it goes to the ECHR in a month or so. Hopefully, they'll rule in favour of the complainants. It IS, IMO, grossly unfair to freeze payments at the old rate just because someone has chosen to live their dotage out abroad. But ... and here's what I want to get some feedback on ... does anyone have experience of the situation for UK expats who marry Thai women? Does the UK pension go up any to take account of the marriage, even though it has taken place outside the UK? Does the spouse of a UK expat continue to get any kind of pension after the expat has 'popped their cloggs'? I'm not of pensionable age ... yet. 10 years to go.

Any feedback will be welcome.

DIG

[duceahearts]

Hi, I read something about this a little while ago so I found the threads, I tried to add a link to the previous threads but I don't know how to do that, anyway these might help. . .

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140813

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140448

...Can anybody tell me in simple english how to add a link to another thread

[sriracha john]

I was reading, in the Pattaya forum, about the UK government's decision to freeze pensions for expats from the day they leave the UK. I'd been aware of this for some time, and I understand it goes to the ECHR in a month or so. Hopefully, they'll rule in favour of the complainants. It IS, IMO, grossly unfair to freeze payments at the old rate just because someone has chosen to live their dotage out abroad.

I've known an elderly British citizen residing in Thailand for years and for years he's told me his pension was frozen at some rate going back to the 1980's when he first came over here and that he's never received an increase.

Are you saying that this is not the case and that the British government is only now contemplating making this stipulation on its retired overseas citizens? Personally, not being British, I don't know... and he's certainly not above being confused about something... particularly when it involves governmental bureaucracy.

For duceahearts:

Not sure why your first link regarding the marriage issue didn't dynamically link, but here it is:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140813

[xyborg]

Sure I read something recently saying if you have paid in 30 years worth of National Insurance contributions soon you will get a full uk pension when you retire and also so will your Thai wife too!!

[xyborg]

Its been frozen from the day you leave for a long time, whats the reasoning behind this?? or is it just a money saving ploy?

[crowbait]

I know this happens with the UK state pension but not, I think, with many occupational pensions.

I know of several ex coppers who live abroad (outside the EC) who get the annual cost of living increase to their superannuation.

Likewise a couple of doctors.

Many final salary pensions have cost-of-living increases and (where these can be paid abroad) I don't think they are penalised.

It's different with the state pension, they eventually get to know if you're an ex-pat, ordinary occupational pensions don't..........unless you tell them.

[Mobi]

I was reading, in the Pattaya forum, about the UK government's decision to freeze pensions for expats from the day they leave the UK. I'd been aware of this for some time, and I understand it goes to the ECHR in a month or so. Hopefully, they'll rule in favour of the complainants. It IS, IMO, grossly unfair to freeze payments at the old rate just because someone has chosen to live their dotage out abroad.

I've known an elderly British citizen residing in Thailand for years and for years he's told me his pension was frozen at some rate going back to the 1980's when he first came over here and that he's never received an increase.

Are you saying that this is not the case and that the British government is only now contemplating making this stipulation on its retired overseas citizens? Personally, not being British, I don't know... and he's certainly not above being confused about something... particularly when it involves governmental bureaucracy.

For duceahearts:

Not sure why your first link regarding the marriage issue didn't dynamically link, but here it is:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140813

SJ There's been loads of thread on this topic.

The situation is that if UK pensioners move permanently overseas, it will depend which country they move as to whether their pension will be frozen. This has always been the case and nothing new has happened.

I think the OP is confused by ongoing appeals by various groups to get this ruling overturned. Some South African residents (whose pensions are also frozen) took their case to the high courts, and then the House of Lords where their appeals were rejected. I think they are now trying in the European court to get the decision overturned. Also there is Thailand based group that has a web site and is trying to get some sort of petition together to lobby the UK government.

As you might have guessed, Thailand is another country where pensioners have their pensioners frozen, yet perversely, pensioners in the USA do get the annual increases.

[sriracha john]

I was reading, in the Pattaya forum, about the UK government's decision to freeze pensions for expats from the day they leave the UK. I'd been aware of this for some time, and I understand it goes to the ECHR in a month or so. Hopefully, they'll rule in favour of the complainants. It IS, IMO, grossly unfair to freeze payments at the old rate just because someone has chosen to live their dotage out abroad.

