65% Of Voters Ready To Sell Votes

[John K]

Younghusband if you wish to debate please base your points on facts. We are spending much of the time explaining to you that your points are way off reality. You have called Thailand’s highest court a kangaroo court. That is the same group of judges that made a few visits to the palace to see HRH. and the list goes on and on about the points you make being off reality.

As I said the word junta does not fit. It does not matter how much you want it to fit (and clearly you want it to fit), simply it does not fit. Admittedly it would be a very good debate if you did present actual facts but your points don’t represent reality. It seems you see what you want to see.

[younghusband]

Younghusband if you wish to debate please base your points on facts. We are spending much of the time explaining to you that your points are way off reality. You have called Thailand’s highest court a kangaroo court. That is the same group of judges that made a few visits to the palace to see HRH. and the list goes on and on about the points you make being off reality.

As I said the word junta does not fit. It does not matter how much you want it to fit (and clearly you want it to fit), simply it does not fit. Admittedly it would be a very good debate if you did present actual facts but your points don’t represent reality. It seems you see what you want to see.

You consistently break forum rules in the absence of arguments and I consistently refuse to rise to your provocation.Thai courts have always been subject to political influence and nothing has changed now.In your Alice in Wonderland world the term "junta" may not fit but few would agree.Plus is more thoughtful and better informed, but a distaste for democracy in a Thai context seems to be hardwired.To some extent I appreciate the distrust of a volatile and uneducated mob, but Thailand must somehow get through this difficult process where education is a key requirement.What gives the discussion its vitriol perhaps is the way the juntophiles totally ignore the appalling callousness of the Bangkok elite and the sickening hypocrisy of the way the finger is always pointed at the "stupid vote buying peasantry".At least John K has the excuse he doesn't seem to really understand what's going on.Anyway Hammered raises a fair point, and this tu quoque dialogue has meandered on too long and is no doubt boring everyone solid, so I'll sign off on this.

[sriracha john]

Actually, it was a fair point 44 posts ago... shame you failed to recognize it way back then.

[TAWP]

younghusband>> If I'm not mistaken calling the high court a kangaroo court or give the judges different names as well as to critic their decisions is a crime. Perhaps you should tone down your acid.

[John K]

younghusband>> If I'm not mistaken calling the high court a kangaroo court or give the judges different names as well as to critic their decisions is a crime. Perhaps you should tone down your acid.

Yes you a very right about that. All this negatives and misconceptions spewing from younghusband’s keyboard are starting to spread beyond cyberspace. I hope he is ready for the fallout.

[blaze]

younghusband>> If I'm not mistaken calling the high court a kangaroo court or give the judges different names as well as to critic their decisions is a crime. Perhaps you should tone down your acid.

Yes you a very right about that. All this negatives and misconceptions spewing from younghusband’s keyboard are starting to spread beyond cyberspace. I hope he is ready for the fallout.

good to see we are back on topic. And just curious- could you elaborate on the warning you have issued- that the rest of us who disagree with your perceptions can know just what we're dealing with?

[jbowman1993]

I asked my wife (thai businesswomen with an MBA) about vote buying. I asked her if anyone has ever offered to give her money, or any in her family (Chinatown area). To her knowledge no one ever has asked any of her family or herself personally. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it is quite as rampant, across the board, as people think. If every Thai person of voting age was getting 500 baht (45 million x 500) that would be some very deep pockets, lol. (22.5 billion baht)

I asked my wife, if someone were to offer you money, would you take it? She thought for a minute and said "yes", but then she would go in the voting booth and vote for whoever she cared to.

I would imagine this would be a popular opinion among a lot of people.

[Tony Clifton]

I asked my wife (thai businesswomen with an MBA) about vote buying. I asked her if anyone has ever offered to give her money, or any in her family (Chinatown area). To her knowledge no one ever has asked any of her family or herself personally. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it is quite as rampant, across the board, as people think. If every Thai person of voting age was getting 500 baht (45 million x 500) that would be some very deep pockets, lol. (22.5 billion baht)

I asked my wife, if someone were to offer you money, would you take it? She thought for a minute and said "yes", but then she would go in the voting booth and vote for whoever she cared to.

I would imagine this would be a popular opinion among a lot of people.

I remember the last government setting aside a budget with which they could do what they pleased with no checks and balances involved.

I doubt vote buying money really comes from someone's pocket, mostly taxpayer's money in the case of a party already in power or from criminal activities.

[Old Man River]

I asked my wife (thai businesswomen with an MBA) about vote buying. I asked her if anyone has ever offered to give her money, or any in her family (Chinatown area). To her knowledge no one ever has asked any of her family or herself personally. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it is quite as rampant, across the board, as people think. If every Thai person of voting age was getting 500 baht (45 million x 500) that would be some very deep pockets, lol. (22.5 billion baht)

Most of the vote buying takes place outside of Bangkok and the going rate is THB 500. You don't have to pay every voter to get a majority.

