Title Of Property

[Jbragg]

I am thinking about buying a house with my wife. She is Thai and i am American. I was wondering if we do this are we both on the land/house title or will it be just her. This is a 7 mil baht house paid for with no loan needed. So I really want to protect myself here. Any info would be great. I ask because my wife had said the company said it could only be in her name. Sounds a bit odd but things here are very different then what I am use to in the US. Thanks in Advance for your input.

JB

[TheWalkingMan]

Hi JB,

In plain language:

Non-Thai people are not allowed to own land. However, there is some type of ownership related to an investment of 40 million baht so realistically speaking, you cannot own the land.

You can own the house and your wife can lease the land to you which gives you the right to live there. But if things go belly up would you really want to stay? Not to sound cynical, and as so many others state, do not invest in real estate unless you are prepared to walk away from it... without compensation.

Have you looked into a condo purchase? There is a limit of 49% foreign ownership but, it is easier to purchase a condo in your name and keep your investment safe. Just curious, how much of the 7mil is the wife kicking in or is it a case of you ponying up 100%?

Search around the forum as there are volumes written on this topic.

Cheers,

TheWalkingMan

[Jbragg]

Well to be honest. That would be all me. I have heard the stories about the perfect wife until the house is paid for. Do not think this is the case with my wife. But I am sure many others thought the same. So just looking for options to protect myself. Does not sound like there are many. Thanks for your input.

JB

[quiksilva]

What she said is true, but there are things you can do to protect yourself, such as getting an usufruct and registering yourself as your wife's mortgagor. The usufruct gives you lifetime rights of habitation and being the mortgagor gives you control over the title deed.

[Khun Jean]

One way of protecting yourself is to NOT buy a house in her village or area where the rest of her family lifes.

At least then if things go wrong you still have a possibility you are able to stay in YOUR house without being bothered.

Then go get a usefruct for the land and put the house in your name.

That is about as good a protection you can get.

Not to jinx a good marriage, but if things go wrong, make sure you seperate on good terms. It will make your live afterwards a lot easier.

Still if it happens you have to fork up at least 50% of the value of the house to compensate your wife. Or sell it (good luck).

[Beardog]

How well do you know your wife to be!

Where did you meet her?I trust not in a bar!!!!!

I am American also have been with my girl almost 4 years & still have a very good relationship.

It is important to meet the girls family to get a feel of her family values, I know this is tough unless you speak & understand perfect Thai.

If you are a good judge of character,odds are in your favor.

Bar girls are a bust. We will read about your woes most likely on the forum halls of shame.

I live in a farang village withe 95% bar girls & my gal tells me they talk all day long about waiting for the 1.3 million baht truck to go with the 5 mill. baht house before they (mir ting) spelled wrong I am sure means takes you for everything & sends you down the road -talkin to yourself without the house & truck. I have met 12 such types when I lived in Pattaya.

best advice-never put out any funds in their favor that you can't afford to say goodbye to if things go awry!

My girl was a Hair stylist for 4 years before I met her She has outstanding family values.

I risked all & bought close to 2 acres in her name.I know I can lose it all, but at least I feel I have done all I could to minimize the damage.& if you do break up keep it on good terms ........you stand to get something back in return.

Quicksilva is a lifesaver & coached me on my choices in this matter.THANK YOU AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your wife calls you DARLING watch your wallet!(probably worked as a hustler as a bar girl for some time.

take your time 7 mill. is a big decision & I would definitely agree that it is a poor decision to have the family to close to your pad!

You could be a victim of Space Invaders!

Good luck to you. Be smart & cautious This is Asia & millions of baht is like Billions in the U.S. to us!

If your have not known your gal to long listen to the posters here, as they have heard all the horror stories & know the dire consequences. Fortunately or unfortunately I made the commitment & feel I made the right choice.

It does suck to have to tell your neighbor though your girl has been playin tic tac toe & she is about to do you!

Beardog

[lannarebirth]

Consider this. Have the seller issue you a lifetime usufruct, and have him then sell the home to your wife SUBJECT TO THE USUFRUCT. You would then have control of the property for your lifetime , even though your wife would still own it.

[thaigene2]

What she said is true, but there are things you can do to protect yourself, such as getting an usufruct and registering yourself as your wife's mortgagor. The usufruct gives you lifetime rights of habitation and being the mortgagor gives you control over the title deed.

