Oh yeah,

as eek suggested, sit down with your dad and think of potential problems that could happen, and make a plan for what you would do if that happened.

but don't present it to your dad only in terms of the risks -- also make sure to look at what you stand to gain: independence, education, possibly learning a new language, life experience, confidence in yourself.

everything in life has risk -- it's just calculating where you stand more to gain than to lose, minimizing what risk you do have, and going for it!

Take a look at my PM - I've given you the name of someone at Thammasat your Dad can call in advance

oh, i think the biggest risk in thailand, as qualtrough was saying (wow, I'm agreeing with qualtrough -- this is a historical occasion! :-P are the roads. The roads are dangerous. I travel by train or plane when I can, to avoid the roads, never take night busses anywhere, and have a few seconds chat with taxi drivers before getting in to see if they are visibly drunk or high (a lot of them are, unfortunately).

Oh..you know, that one hadn't occurred to me. I am hoping to take a break in Ko Lanta soon and I was considering taking the night bus from cm-bkk and/or bus from bkk-krabi. Just because i fancied the long route (as crazy as that sounds). So night bus is actually unsafe/ bad idea as solo female?

It seems i still have a lot to realise.

oh, i think the biggest risk in thailand, as qualtrough was saying (wow, I'm agreeing with qualtrough -- this is a historical occasion! :-P are the roads. The roads are dangerous. I travel by train or plane when I can, to avoid the roads, never take night busses anywhere, and have a few seconds chat with taxi drivers before getting in to see if they are visibly drunk or high (a lot of them are, unfortunately).

Oh..you know, that one hadn't occurred to me. I am hoping to take a break in Ko Lanta soon and I was considering taking the night bus from cm-bkk and/or bus from bkk-krabi. Just because i fancied the long route (as crazy as that sounds). So night bus is actually unsafe/ bad idea as solo female?

It seems i still have a lot to realise.

Hi Eek!

In my humble opinion (you've been in Thailand much longer than I have so you might have a better idea than me), I don't think it's a sexual harassment issue, more of a road safety issue that would apply to guys and girls. I met a guidebook writer whose company specified by contract that they were not allowed to take night buses, because of the risk, and I think a few other organisations have that policy. I find the Thai driving rather bad, and it can hardly improve at night, with a maybe-sleepy driver, maybe-on-yaba-to-stay-awake driver, never mind all the other drivers on the road.

oh, i think the biggest risk in thailand, as qualtrough was saying (wow, I'm agreeing with qualtrough -- this is a historical occasion! :-P are the roads.

I wasn't aware that my opinions were that controversial

oh, i think the biggest risk in thailand, as qualtrough was saying (wow, I'm agreeing with qualtrough -- this is a historical occasion! :-P are the roads.

I wasn't aware that my opinions were that controversial

I might be mistaking you for someone else, but I have vague memories of a great slag-off at some point. Either way, what you posted here made good sense.

Hi Eek!

In my humble opinion (you've been in Thailand much longer than I have so you might have a better idea than me), I don't think it's a sexual harassment issue, more of a road safety issue that would apply to guys and girls. I met a guidebook writer whose company specified by contract that they were not allowed to take night buses, because of the risk, and I think a few other organisations have that policy. I find the Thai driving rather bad, and it can hardly improve at night, with a maybe-sleepy driver, maybe-on-yaba-to-stay-awake driver, never mind all the other drivers on the road.

Ahh ok. ty!

(btw..only been here for almost exactly one year, so still very much clueless on SO many things. I have a sneaky feeling that I will remain clueless for a long time, just maybe less clueless. Actually, I realise the more i learn, the less i know!)

Similar to Boo's comments, there is no need to engage in chitchat with the driver!!! Especially if you are alone at night and you pick up a cab on Sukhumvit (Bangkok) and you get the same old questions... You married? You have baby? You have boyfriend? etc etc. Fiddle with your phone, call someone,ieven if it's just your landline and you talk to yourself if it's late and there's no one home! (I'm not really crazy, honest guv, as they take her away kicking and screaming to the Psychiatric Hospital!)

Also, if you're a bit worried, there is no need to get out of the cab exactly in front of your house (if it's down a dark small soi like ours!), you can get out nearby and walk by yourself Of course with your keys ready to gouge somebody's eyes out and your Karate kick ready to kick somebody in the heebie jeebies!! Go Charlies Angels Go!

If they take you away to the psychiatric hospital for that, then they will be carting me off along with you!

Hey EEK (great AVatar by the way )

What transport do you reckon they would cart us away in eh? Heaven forbid it would be a Taxi!!!

What transport do you reckon they would cart us away in eh? Heaven forbid it would be a Taxi!!!

Or a night bus!!

thanks for all replies regarding my sister question..

deckx

I'd like to offer my two cents for Jorinda and other young women traveling solo to Thailand.