[Crow Boy]

younghusband>> If I'm not mistaken calling the high court a kangaroo court or give the judges different names as well as to critic their decisions is a crime. Perhaps you should tone down your acid.

Yes you a very right about that. All this negatives and misconceptions spewing from younghusband’s keyboard are starting to spread beyond cyberspace. I hope he is ready for the fallout.

And I hope this is not a threat. Let's continue the conversation but in a civilised manner from all sides of the discussion group.

CB

Moderating Team

Thai Visa

[Plus]

I have never heard of vote buying in Bangkok but I have no idea what goes on in traditional communities, they are pretty much lawless after dark.

Upcountry they do not always pay to win, some pay just to get name recognition. Those who pay to win find ways to monitor compliance. Canvassers and village heads are supposed know very well how people voted in their areas, they aren't that big and they know everyone. Money is only one part of coercion package, just like sin sod is not all there is to arranging marriage.

[Plus]

I am not sure about the poorly educated point either. I persoanlly know many well eductaed people who to this day want Mr. Taksin back ....

Education brings awareness, nothing more. It doesn't guarantee that people would make a "right" choice. For one thing they might have their own interests in mind. Like those new faces in PPP - they see a chance to get into politics and it's too bad it came from Samak, but, as a once in a lifetime opportunity, they are not going to miss it. For others expressing support for TRT is a business decision - all those sweet government contract.

People at the voting booths have different goals, not everyone votes in country's best interest as often assumed. Statistically it all evens out in the end.

Also don't discount Thaksin's intial support among middle classes and "progressives". He was very very promising and many of his current critics were in that camp. I hope this erosion of support base will prove decisive - I don't believe it was only rural voters who brought Thaksin his victories.

Technically in a yes/no vote "ignorant" people have 50% change of getting it right while determined "educated" folks will get it wrong 100%.

[John K]

younghusband>> If I'm not mistaken calling the high court a kangaroo court or give the judges different names as well as to critic their decisions is a crime. Perhaps you should tone down your acid.

Yes you a very right about that. All this negatives and misconceptions spewing from younghusband’s keyboard are starting to spread beyond cyberspace. I hope he is ready for the fallout.

good to see we are back on topic. And just curious- could you elaborate on the warning you have issued- that the rest of us who disagree with your perceptions can know just what we're dealing with?

Well on the courts they certainly appear very touchy on challenges to their rulings. There was a big statement as I recall before the TRT ruling came down to attack the court you could find yourself in jail. Similar things happened to some people when the EC 3 went to jail when the courts felt they were being disrespected. As I recall Chuwit caught some heat just by bringing a bag lunch to the EC3 at jail they day they went in. Insulting the courts is like standing on thin ice on a hot summer day.

[Tony Clifton]

As I said the word junta does not fit. It does not matter how much you want it to fit (and clearly you want it to fit), simply it does not fit.

jun·ta (hʊn'tə, jŭn'-) pronunciation

n.

1. A group of military officers ruling a country after seizing power.

junta (hoon-tuh, jun-tuh)

A group of military leaders who govern a country after a coup d'état.

Don't know how you can dispute the meaning with a straight face. It's 100% correct to label the current administration a junta.

I can't see the word temporarily in any of the descriptions.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[blaze]

As I said the word junta does not fit. It does not matter how much you want it to fit (and clearly you want it to fit), simply it does not fit.

jun·ta (hʊn'tə, jŭn'-) pronunciation

n.

1. A group of military officers ruling a country after seizing power.

junta (hoon-tuh, jun-tuh)

A group of military leaders who govern a country after a coup d'état.

Don't know how you can dispute the meaning with a straight face. It's 100% correct to label the current administration a junta.

I can't see the word temporarily in any of the descriptions.

In the definition of democracy, I don't see the word "intermittant'- though in Thailand's case.... maybe it should be included.

[John K]

As I said the word junta does not fit. It does not matter how much you want it to fit (and clearly you want it to fit), simply it does not fit.

jun·ta (hʊn'tə, jŭn'-) pronunciation

n.

1. A group of military officers ruling a country after seizing power.

junta (hoon-tuh, jun-tuh)

A group of military leaders who govern a country after a coup d'état.

Don't know how you can dispute the meaning with a straight face. It's 100% correct to label the current administration a junta.

I can't see the word temporarily in any of the descriptions.

You don't see the word 'temporarily' because that is not a condition of the definition.

Exactly! I don’t see the Junta sitting in the PM chair do you? I see someone who was more or less called out of retirement to help out. I also don’t see the junta governing the country, do you? I see them tending to the security of the nation and the last time I checked, that is the job of every military no mater what country. In this case the attack comes from Thaksin and his self centered followers. In fact I don’t see anyone wearing a military uniform running around the Government house unless they are just visiting, do you?

