Stick Vs Automatic

[dominique355]

.. Than there's beautiful art of using the manual gearbox for breaking ! ! i am the guy who whizzes past most of you on either town , or a highway, but when shit hits the fan i am sure, that my Manual will come to a screeching halt twice as fast,as any Auto possibly could, even with well adjusted handbrake, and i can vouch for it saved me a good many times, here in Thailand especially !

I beg to differ. Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal. Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward. The method where you shift and brake and jump around the pedals, maybe even double clutch while shifting down, braking and accelerating at the same time is totally outdated. This was fine when there was no synchronization in the gearbox.

And don't use your handbrake in an emergency stop. Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Hopefully you have ABS and can avoid an obstacle while braking. The handbrake will imbalance your car and the spin follows immediately.

Edited October 21, 2007 by dominique355

[britmaveric]

Learned on a stick, hence can drive anything. However lazy arse that I am prefer automatic.

[calibanjr.]

.. Than there's beautiful art of using the manual gearbox for breaking ! ! i am the guy who whizzes past most of you on either town , or a highway, but when shit hits the fan i am sure, that my Manual will come to a screeching halt twice as fast,as any Auto possibly could, even with well adjusted handbrake, and i can vouch for it saved me a good many times, here in Thailand especially !

I beg to differ. Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal. Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward. The method where you shift and brake and jump around the pedals, maybe even double clutch while shifting down, braking and accelerating at the same time is totally outdated. This was fine when there was no synchronization in the gearbox.

And don't use your handbrake in an emergency stop. Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Hopefully you have ABS and can avoid an obstacle while braking. The handbrake will imbalance your car and the spin follows immediately.

Great fun in a snowstorm or on an icy parking lot! We used to get up a running start and yank the "e-brake" (handbrake, parking brake, whatever you call it). Great cheap fun, unless you hit something.

[elkangorito]

I beg to differ. Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal. Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward. The method where you shift and brake and jump around the pedals, maybe even double clutch while shifting down, braking and accelerating at the same time is totally outdated. This was fine when there was no synchronization in the gearbox.

And don't use your handbrake in an emergency stop. Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Hopefully you have ABS and can avoid an obstacle while braking. The handbrake will imbalance your car and the spin follows immediately.

Who taught you how to drive? A Thai?

As for ABS...statistically, vehicles fitted with ABS are involved in more accidents compared to vehicles NOT fitted with ABS. Why? Because the owners of vehicles with ABS think that they can be more relaxed (more careless) about braking.

Assisted breaking (using gears) is an important part of driving.

Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward.

If you think that the above quote is correct, you know very little about engines & not much more about driving.

Edited October 21, 2007 by elkangorito

[VocalNeal]

quote]This is a good one, this wil be like smoking versus non smoking ! ill start off with, I HATE MANUALS,!

So you'll be ordering the 850 Mana as your next bike

Edited October 21, 2007 by VocalNeal

[Thaiboxer]

I work with a British guy in his early 60's who swapped an automatic gearbox for a manual one in his used Ford Focus. Good on him! He also had the car decked out to look like a race car. He has the heart of a younger man and good reflexes to go with it.

[Sanpatong]

The only advantage of an auto box is in traffic.

Hm... That does happen to be the situation in which I mostly drive my car actually...

Anyway, I like manual, because I'm not in Bangkok. Also for mountain driving I think auto is especially ludicrous. But then when you drive in Bangkok rush hour.... ouch.. Never mind your arms, you start to feel your left knee after an hour or two of stop & go traffic.

[JimmyGreaves]

I work with a British guy in his early 60's who swapped an automatic gearbox for a manual one in his used Ford Focus. Good on him! He also had the car decked out to look like a race car. He has the heart of a younger man and good reflexes to go with it.

WOW! That's so interesting.

Sounds like your still in your teens.

Edited October 21, 2007 by jflundy

[Thaiboxer]

Did you mean to say "It sounds like he's still in his teens?"

I'm not in my teens anymore, however I still drive an old car. I've never owned a new car which saved on insurance; it wasn't worth carrying insurance on the cars I had and that goes for the one I have now!

[BPayette]

Did you mean to say "It sounds like he's still in his teens?"

I'm not in my teens anymore, however I still drive an old car. I've never owned a new car which saved on insurance; it wasn't worth carrying insurance on the cars I had and that goes for the one I have now!