I've known an elderly British citizen residing in Thailand for years and for years he's told me his pension was frozen at some rate going back to the 1980's when he first came over here and that he's never received an increase.

Are you saying that this is not the case and that the British government is only now contemplating making this stipulation on its retired overseas citizens? Personally, not being British, I don't know... and he's certainly not above being confused about something... particularly when it involves governmental bureaucracy.

SJ There's been loads of thread on this topic.

The situation is that if UK pensioners move permanently overseas, it will depend which country they move as to whether their pension will be frozen. This has always been the case and nothing new has happened.

I think the OP is confused by ongoing appeals by various groups to get this ruling overturned. Some South African residents (whose pensions are also frozen) took their case to the high courts, and then the House of Lords where their appeals were rejected. I think they are now trying in the European court to get the decision overturned. Also there is Thailand based group that has a web site and is trying to get some sort of petition together to lobby the UK government.

As you might have guessed, Thailand is another country where pensioners have their pensioners frozen, yet perversely, pensioners in the USA do get the annual increases.

Thanks for the clarification, Mobi. I wasn't sure about the OP as it seemed to differ from what I had understood from what this nice old guy had been saying to me for a long time. I was concerned that perhaps he been misinformed and had subsequently been short-changed all these years. The years have taken their toll on this elderly man and it would have been understandable to me that he had been confused about the issue all this time.

The issue does seem to come up between us on an annual basis as I receive the increases as an American (which amazingly seem to often actually out-pace inflation, which translates into a real annual increase) while he's been locked into some rate that's been unchanged since James Callaghan was his Prime Minister.

It's kind of a good news-bad news situation. It's good that he's not been missing out on something he's entitled to, but bad that the government does this to their citizens in the first place.

Regardless, thanks again, Mobi.

[Mobi]

Thanks for the clarification, Mobi. I wasn't sure about the OP as it seemed to differ from what I had understood from what this nice old guy had been saying to me for a long time. I was concerned that perhaps he been misinformed and had subsequently been short-changed all these years. The years have taken their toll on this elderly man and it would have been understandable to me that he had been confused about the issue all this time.

The issue does seem to come up between us on an annual basis as I receive the increases as an American (which amazingly seem to often actually out-pace inflation, which translates into a real annual increase) while he's been locked into some rate that's been unchanged since James Callaghan was his Prime Minister.

It's kind of a good news-bad news situation. It's good that he's not been missing out on something he's entitled to, but bad that the government does this to their citizens in the first place.

Regardless, thanks again, Mobi.

You're welcome.

I too know an elderly (81) UK pensioner who is living in BKK on a very low UK state pension , and is in a pretty bad way. He is very bitter about what has happened to him.

This is off topic, but I once started a thread to see if I could get the poor old bugger a maid/nurse to help him (he is getting very infirm), and all I got for my troubles was a load of insults and invective along the lines that he got himself into the mess so it's his own fault , so why should anyone help him. The common cry was also that he should go back to England. Well he has spent most of his life overseas in the merchant navy and living in Thailand, lost all his savings years ago through a messy divorce and has no family or contacts there. He genuinely would rather die than go home.

Sometimes the lack of compassion amongst farangs in this country astounds me.

[Thaicoon]

I have just looked into this, i am 43 moving to Thailand, Thai wife, the government have told me i can pay volantary contributions at 7.20 per week, when living overseas, then entitled to a full pension, at the rate it is when i reach retirement age, then it is frozen.

I have been S-Employed since i was 16, so must pay in for 30 years, got 3 years left, this use to be 44 years i think.

But who knows, the way this government is in the UK will there be a pension

[Mobi]

I have just looked into this, i am 43 moving to Thailand, Thai wife, the government have told me i can pay volantary contributions at 7.20 per week, when living overseas, then entitled to a full pension, at the rate it is when i reach retirement age, then it is frozen.

I have been S-Employed since i was 16, so must pay in for 30 years, got 3 years left, this use to be 44 years i think.