Like I said it does not fit the description.

[blaze]

As I said the word junta does not fit. It does not matter how much you want it to fit (and clearly you want it to fit), simply it does not fit.

jun·ta (hʊn'tə, jŭn'-) pronunciation

n.

1. A group of military officers ruling a country after seizing power.

junta (hoon-tuh, jun-tuh)

A group of military leaders who govern a country after a coup d'état.

Don't know how you can dispute the meaning with a straight face. It's 100% correct to label the current administration a junta.

I can't see the word temporarily in any of the descriptions.

Thought you might get a kick out of this- from Webster's online dictionary:

"In the past, military juntas have justified their rule as a way of bringing political stability for the nation or rescuing it from the threat of dangerous ideologies. Military regimes tend to portray themselves as non-partisan, and a "neutral" party that can provide interim leadership in times of turmoil. In practice, however, military regimes can often be quite brutal, staying in power for long periods of time and committing many human rights abuses. "

That there is an appointed (by the junta) legislature with the nuts and bolts obligations tacitly understood by both parties doesn't change the command structure. (In fact, public disagreements serve to enhance the myth of legislative independence and impartiality of the CNS).

Edited November 7, 2007 by blaze

[ilyushin]

Free money. Vote buying? I can't imagine.

[Plus]

The junta doesn't rule the country, the only thing they can do is to sack Surayud, which they won't dare anyway.

They didn't appoint government ministers and they didn't appoint current NLA members, and both these bodies snubbed CNS on a few occasions.

The "junta" is a history. Nothing untoward is going to happen by the looks of it, but I still keep my fingers crossed jsut in case.

If you look at Thai news stories, CNS has become irrelevant long time ago and I wonder when our resident junta bashers would realise that they are beating a dead horse.

[John K]

Actually to the people who are bashing the junta, I will make you happy and admit there was a junta based on your description after the 2006 coup. It existed and matched the common description for a few months.

The junta did appoint a government and yes they did help it with the decision making process for a while. But that was only until the new government had a good enough footing to go on it’s own. From that point on they have been weaning the government off any influence they may have had.

By May 2007 the junta was only making recommendations but the PM had the final say. That is where we are today. You don’t see the word junta in the paper anymore, and that has been replace with things like vote buying and so on.

[John K]

Isaan plagued by vote buying: EC

Election Commission member Sodsri Satayatham said on Thursday that the Northeast was plagued with a highest number of complaints on campaign violations.

"Based on complaints filed, Isaan is seeing more cases of votebuying than other regions," she said.

Sodsri said allegations were mostly about free trips for villagers in exchange for supports as organised by village headmen acting as vote canvassers.

She also criticised that a certain party relied on the underhanded tactics of raising false claims for being bullied by the soldiers. The People Power Party earlier complained about the military ploy to block it from grabbing power.

The Nation

[blaze]

younghusband>> If I'm not mistaken calling the high court a kangaroo court or give the judges different names as well as to critic their decisions is a crime. Perhaps you should tone down your acid.

Yes you a very right about that. All this negatives and misconceptions spewing from younghusband’s keyboard are starting to spread beyond cyberspace. I hope he is ready for the fallout.

good to see we are back on topic. And just curious- could you elaborate on the warning you have issued- that the rest of us who disagree with your perceptions can know just what we're dealing with?

Well on the courts they certainly appear very touchy on challenges to their rulings. There was a big statement as I recall before the TRT ruling came down to attack the court you could find yourself in jail. Similar things happened to some people when the EC 3 went to jail when the courts felt they were being disrespected. As I recall Chuwit caught some heat just by bringing a bag lunch to the EC3 at jail they day they went in. Insulting the courts is like standing on thin ice on a hot summer day.

John I really think you should clarify that last statement- it wasn't a warning or, as George inferred, a threat. You have made a statement of fact- you said that YH's posts have gone beyond cyberspace.

Where have they gone that he now can expect 'fallout'?

And more important, how do YOU know this?

If you were just saying something for effect or hadn't thought through the ramifications of what you were saying- that's fine- we all do that- but given the times- a statement like that needs some explanation.

[John K]

Blaze

I would have to go back and find the TRT ruling thread but in one of the initial posts the court said anyone criticizing the ruling or the court would be in contempt of court. They said the same thing about other rulings including the EC 3 where Chuwit stepped over the line with his antics at the entrance of the jail when the 3 were being lead into the jail. There were 2 others too at the same time the stepped out of bounds. Comparing the two I think Younghusband went further than Chuwit by implying they were a Kangaroo court. Again this is from memory but now you know what two threads to look in.

Edited November 8, 2007 by John K

[TAWP]

No-one has to send anything to anyone - this site is monitored already.