AUTO, without a doubt!

BKK traffic is hard enough to drive in, dodging (or not, depending on your mood) the insane motorcyclists, let alone having to worry about shifting. clutching using the parking brake etc!

[Crossy]

AUTO, without a doubt!

BKK traffic is hard enough to drive in, dodging (or not, depending on your mood) the insane motorcyclists, let alone having to worry about shifting. clutching using the parking brake etc!

I you are having to THINK about the use of the gears and clutch you do not have sufficient driving experience to handle the Bangkok traffic in either an auto or manual vehicle. It is vital that control of the car is second nature and thus automatic before venturing out

I do agree that an auto is less wearing to drive in the stop-start lines that we have here.

[madjbs]

Although auto is easier to drive in traffic, to be honest the manual box in my car doesnt bother me at all. Probably because I am young and fit

[elkangorito]

See this link for some statisical info.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/capubs/abs71.pdf

This is the "abstract" of the info in the above link.

Numerous crash data statistical analyses conducted over the past few years suggest that, for automobiles, the introduction of four-wheel antilock brake systems (ABS) has produced net safety benefits much lower than originally expected. The studies indicate the apparent increase in single-vehicle crashes involving passenger cars equipped with four-wheel ABS almost completely offsets the safety advantage such vehicles have over their conventionally-braked counterparts. Other studies have suggested that this may be occurring because people drive faster in ABS-equipped vehicles, such as due to behavioral adaptation. As part of its Light Vehicle ABS Research Program, NHTSA conducted an observational experiment to investigate the possibility of behavioral adaptation resulting from ABS.

An experiment was conducted to unobtrusively determine whether drivers of vehicles equipped with ABS have a tendency to drive faster than drivers of conventionally braked vehicles. Several locations on public roadways around Ohio were selected as data collection sites. At these sites, the speed and license plate information of passing vehicles were unobtrusively measured and recorded using a laser speed gun, video camera, and laptop computer. Data were collected at each site for specified periods during daylight hours (balanced for AM/PM) in both wet and dry road conditions. Using the license plate number, the VIN number was obtained and then decoded to determine whether each vehicle had ABS. Average speed data for specified conditions and locations were compared for vehicles with ABS versus those without. The results of this study showed that type of brake system (ABS or conventional) had no significant effect on driving speed under the conditions examined. This finding of no significant speed effects was true for all sites, pavement conditions, and model years of vehicles observed. A consistent, but insignificant, trend was seen in mean speed by brake system for each site where higher speeds were observed for drivers of ABS-equipped vehicles. Significant results that were found included higher speeds for drivers of newer model cars, higher speeds for dry pavement, and that speed as a function of location (site). Overall, based on observed vehicle speed results, evidence of passenger car ABS-related driver behavioral adaptation was not observed using the methods employed in this study. Based on these and other related results from NHTSA’s Light Vehicle ABS Research Program, the authors believe that behavioral adaptation due to ABS is not occurring during “real world” driving. Thus, the results of this study suggest that the apparent increase in single-vehicle crashes involving ABS-equipped vehicles cannot be attributed to behavioral adaptation.

One must ask the question, "What is "real world" driving?"

Also of interest is the "Conclusion" at the end of the document.

Now, back to auto versus manual:

Like Crossy says, if you can't operate a manual gearbox likes it's "second nature", you shouldn't be driving it (& other vehicles). I, for one, have driven manuals for most of my life & have had no trouble whatsoever in heavy traffic with the exception of driving a 2.6 tonne long wheel base Toyota Landcruiser without power steering. After driving one of these babies for a few years, your arms & legs adapt to the extra effort needed & you find yourself being able to operate the machine expertly in "second nature" mode.

Would you sooner fly with a pilot who had learnt in an "automatic" aircraft, or a pilot who had learned how to fully control a manual aircraft?

Driving is like any other exercise...if you DON'T fully & regularly exercise it, you become lazy & your jugdement becomes reduced. Autos bypass some of the necessary "exercise" for maintaining good driving technique & jugdement.

[Thaiboxer]

ABS and automatic gearboxes do subtract a lot of the skill required to operate a vehicle, thus some drivers tend to engage in other activities rather than keeping their eyes on the road. Stick shifts require more focus although once you get used to driving them, you don't think much about the gear changes...it simply becomes second nature. Also, you can hear/feel when it's time to change gears without even looking at the tachometer. To save some strain on the left leg (plus your throwout bearing), you can have the car in neutral while waiting in heavy traffic on flat ground.