But who knows, the way this government is in the UK will there be a pension

Check this out carefully on the government website. I was actually advised by an employee of the DWP that I should pay the 'employed' rate rather than the self employed rate as it is much lower. He told me that there is no check if you declare that you are 'employed' in Thailand, rather than self employed, and that everyone does this. The employed rate will still qualify you for your pension.

In any case, I don't know your circumstances, but if you have your own company in LOS then you are employed by the company, and therefore you are employed and not self employed.Even if you are doing nothing here, tell them you are employed - you will save yourself a lot of money in contributions.

[geoffphuket]

Lets hope the 2010 pensions reform act changes the current situation...somehow I doubt it

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/pensionsreform/

[Thaicoon]

I have just looked into this, i am 43 moving to Thailand, Thai wife, the government have told me i can pay volantary contributions at 7.20 per week, when living overseas, then entitled to a full pension, at the rate it is when i reach retirement age, then it is frozen.

I have been S-Employed since i was 16, so must pay in for 30 years, got 3 years left, this use to be 44 years i think.

But who knows, the way this government is in the UK will there be a pension

Check this out carefully on the government website. I was actually advised by an employee of the DWP that I should pay the 'employed' rate rather than the self employed rate as it is much lower. He told me that there is no check if you declare that you are 'employed' in Thailand, rather than self employed, and that everyone does this. The employed rate will still qualify you for your pension.

In any case, I don't know your circumstances, but if you have your own company in LOS then you are employed by the company, and therefore you are employed and not self employed.Even if you are doing nothing here, tell them you are employed - you will save yourself a lot of money in contributions.

Mobi,

Thanks, i will check this out, also i will ask my accountant closer the time, as everyone knows on this forum, it is a big decision moving overseas and a lot of red tape to get through in the process.

[GuestHouse]

I was talking with a dear friend a couple of days ago who is investigating the pension rights for his Thai wife, it seems she would not get a widows pension because she her self does not have a UK National insurance number.

I often wonder how many guys here are making pension provisions for their Thai wives - Reading between the lines I suspect many are not, or at least they are not thinking through the impact some of the pension choices they make will have on their Thai wife.

An example is' Taking a tax free lump sum on drawing pension - Seems too good to miss, but it has a direct negative impact on pension income and this becomes more so as time passess.

A guy in the not uncommon situation of having a wife 15 or 20 years his junior who reduces his pension at the outset is also reducing the pension of his wife who will almost certainly survive him by the 15 or 20 years of their age difference, likely a few years more.

So you blew your tax free cash lump sum on a Fortuna - Your wife will be paying for that every day of her own old age.

Edited October 14, 2007 by GuestHouse

[ronw]

I was talking with a dear friend a couple of days ago who is investigating the pension rights for his Thai wife, it seems she would not get a widows pension because she her self does not have a UK National insurance number.

I often wonder how many guys here are making pension provisions for their Thai wives - Reading between the lines I suspect many are not, or at least they are not thinking through the impact some of the pension choices they make will have on their Thai wife.

An example is' Taking a tax free lump sum on drawing pension - Seems too good to miss, but it has a direct negative impact on pension income and this becomes more so as time passess.

A guy in the not uncommon situation of having a wife 15 or 20 years his junior who reduces his pension at the outset is also reducing the pension of his wife who will almost certainly survive him by the 15 or 20 years of their age difference, likely a few years more.

So you blew your tax free cash lump sum on a Fortuna - Your wife will be paying for that every day of her own old age.

I really is possible to get a National Insurance number for your wife.......without going to the UK to have it issued....there are at least two of us in Thailand who have got a N.I number for our wives... IT CAN BE DONE!!!! and the wife is then entitled to a pension when she reaches pensionable age.

[churchill]

I was talking with a dear friend a couple of days ago who is investigating the pension rights for his Thai wife, it seems she would not get a widows pension because she her self does not have a UK National insurance number.

I often wonder how many guys here are making pension provisions for their Thai wives - Reading between the lines I suspect many are not, or at least they are not thinking through the impact some of the pension choices they make will have on their Thai wife.

An example is' Taking a tax free lump sum on drawing pension - Seems too good to miss, but it has a direct negative impact on pension income and this becomes more so as time passess.

A guy in the not uncommon situation of having a wife 15 or 20 years his junior who reduces his pension at the outset is also reducing the pension of his wife who will almost certainly survive him by the 15 or 20 years of their age difference, likely a few years more.