I asked about tis once before on Thai Visa and the advice was that acting as the 'mortgagor' wouldn't work, as she is supposed to have signed the land office paper saying it was her own money. I know that you mean the foreigner is acting as a 'banker' but the advice I rec'd was that won't wash..

The Usufruct seems to be the one that most suggest, but like Khun Jean above says, make sure you're far away from her family if the marriage goes bac. Even then, there's little to protect you from her brothers and cousins coming round to persuade you to move out.

It's a lose-lose as far as I can tell.

You need registration for any sort of guarantee and you simply aren't eligible for that. Buy a nice condo instead. Or rent.

[longball53098]

Why listen to all the rumors and stories?

Find a good lawyer that has been refered by someone you trust and have them handle the affairs the correct and legal way,,,,,,,,,,,if you continue to to listen to the stories on this forum you will make yourself crazy,,,,,,,,,,,you know what they say about opinions,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,everybody has one. Most of those opinions are based on hearsay and rumor and bar talk.

Get legal advice,,,,,,,,,,,

[Khun Jean]

Ahum,

Maybe i should switch on the light for you.

Legal advice? In Thailand?

No way, here you are on your own. Survival of the fittest, jungle law. Whatever you call it. It is NOT like the western world where things are more clear. Do your own research.

I hope you not trust your lawyer 100%, because you will have a nasty surprise in the future.

In the end it is up to you!

I dare to say, that right here you get the right information about legal possibilities. Not the standard BS most of the lawyers give you. Most "advice" from them is to enable a sale. Once that is done, there gone. And you have the problem of an illegal or very insecure situation.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Khun Jean

[donx]

What she said is true, but there are things you can do to protect yourself, such as getting an usufruct and registering yourself as your wife's mortgagor. The usufruct gives you lifetime rights of habitation and being the mortgagor gives you control over the title deed.

I asked about tis once before on Thai Visa and the advice was that acting as the 'mortgagor' wouldn't work, as she is supposed to have signed the land office paper saying it was her own money. I know that you mean the foreigner is acting as a 'banker' but the advice I rec'd was that won't wash..

The Usufruct seems to be the one that most suggest, but like Khun Jean above says, make sure you're far away from her family if the marriage goes bac. Even then, there's little to protect you from her brothers and cousins coming round to persuade you to move out.

It's a lose-lose as far as I can tell.

You need registration for any sort of guarantee and you simply aren't eligible for that. Buy a nice condo instead. Or rent.

I have to agree with thaigene2 that it appears to me that all these options such as leasing of land, usufruct, etc. with your wife is just not going to hold up in a court of law. Someone in another thread posted that such agreements between spouses can be voided by either party at any time. If your goal is to protect yourself from what your wife may or may not do in the future, I think all these options are not going to work. If, however, your goal is to protect yourself from what may happen if your spouse dies, then these provisions do look like they could help in keeping the in-laws at bay.

You can either trust your spouse (as I do) and give her funds to buy land in her name (as I have done). This is risky and therefore you should not invest more than you can afford to easily walk away from. Or you can purchase a condo in your name where you won't have to worry about having control of it.

[lannarebirth]

What she said is true, but there are things you can do to protect yourself, such as getting an usufruct and registering yourself as your wife's mortgagor. The usufruct gives you lifetime rights of habitation and being the mortgagor gives you control over the title deed.

I asked about tis once before on Thai Visa and the advice was that acting as the 'mortgagor' wouldn't work, as she is supposed to have signed the land office paper saying it was her own money. I know that you mean the foreigner is acting as a 'banker' but the advice I rec'd was that won't wash..

The Usufruct seems to be the one that most suggest, but like Khun Jean above says, make sure you're far away from her family if the marriage goes bac. Even then, there's little to protect you from her brothers and cousins coming round to persuade you to move out.

It's a lose-lose as far as I can tell.

You need registration for any sort of guarantee and you simply aren't eligible for that. Buy a nice condo instead. Or rent.

I have to agree with thaigene2 that it appears to me that all these options such as leasing of land, usufruct, etc. with your wife is just not going to hold up in a court of law. Someone in another thread posted that such agreements between spouses can be voided by either party at any time. If your goal is to protect yourself from what your wife may or may not do in the future, I think all these options are not going to work. If, however, your goal is to protect yourself from what may happen if your spouse dies, then these provisions do look like they could help in keeping the in-laws at bay.

You can either trust your spouse (as I do) and give her funds to buy land in her name (as I have done). This is risky and therefore you should not invest more than you can afford to easily walk away from. Or you can purchase a condo in your name where you won't have to worry about having control of it.