With these new, computerized automatic gearboxes, it requires more skill to repair them which probably means going to a dealership where prices are quite high unless it's still under warranty.

[hughden]

The latest edition Honda Civic 2.0 has a paddle shift gearbox which works really well. Instant change-downs to the gear of your choice for overtaking, and generally an enhanced feeling of control. Built in safety features so you can't change down too many gears and be rewarded with bits of hot engine rocketing skywards through the bonnet; and when you come to a stop it will stick it in first for you.

It has the usual automatic options; but I find I use the paddle shift all the time.

[torrenova]

Always had manuals because I grew up with then and thought autos were for old men in their jags but in Pattaya, the auto on the truck is so much easier on life.

Of the cars I would realistically buy - accord, camry, fortuner, truck, why would I go for the manual option ?

[Clipped]

automatics can be driven like a stick if you have the right type and know how to 'kick down' properly...vehicles with an overdrive button are a gift from heaven, release the button and the car downshifts just like a stick.

ive had around 15 cars in my life and only had problems with 1 automatic....had two sticks in my life and the clutch wore out on both...

nissan sr20de engines cut off the ac compressor when you kickdown...

ever try a v8 with a B&M shift kick? totally awesome...

sports car = stick

sedan= auto

[elkangorito]

Clutch wearing out? Manual gearbox noisy or difficult to "shift"?

All I can suggest is that whoever experiences the above, does not know how to correctly operate a manual vehicle. "Riding" the clutch is forbidden. If you can't NOT do this, don't drive.

Gear changes that are too fast will quickly wear the "dog" gears on a syncro box. Fast gear changes are for F1 drivers who have the appropriate gearboxes for such things.

I've seen many people complain about their clutches & gearboxes, & when you see them operate their vehicles, you feel sorry for the gearboxes & clutches. They clearly have no idea how to operate a manual.

There is a simple rule with manual gearboxes...treat them like you treat a "lady". In a word, GENTLY. Don't rip the thing from one gear to another...nice & slow. Don't use unnecessary RPM with the clutch whilst moving from an unloaded standstill point.

For all of you that think this is too difficult, once you can do this & "understand" this, your driving ability will increase & so will the mechanical life of your vehicle. Otherwise, keep forking lots of $ for your "easy" autos.

[Thaiboxer]

My father once said that one thing which kills automatics is when people are slowing down for a stop light and then it changes to green and they floor the accelerator forcing the poor thing to shift quickly. Autos downshift when the accelerator is floored then upshift to the appropriate gear. Being that you can't simply shift in a way which lightens the load on your drivetrain (as you can with a stick), it really wears the automatic out. A lot of people also don't change the fluid regularly which wears it out faster since ATF also acts as a lubricant/coolant for all the bands moving around in there.

[Plus]

Driving a car is not a rocket science. If you feel the need to build a "second nature" and learn all about oil viscosity, then go for manuals, if they still build them. How much more power are you going to extract from 109hp Toyota Corolla anyway?

The world has moved on and modern autos are completely adequate for people's needs.

[Flatouthruthefog]

Clutch wearing out? Manual gearbox noisy or difficult to "shift"?

All I can suggest is that whoever experiences the above, does not know how to correctly operate a manual vehicle. "Riding" the clutch is forbidden. If you can't NOT do this, don't drive.

Gear changes that are too fast will quickly wear the "dog" gears on a syncro box. Fast gear changes are for F1 drivers who have the appropriate gearboxes for such things.

I've seen many people complain about their clutches & gearboxes, & when you see them operate their vehicles, you feel sorry for the gearboxes & clutches. They clearly have no idea how to operate a manual.

There is a simple rule with manual gearboxes...treat them like you treat a "lady". In a word, GENTLY. Don't rip the thing from one gear to another...nice & slow. Don't use unnecessary RPM with the clutch whilst moving from an unloaded standstill point.

For all of you that think this is too difficult, once you can do this & "understand" this, your driving ability will increase & so will the mechanical life of your vehicle. Otherwise, keep forking lots of $ for your "easy" autos.

Could not have put this better myself! Thanks! Other first class comments:

"Out on the road when you really want to get the best out of the car - manual! In London traffic -automatic!" Sir Stirling Moss.