So you blew your tax free cash lump sum on a Fortuna - Your wife will be paying for that every day of her own old age.

I really is possible to get a National Insurance number for your wife.......without going to the UK to have it issued....there are at least two of us in Thailand who have got a N.I number for our wives... IT CAN BE DONE!!!! and the wife is then entitled to a pension when she reaches pensionable age.

How ?

[mrbojangles]

I was talking with a dear friend a couple of days ago who is investigating the pension rights for his Thai wife, it seems she would not get a widows pension because she her self does not have a UK National insurance number.

I really is possible to get a National Insurance number for your wife.......without going to the UK to have it issued....there are at least two of us in Thailand who have got a N.I number for our wives... IT CAN BE DONE!!!! and the wife is then entitled to a pension when she reaches pensionable age.

How ?

I don't believe it is possible if living in Thailand. You can only get one if you have a job, or sometimes if you can prove that you are actively seeking employment. You then have to have an interview, which my mrs (in the UK) had a few months ago.

So by living in Thailand, you couldn't attend the interview and certainly wouldn't be able to show you are actively seeking employment. If ronw know's of another way, many on here would like to know how.

[Taijitu]

I was talking with a dear friend a couple of days ago who is investigating the pension rights for his Thai wife, it seems she would not get a widows pension because she her self does not have a UK National insurance number.

I really is possible to get a National Insurance number for your wife.......without going to the UK to have it issued....there are at least two of us in Thailand who have got a N.I number for our wives... IT CAN BE DONE!!!! and the wife is then entitled to a pension when she reaches pensionable age.

How ?

I don't believe it is possible if living in Thailand. You can only get one if you have a job, or sometimes if you can prove that you are actively seeking employment. You then have to have an interview, which my mrs (in the UK) had a few months ago.

So by living in Thailand, you couldn't attend the interview and certainly wouldn't be able to show you are actively seeking employment. If ronw know's of another way, many on here would like to know how.

Really...it is possible. There are at least three of us now if you count myself in!!

I receive a UK State Pension and I applied for an additional pension for the person looking after my daughter. My daughter is only 6 years old and she is looked after by her mother who is also my wife. After I sent the appropriate documents required to claim my State Pension, and to substantiate the claim for the additional pension, I telephoned the DWP Office (International Section) in Longbenton to track the progress of each of the claims. The additional pension was paid late, but back-dated to my 65th birthday, and the delay was due to a National Insurance number being allocated to my wife.

When I die, she will receive an immediate Bereavement Benefit of 2000 UK pounds (today's level) and when she is 60 years old (or whatever the age will be for a woman to receive a State Pension), she will receive a pension in her own right.

[Mobi]

Fascinating stuff, and thank you so much for bringing this to our attention.

May I ask what was required by the DWP to satisfy themselves that your wife was genuine?

After all, presumably this may be open to scams by elderly Brits going through a form of marriage in Thailand just to get a married man's pension?

[maprao]

ronw can you please share with us how we get an NI number for our wives whilst we are not in the UK? You say it is easy.............HOW?

[HappyDave35]

I was reading, in the Pattaya forum, about the UK government's decision to freeze pensions for expats from the day they leave the UK. I'd been aware of this for some time, and I understand it goes to the ECHR in a month or so. Hopefully, they'll rule in favour of the complainants. It IS, IMO, grossly unfair to freeze payments at the old rate just because someone has chosen to live their dotage out abroad.

I've known an elderly British citizen residing in Thailand for years and for years he's told me his pension was frozen at some rate going back to the 1980's when he first came over here and that he's never received an increase.

Are you saying that this is not the case and that the British government is only now contemplating making this stipulation on its retired overseas citizens? Personally, not being British, I don't know... and he's certainly not above being confused about something... particularly when it involves governmental bureaucracy.

SJ There's been loads of thread on this topic.

The situation is that if UK pensioners move permanently overseas, it will depend which country they move as to whether their pension will be frozen. This has always been the case and nothing new has happened.