The highlighted part is why I mentioned getting the usufruct first and then having the wife buy the land subject to the usufruct. Can you find a flaw in that arrangement?

[donx]

What she said is true, but there are things you can do to protect yourself, such as getting an usufruct and registering yourself as your wife's mortgagor. The usufruct gives you lifetime rights of habitation and being the mortgagor gives you control over the title deed.

I asked about tis once before on Thai Visa and the advice was that acting as the 'mortgagor' wouldn't work, as she is supposed to have signed the land office paper saying it was her own money. I know that you mean the foreigner is acting as a 'banker' but the advice I rec'd was that won't wash..

The Usufruct seems to be the one that most suggest, but like Khun Jean above says, make sure you're far away from her family if the marriage goes bac. Even then, there's little to protect you from her brothers and cousins coming round to persuade you to move out.

It's a lose-lose as far as I can tell.

You need registration for any sort of guarantee and you simply aren't eligible for that. Buy a nice condo instead. Or rent.

I have to agree with thaigene2 that it appears to me that all these options such as leasing of land, usufruct, etc. with your wife is just not going to hold up in a court of law. Someone in another thread posted that such agreements between spouses can be voided by either party at any time. If your goal is to protect yourself from what your wife may or may not do in the future, I think all these options are not going to work. If, however, your goal is to protect yourself from what may happen if your spouse dies, then these provisions do look like they could help in keeping the in-laws at bay.

You can either trust your spouse (as I do) and give her funds to buy land in her name (as I have done). This is risky and therefore you should not invest more than you can afford to easily walk away from. Or you can purchase a condo in your name where you won't have to worry about having control of it.

The highlighted part is why I mentioned getting the usufruct first and then having the wife buy the land subject to the usufruct. Can you find a flaw in that arrangement?

The only flaw I see is that such an arrangement may not be very pratical to implement. How do you get the current owner to agree to such an arrangement? They may decided the whole thing is suspicious and pull out. If you have someone else "temporarily" purchase the property for the purpose of setting up the usufruct then additional transfer fees and taxes will be required which won't be cheap since the property will be flipped relatively quickly.

By the way, couldn't the same thing be done for a 30 year lease? If written properly, the 30 year lease should transfer with the sale of the propery the same as a usufruct, so why do you feel the usufruct is a better construct in this situation?

[lannarebirth]

What she said is true, but there are things you can do to protect yourself, such as getting an usufruct and registering yourself as your wife's mortgagor. The usufruct gives you lifetime rights of habitation and being the mortgagor gives you control over the title deed.

I asked about tis once before on Thai Visa and the advice was that acting as the 'mortgagor' wouldn't work, as she is supposed to have signed the land office paper saying it was her own money. I know that you mean the foreigner is acting as a 'banker' but the advice I rec'd was that won't wash..

The Usufruct seems to be the one that most suggest, but like Khun Jean above says, make sure you're far away from her family if the marriage goes bac. Even then, there's little to protect you from her brothers and cousins coming round to persuade you to move out.

It's a lose-lose as far as I can tell.

You need registration for any sort of guarantee and you simply aren't eligible for that. Buy a nice condo instead. Or rent.

I have to agree with thaigene2 that it appears to me that all these options such as leasing of land, usufruct, etc. with your wife is just not going to hold up in a court of law. Someone in another thread posted that such agreements between spouses can be voided by either party at any time. If your goal is to protect yourself from what your wife may or may not do in the future, I think all these options are not going to work. If, however, your goal is to protect yourself from what may happen if your spouse dies, then these provisions do look like they could help in keeping the in-laws at bay.

You can either trust your spouse (as I do) and give her funds to buy land in her name (as I have done). This is risky and therefore you should not invest more than you can afford to easily walk away from. Or you can purchase a condo in your name where you won't have to worry about having control of it.

The highlighted part is why I mentioned getting the usufruct first and then having the wife buy the land subject to the usufruct. Can you find a flaw in that arrangement?

The only flaw I see is that such an arrangement may not be very pratical to implement. How do you get the current owner to agree to such an arrangement? They may decided the whole thing is suspicious and pull out. If you have someone else "temporarily" purchase the property for the purpose of setting up the usufruct then additional transfer fees and taxes will be required which won't be cheap since the property will be flipped relatively quickly.

By the way, couldn't the same thing be done for a 30 year lease? If written properly, the 30 year lease should transfer with the sale of the propery the same as a usufruct, so why do you feel the usufruct is a better construct in this situation?