"The optimium control of a vehicle is achieved by the relationship between application of power and the real wheels": Dr.Ferdinand Porsche.

"Why do you think God gave you a left hand? To change gear of course!" Harry Ramsden (my grandfather, and like Stirling from a right hand drive nation!).

[Thaiboxer]

Another good thing about driving a manual is that it keeps your reflexes sharp...always a plus in BKK where kamikaze motorcyclists are coming from all directions.

As far as manuals still being built (as one poster mentioned), I doubt they'll ever be phased out. I can only guess that the reason for having semi-automatic transmissions is so that people who like automatics can "go manual" to some extent should they feel the urge. Still, nothing beats a good old stick shift!

[thai4u]

keep your reflexes,sharper your motion...hehe.. I know a good GYM in bkk that can help with all of these things.. I just want to drive comftable in most relaxed enviroment in the car..and relex.

[intumult]

Give me a manual box any day. Drop a cog (or two) to overtake AND, as many others have said, engine braking. If adept with a manual box you can brake faster and all the better for avoiding collisions.

Manuals are more fun too. Been driving now for 36 years and still have fun with a manual box.

But.... seems a lot more Autos in Thailand than manual

[torrenova]

Driving a car is not a rocket science. If you feel the need to build a "second nature" and learn all about oil viscosity, then go for manuals, if they still build them. How much more power are you going to extract from 109hp Toyota Corolla anyway?

The world has moved on and modern autos are completely adequate for people's needs.

Agreed. We are talking about 2007 autos (cars and boxes) not 1970's Dagenham Dustbins !

For the non English http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...agenham+dustbin

[Plus]

Another thing about being "closer to the engine" - I think it's a delusion. Modern engines are controlled by ECUs, not by levers and pulleys, and I bet they don't have any "manual override" options either.

At best the manual gear change will be recorded electronically and then the engine will respond. The far more sensible way to do it is to have buttons or paddles that simply tell the auto box to shift the gears. This original F1 derived technology is getting cheaper by the year and is now available in down market mass models like Honda Civic. Another way, the CVT with some fixed ratios, is available in even cheaper Jazz or City.

In the regular mode auto boxes are getting so good that people do not usually use "manual shift" option at all. Toyota thinks that for cheap cars like Vios "manual shift" is not worth the investment and the market proves them right.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Plus

[Thaiboxer]

It's true that today a person can shift gears using paddles or even the floor mounted shifter via electronic control units. However, the driver will have to depend entirely on these complex devices and any delay times associated with them. A regular manual gearbox is still more reliable and reacts instantly to driver input. To be fair, the electronic gizmos today do have very fast reaction times to driver input, however they're also more expensive to fix if something goes awry.

[Plus]

I'm pretty sure that modern shift paddles coupled with autoboxes work faster than manual gear change. Maybe not on Civics yet but it will be here. The price is also not a consideration anymore - electronics are cheap. Very cheap.

[lazeeboy]

I'm pretty sure that modern shift paddles coupled with autoboxes work faster than manual gear change. Maybe not on Civics yet but it will be here. The price is also not a consideration anymore - electronics are cheap. Very cheap.

got my first auto 20 years ago ,would never go back to manual ,for love nor money ///

[dominique355]

I beg to differ. Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal. Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward. The method where you shift and brake and jump around the pedals, maybe even double clutch while shifting down, braking and accelerating at the same time is totally outdated. This was fine when there was no synchronization in the gearbox.

And don't use your handbrake in an emergency stop. Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Hopefully you have ABS and can avoid an obstacle while braking. The handbrake will imbalance your car and the spin follows immediately.

Who taught you how to drive? A Thai?

Among others Pilota Ferrari (Ferrari's driving school on the race track), AUDI 1st., 2nd. and 3rd. driving school on the race track, 15 years of active racing all over Europe on all big race tracks. Do I need to go on?

As for ABS...statistically, vehicles fitted with ABS are involved in more accidents compared to vehicles NOT fitted with ABS. Why? Because the owners of vehicles with ABS think that they can be more relaxed (more careless) about braking.

Do they still sell cars without ABS?

Assisted breaking (using gears) is an important part of driving.

Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward.

If you think that the above quote is correct, you know very little about engines & not much more about driving.

Are you familiar with the notion of "drag torque"? I guess not.