I have lived in Thailand for 4 years as a single, Western woman. I can appreciate the comments on this thread, but people have to understand that young women will be YOUNG, SINGLE (without a husband), and do NOT speak THAI. I also object to the knee-jerk racist label thrust upon people who are trying to define their experiences as a foreign woman in a gender specific and cultural-laden environment, in the appropriate sub-forum.

Most taxis are generally safe, but there are some issues to be aware of to stay safe as a single woman in Thailand. This should be considered with care, because being culturally appropriate is key to staying safe, but usually not obvious to the newbie Western female, hence the importance of HONEST and OPEN discussion of this issue here.

The truth is that it can be safe with no incidents whatsoever, but there are also many incidents of sexual harassment for women travellers, especially THAI WOMEN and other Asian females. In fact, I've learned how to stay safe and heeded the warnings from THAI WOMEN themselves. If this was such a non-issue, we wouldn't have a list of appropriate behavior to observe in the first place, and tried and tested strategies of what to do in a difficult situation. Part of the issue stems from cultural cues and perceptions about gender, morals, advantage and disadvantage, and part from plain governance, such as the lack of reliable taxi license regulation and overall transport safety. I think that is plenty to warrant a good solo-travel strategy in Thailand, and certainly the question and discussion on this thread, FROM ALL EXPERIENCES, thank you.

I've had a few great experiences in Bangkok taxis, innumerable frustrating ones, and a couple of very scary, close calls. The close calls also came after I was a veteran of Bangkok taxis, so you can decide for yourself what the odds are; I personally don't care.

Conventional wisdom:

sit in the back seat, as a single woman you do not want to give off any unintended messages by sitting in the front. THAI WOMEN DON'T DO IT.

If you go to a trendy club and are wearing your trendy clothing around trendy people, COVER UP when you get in your taxi at night; Most taxi drivers are not trendy, and will perceive you in the glare of their own context, not the one you just left. Tuck away a silk shawl or scarf in your bag that you can use to cover your shoulders and chest for the trip back home at night. If you are wearing a mini skirt, consider bringing a very large shawl.

Make sure your cell phone is amply charged before you go out at night, with plenty of money on it. Consider this a necessity - as important as having enough spending money or looking good. The phone can also help you when you the driver gets lost, doesn't read maps, and doesn't understand your Thai, no matter how conscientious and valiant your effort; you may also be speaking a different dialect, anyway.

You should have a couple of people with whom you have an agreement with in advance, that you can call at any time in case things get weird inside a taxi. If things get dicey and it is a male Thai friend who can convey status on the phone, all the better. If you need to call someone and they don't pick up the phone, FAKE a conversation. Things you should be saying is where you are, where you are going, and the number of the taxi on the side of the door. It would help if you could say these numbers in Thai, but honestly just making a phone call to someone when in the taxi to make it obvious that someone is waiting for you, is very helpful.

Maintain a forceful, assured attitude when in a taxi alone at night. No small talk, no laughing, no nothing! You are not looking for new friends and definitely not new cultural experiences late at night in a taxi, so just blunt it. Don't be hostile, but don't be friendly either.

Be aware of how you are perceived or what image you may be presenting at your point of pick-up. Who is putting you in the taxi and from where are you departing?

If there is an issue late at night - which eventually as a single woman there will be - stay calm, stay focused but definite in your actions, and call a few well-chose people. The phone is your best friend at that point.

Many Thai women also go out of their way to choose elderly taxi drivers at night. And quite honestly, a fair amount of Thai women don't go out after 10 or 11 at night alone, so we are challenging social mores when we are simply out alone, day or night, but especially at night.

In 4 years, I've had 3 very serious incidents in Bangkok taxis. I never took a taxi alone at night in the Southern areas, because I made it a point to party very near to where I stayed, and made sure the walk back was out in the open and safe. In one case on Koh Samet, I actually took the longer and darker back road because I didn't like the looks of the way some guys seemed to be hanging around the beach aimlessly. Paranoid? - maybe, but that's probably why I haven't had more incidents.

Do not drink with Thai males alone, especially those that you don't know. If you have only met them on this trip, or have only known them as casual acquaintances - which are the majority unless you have met their friends and family - then YOU DON'T KNOW THEM.

Thailand is a beautiful country, with many beautiful people. However, SEA in general is rife with cultural and gender-specific signals, which differ vastly from our own cultural understanding and signals. It is very important that young women and men stay aware of this very significant FACT.

Have fun, but be informed.

It's just been on international news that a woman was raped and killed by a British taxi driver - if you all think Thai people are more dangerous than any other culture I despair... it happens everywhere unfortunately - but not often and posters on this forum have shown their support for the OP and answered her questions regarding safety

That's right - it's been reported; that's the difference, and that's the reason for threads like this one and open comments free of intimidation and veiled censorship. No need to despair, Seonai, just read my words.

And as an added example: New York is an international city, with most of the taxi drivers from other cultures, some of which are more culturally strict and male dominated than Thailand regarding "appropriate" gender roles.