I think the OP is confused by ongoing appeals by various groups to get this ruling overturned. Some South African residents (whose pensions are also frozen) took their case to the high courts, and then the House of Lords where their appeals were rejected. I think they are now trying in the European court to get the decision overturned. Also there is Thailand based group that has a web site and is trying to get some sort of petition together to lobby the UK government.

As you might have guessed, Thailand is another country where pensioners have their pensioners frozen, yet perversely, pensioners in the USA do get the annual increases.

Thanks for the clarification, Mobi. I wasn't sure about the OP as it seemed to differ from what I had understood from what this nice old guy had been saying to me for a long time. I was concerned that perhaps he been misinformed and had subsequently been short-changed all these years. The years have taken their toll on this elderly man and it would have been understandable to me that he had been confused about the issue all this time.

The issue does seem to come up between us on an annual basis as I receive the increases as an American (which amazingly seem to often actually out-pace inflation, which translates into a real annual increase) while he's been locked into some rate that's been unchanged since James Callaghan was his Prime Minister.

It's kind of a good news-bad news situation. It's good that he's not been missing out on something he's entitled to, but bad that the government does this to their citizens in the first place.

Regardless, thanks again, Mobi.

Having worked and payed the Uk stamp tax most of my working life from the age of 14yrs, i emigrated to Australia in 1973.

My pension was frozen from that day on at 19 British pounds ! they will not index it. However this freeze only applies to persons going to certain countries. eg if i had gone to say Germany or Spain i would still be recieving the full pension entitlements..............how's that for a fair go?

I am now enrolled in a class action against the British government to be persued in the International Court of Justice, to hopefully recover our entitlements as we were never told that we would loose what we were paying in for all those years. Further to that, i believe that persons who have arrived in UK in later years from other countries, probably ex-colonies, do in fact recieve their full pension when reaching the required age.

Maybe there is someone out there who knows more about this situation than i do.

Regards.

[HappyDave35]

I was reading, in the Pattaya forum, about the UK government's decision to freeze pensions for expats from the day they leave the UK. I'd been aware of this for some time, and I understand it goes to the ECHR in a month or so. Hopefully, they'll rule in favour of the complainants. It IS, IMO, grossly unfair to freeze payments at the old rate just because someone has chosen to live their dotage out abroad.

I've known an elderly British citizen residing in Thailand for years and for years he's told me his pension was frozen at some rate going back to the 1980's when he first came over here and that he's never received an increase.

Are you saying that this is not the case and that the British government is only now contemplating making this stipulation on its retired overseas citizens? Personally, not being British, I don't know... and he's certainly not above being confused about something... particularly when it involves governmental bureaucracy.

SJ There's been loads of thread on this topic.

The situation is that if UK pensioners move permanently overseas, it will depend which country they move as to whether their pension will be frozen. This has always been the case and nothing new has happened.

I think the OP is confused by ongoing appeals by various groups to get this ruling overturned. Some South African residents (whose pensions are also frozen) took their case to the high courts, and then the House of Lords where their appeals were rejected. I think they are now trying in the European court to get the decision overturned. Also there is Thailand based group that has a web site and is trying to get some sort of petition together to lobby the UK government.

As you might have guessed, Thailand is another country where pensioners have their pensioners frozen, yet perversely, pensioners in the USA do get the annual increases.

Thanks for the clarification, Mobi. I wasn't sure about the OP as it seemed to differ from what I had understood from what this nice old guy had been saying to me for a long time. I was concerned that perhaps he been misinformed and had subsequently been short-changed all these years. The years have taken their toll on this elderly man and it would have been understandable to me that he had been confused about the issue all this time.

The issue does seem to come up between us on an annual basis as I receive the increases as an American (which amazingly seem to often actually out-pace inflation, which translates into a real annual increase) while he's been locked into some rate that's been unchanged since James Callaghan was his Prime Minister.

It's kind of a good news-bad news situation. It's good that he's not been missing out on something he's entitled to, but bad that the government does this to their citizens in the first place.

Regardless, thanks again, Mobi.

Having worked and payed the Uk stamp tax most of my working life from the age of 14yrs, i emigrated to Australia in 1973.

My pension was frozen from that day on at 19 British pounds ! they will not index it. However this freeze only applies to persons going to certain countries. eg if i had gone to say Germany or Spain i would still be recieving the full pension entitlements..............how's that for a fair go?