[John K]

A few things are going on that may require some piecework to understand what they mean.

A few days ago Sonthi indicated that another coup could happen. The reason given was if the same situation occurred that lead to the first coup another coup was likely.

Sonthi also recently had a meeting with the EC.

Today Sonthi had a early morning meeting with the CNS.

Starting to put the pieces together I see the following:

If the PPP wins the election once again by vote buying and the EC fails to disqualify them for that or other reasons including working with the 111 banned people, I can see another coup. I truly feel Sonthi will not let Thaksin sneak his way back to being the PM to continue raping the country. However if the PPP wins fairly he will not stand in the way.

[hammered]

A few things are going on that may require some piecework to understand what they mean.

A few days ago Sonthi indicated that another coup could happen. The reason given was if the same situation occurred that lead to the first coup another coup was likely.

Sonthi also recently had a meeting with the EC.

Today Sonthi had a early morning meeting with the CNS.

Starting to put the pieces together I see the following:

If the PPP wins the election once again by vote buying and the EC fails to disqualify them for that or other reasons including working with the 111 banned people, I can see another coup. I truly feel Sonthi will not let Thaksin sneak his way back to being the PM to continue raping the country. However if the PPP wins fairly he will not stand in the way.

Gen Sonthis words can also be seen at a different level of why vote for a party that may get overthrown. It is a wasted vote.

[John K]

A few things are going on that may require some piecework to understand what they mean.

A few days ago Sonthi indicated that another coup could happen. The reason given was if the same situation occurred that lead to the first coup another coup was likely.

Sonthi also recently had a meeting with the EC.

Today Sonthi had a early morning meeting with the CNS.

Starting to put the pieces together I see the following:

If the PPP wins the election once again by vote buying and the EC fails to disqualify them for that or other reasons including working with the 111 banned people, I can see another coup. I truly feel Sonthi will not let Thaksin sneak his way back to being the PM to continue raping the country. However if the PPP wins fairly he will not stand in the way.

Gen Sonthis words can also be seen at a different level of why vote for a party that may get overthrown. It is a wasted vote.

I can agree with that.

One very little subtle change I did note. On the home page of the Bangkok post at the 10:19 time stamp, when I first looked at it, it said CNS. Later it was edited to say Junta. Just a reminder about the Bangkok post.

[hammered]

A few things are going on that may require some piecework to understand what they mean.

A few days ago Sonthi indicated that another coup could happen. The reason given was if the same situation occurred that lead to the first coup another coup was likely.

Sonthi also recently had a meeting with the EC.

Today Sonthi had a early morning meeting with the CNS.

Starting to put the pieces together I see the following:

If the PPP wins the election once again by vote buying and the EC fails to disqualify them for that or other reasons including working with the 111 banned people, I can see another coup. I truly feel Sonthi will not let Thaksin sneak his way back to being the PM to continue raping the country. However if the PPP wins fairly he will not stand in the way.

Gen Sonthis words can also be seen at a different level of why vote for a party that may get overthrown. It is a wasted vote.

I can agree with that.

One very little subtle change I did note. On the home page of the Bangkok post at the 10:19 time stamp, when I first looked at it, it said CNS. Later it was edited to say Junta. Just a reminder about the Bangkok post.

People go on about the nation being bias which it is but at least it is open. All Thai newspapers take sides some just dont admit it or keep it more subtle. Some of the Thai ones have a lot more influence too.

[John K]

EC probes alleged vote-buying in Ratchaburi

The Election Commission has launched an investigation into a vote-buying case in Ratchaburi and is reviewing more than 60 complaints about money politics in the Northeast, EC member Somchai Juengprasert said Wednesday.

"Parties and politicians must stop an old habit of buying votes because the EC is serious about cracking down on campaign violations," he said.

Somchai said the Ratchaburi case took place in Damnoen Saduak district where authorities uncovered evidence that canvassers paid money to constituents and took their identification cards as collateral in exchange for their votes.

"Some witnesses said they were instructed by canvassers to blame rival candidates for paying them," he said.

The Nation

[hammered]

EC probes alleged vote-buying in Ratchaburi

The Election Commission has launched an investigation into a vote-buying case in Ratchaburi and is reviewing more than 60 complaints about money politics in the Northeast, EC member Somchai Juengprasert said Wednesday.

"Parties and politicians must stop an old habit of buying votes because the EC is serious about cracking down on campaign violations," he said.

Somchai said the Ratchaburi case took place in Damnoen Saduak district where authorities uncovered evidence that canvassers paid money to constituents and took their identification cards as collateral in exchange for their votes.

"Some witnesses said they were instructed by canvassers to blame rival candidates for paying them," he said.

The Nation

In some ways I hope they do have a red card fest. It may be the only way to send the message loud and clear. Of course unlilely to happen in the realpolitik of Thailand but it would be fun to see.