Well, because I'm 50. I'd like to think I'll live longer than 30 years, but truthfiully, either would do.

[Khun Jean]

Nobody have family and relatives to which the financial 'empire' you build can be left?

Does everything have to go to the Thai spouse and maybe Thai offspring?

No children in the west that should get a large part of this when you finally stop living?

When i read about 30 year leases and usufructs until you die, nothing is transferable to those left behind except for the Thai 'Family'.

I am not in that situation, but i can guess there are a lot of people who have children that are not Thai citizens.

What can be done for them, or i am i just 'old fashioned' to think that they deserve a large part of what is left behind.

I would think that if you have worked for most of your live to build up something, it would be nice to leave it for your children so that they at least have some financial help and or property to build upon.

Can anything be done about that?

Is a condominium transferable to your western children?

Can land be transfered to your children so that they can dispose of it within a year and at least recoup a large part of the value?

Many questions and situation that are not that difficult to arrange in the western world, but here, it seems almost impossible.

[admiraldy]

For you to be on the safe side , and to sleep without worrying everynight what will happen if your wife decides to leave you , go and buy a condo with your name on the title deed , or rent a house in the village of your wife .

[Beardog]

For you to be on the safe side , and to sleep without worrying everynight what will happen if your wife decides to leave you , go and buy a condo with your name on the title deed , or rent a house in the village of your wife .

Good choice of words!

Either you trust her or you semi protect-----or if not do the sensible thing as you just mentioned.

I would hate to have to worry about a bigger ticket item,when there are enough small fry issues day to day to contend with.

besides the 12 story dive off one of the condo's seems like a hideous prospect...........

By the way where did the OP go!

[Gary A]

A question and an answer. Why do you need a seven million baht house? And now the answer but still in the form of a question. Can you afford to walk away from seven million baht without missing any meals or affecting your lifestyle?

[johnnyk]

A question and an answer. Why do you need a seven million baht house? And now the answer but still in the form of a question. Can you afford to walk away from seven million baht without missing any meals or affecting your lifestyle?

A 7-million baht house in a mooban is a screaming advertisement of your wealth. Face for your wife but maybe endless pestering for both of you.

You can be plenty comfy in a 1 or 2-million baht house and keep the rest of the swag stashed elsewhere.

"One never knows, does one?"

- Thomas "Fats" Waller

musician and bon vivant

[ThaiLawOnline]

A usufruct is "normally" a better option than a lease because it's not limited to 30 years and you don't pay taxes. A lease can't be done for free...and you pay 12.5% tax on the rent.

Many people put the rent on paper and don't really pay it but have to pay the taxes.

If you buy a huge mansion, near the beach, have foreign children and want them to enjoy the house after your death, if you are quite old, for example, I would go for the lease. All situation are different.

I agree with Khun Jean that most lawyers want to sell. But there is a normal part there.

What is not normal is to exagerate, lie, tell them that it's 100% safe and problems won't happen.

But if you can't trust a lawyer, what should you do? Get advice on wikipedia?

Someone wrote here that you can't transfer a lease to your foreign heirs...that's false.

This is why it's sometime better to consult someone in the field...and with experience.

I do usufructs almost every week and can give you references from clients. I have a background in civil law and studied usufruct. I met a Thai barrister at law last week, with a master degree in law, and he didn't know so much about usufructs. Why? Because he works with Thai people and Thai people rarely need this. But for foreigners, it's a good solution.

Sebastian.

[fletchsmile]

A question and an answer. Why do you need a seven million baht house? And now the answer but still in the form of a question. Can you afford to walk away from seven million baht without missing any meals or affecting your lifestyle?

A 7-million baht house in a mooban is a screaming advertisement of your wealth. Face for your wife but maybe endless pestering for both of you.

You can be plenty comfy in a 1 or 2-million baht house and keep the rest of the swag stashed elsewhere.

"One never knows, does one?"

- Thomas "Fats" Waller

musician and bon vivant

Think 7mio for BKK or a nice seaside town is not unreasonable. Even then that would be expensive for some seaside towns like Hua Hin, Cha Am, etc

If you're talking up country, there's some serious questions to be asked... The sort of very basic houses up country in North East that Thais themselves live in cost around THB 60,000-100,000. OK as a foreigner you want something nicer, but I can't really see why anyone would spend more than 2-3mio maximum in Nakorn Nowhere...I'm no builder but I'm sure it doesn't cost that much if a Thai buys without farang financing.

Edited October 22, 2007 by fletchthai68