I am now enrolled in a class action against the British government to be persued in the International Court of Justice, to hopefully recover our entitlements as we were never told that we would loose what we were paying in for all those years. Further to that, i believe that persons who have arrived in UK in later years from other countries, probably ex-colonies, do in fact recieve their full pension when reaching the required age.

Maybe there is someone out there who knows more about this situation than i do.

Regards.

Sorry, i think that should read .......European Court of Justice.

[Mobi]

All people recieving a UK state pension are subject to the same rules - regardles of where they came from, and when they arrived in England.

Under the enacted regulations, pensioners living in certain overseas countries (E.g. USA) will receive the annual pension increases, whereas others (e.g. Thailand and South Africa) have their pension rate frozen when they take up residence in that country. There appears to be no rhyme or reason to it, but that's the way it is.

It is unlikely that this law will be reversed, but you never know.

[Martin]

Can somebody quote some UK Government references on this subject, please?

When I informed the Pension Service that my (Thai) wife and I were moving permanently to Thailand, I got a letter saying that we would not get:

(1) the annual increase in the UK State Pension,

(2) Bereavement Benefit,

(3) Widow's Benefit,

(4) Christmas Benefit.

Also our State Pension went down because part of it was based on the years I had worked in Canada (which, unlike Thailand, has a Social Services agreement with the UK) as a yoiung man, and that part was stopped.

I believe that there is now no Widow's Pension, even for UK residents. It was replaced by Widow's Benefit, which is only payable if the widow lacks other income.

Occupational pensions are an entirely a different matter, and I have never heard of any to which it makes any difference whether you continue to reside in the UK or move elsewhere.

[ronigere]

Very interesting subject I am a pensioer,and I say in thailand on a 1 year visa but i am not a resient what makes you a resident .ie. not living in the UK?

[RayBan]

Hi all,

In relation to this subject there is currentlt an e-petition being formulated to protest about frozen pensions, you can find the link here.... Frozen pension petition to Downing Street

It is in everyone's interest (worldwide) who are due a UK state pension to sign this petition.

There are also some useful hyperlinks at the petition site on this subject............hope this helps............

[Patriciachas]

Very interesting subject I am a pensioer,and I say in thailand on a 1 year visa but i am not a resient what makes you a resident .ie. not living in the UK?

Once you have been out of uk for 3 months or more

[xyborg]

<br />I was talking with a dear friend a couple of days ago who is investigating the pension rights for his Thai wife, it seems she would not get a widows pension because she her self does not have a UK National insurance number.<br /><br /><br />I often wonder how many guys here are making pension provisions for their Thai wives - Reading between the lines I suspect many are not, or at least they are not thinking through the impact some of the pension choices they make will have on their Thai wife.<br /><br />An example is' Taking a tax free lump sum on drawing pension - Seems too good to miss, but it has a direct negative impact on pension income and this becomes more so as time passess. <br /><br />A guy in the not uncommon situation of having a wife 15 or 20 years his junior who reduces his pension at the outset is also reducing the pension of his wife who will almost certainly survive him by the 15 or 20 years of their age difference, likely a few years more.<br /><br /><br />So you blew your tax free cash lump sum on a Fortuna - Your wife will be paying for that every day of her own old age.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Guesthouse there was a guy who recently got this Ni number for his Thai wife despite her never having set foot in the Uk. It can be done but I cannot recall how it was done. Even the pension people were unsure but were proved wrong by this chap. He has set the precedent now. He fought it for about 2 years i think.

[kerrs69]

My wife just had the interview for ni number last tuesday she's in the u.k with me and are daughter but not actively looking work.

What i do was put a claim in for tax credits which my wife must have a ni number for the tax credits office arranged an interview at the job centre went down bloke filled in the form and said she will get her number in a couple of weeks and her card in about 6-8 weeks.

I had been told previously by the inland revenue that my wife must have a job or be actively looking a job before she get's an n.i number but obviously this isn't the case

But she did have to go to the interview

Kerrs

[rainman]

That is terrible. The pensions in many European countries are already so low that people can't live a decent life in their own country and then they want to go ahead and deny them an acceptable life elsewhere.