I have been on innumerable long taxi rides, late at night, far distances, by myself, and NEVER once had a problem, with taxi drivers from diverse backgrounds such as Morocco, Sudan, Pakistan, and India, to name a few. The big difference were taxi license regulations and enforcements.

Whereas, in those named countries, I'm very certain that I would've encountered issues as a single women alone in a taxi at night, to say the least. Is this reality based on actual cultural context, or is this a matter of simplistic stereotyping as you seem to assert? Would you like to challenge me on this?

Please do not attempt to brand me with crude control mechanisms such as asserting racism or cultural insensitivity, because you will simply not be able to get away with it with me.

*Unless we are talking about outright censorship, the control mechanism of the desperate.

Edited October 31, 200718 yr by kat

Hey Kat was that directed at me??? God. I totally understand what you are saying but I don't understand you having a go at me ? Geez

and what's all that stuff about branding you?

God I thought we were all kind of civil here

I am saying that the way I manage my life with Thai taxi drivers is cool, I don't have probs

Honestly guys I have never in my life had a problem with a Thai taxi driver, never, - as I said before it's about language... if you can speak Thai in a proper way the driver will understand you. If you can't... use methods like Boo's ... it's straight up

Honestly guys I have never in my life had a problem with a Thai taxi driver, never, - as I said before it's about language... if you can speak Thai in a proper way the driver will understand you. If you can't... use methods like Boo's ... it's straight up

Your experiences don't invalidate others, sorry to inform you of that.

To paraphrase SBK.

Her indoors is Thai. Her Thai language skills are pretty good. She has previously had problems.

EDIT Sorry got BOO and SBK confused

Edited November 1, 200718 yr by percy2

SEA in general is rife with cultural and gender-specific signals, which differ vastly from our own cultural understanding and signals. It is very important that young women and men stay aware of this very significant FACT.....

....Unless we are talking about outright censorship, the control mechanism of the desperate.

kat you are such a good written communicator, thank you for saying what i never manage to say quite as well.

Edited November 1, 200718 yr by girlx

Her indoors is Thai.

percy you have used this word more than once- what are you trying to say is "indoors"?!

Honestly guys I have never in my life had a problem with a Thai taxi driver, never, - as I said before it's about language... if you can speak Thai in a proper way the driver will understand you. If you can't... use methods like Boo's ... it's straight up

I'm sorry if that came across too strong, and seemed as if I was having a go at you, but I was responding to your comments. This is a subject I feel strongly about, and I don't think it is fair to brand someone as a racist or as culturally insensitive to honestly discuss - and in this case pragmatically - the very real and distinct gender and cultural differences regarding women and cultural mores.

I agree with a lot of Kat's advice (in fact, I got the "bring a shawl to cover up with after clubbing" idea from her originally).

I'm more cautious with taxis now than I use to be. At some point it dawned on me that only a little piece of paper keeps "taking a taxi late at night" from being "riding in a car with a strange man late at night". I had one taxi driver in Thailand start out a late night conversation with a slightly leering "are you drunk?" -- let's just say I sobered up really fast at that point, and made a serious effort to appear as sober and as "not going to take any shit from you" as possible. I once got caught in town on KPG after dark, and had to take a taxi back to the other side of the island -- the driver went through an unfamiliar road, through the jungle -- I was scared shitless, and I swored I'd never, ever, take a taxi after dark by myself again there. But these trips were definitely exceptions, not something that happened routinely.

But still -- I've gotten sexually harassed a lot more at home than in my time in Thailand. Most of the really aggressive and annoying sexual attention I received in Thailand was from Arab and African guys when I wandered down to lower Suk for some hummus and shish taouk (yum!) Some of the Arab guys would stare at me like they both hated me and wanted to fuc_k me, and the African guys were always trying to chat me up as I walked by, and could be really annoying.

Edited November 1, 200718 yr by canadiangirl

Her indoors is Thai.

percy you have used this word more than once- what are you trying to say is "indoors"?!

"Her indoors" is english slang for wife or long time partner , I guess significant other would cover it.

Similar to "she who shouts loudest" "she who must be obeyed" "Trouble and strife" terms of endearment.

Sorry for any confusion.

Cheers

funny that everyone got hung up on the taxi issue BUT; i live in a mid east country for 20+ yrs; taxi drivers are often of the minority group (especially saturdays when the other group dont drive or work) which already presents itself to being an oppurtunity for problems ... i take taxis infrequently, my daughter and friends do taxis all the time.... the amount of stories ive heard makes u think that taxi drivers automatically assume that if u are a single female in the night then u are easy game ... doesnt matter if u are from the country or a tourist.... night time + ordering a taxi means that u are fair game, easy targets....

during the day, while i get the regualr macho mid east comments (when i mention that i have a jeoulous thai husband they always ask me what size he is and if he satisfies me), and to complain to a chauvinistic taxi company, well, accredited licensed numbered doesnt do sh**... im the woman, i'm at fault....

my daughter has to travel in uniform, girl soldiers with guns or the required mace sprayer are still easy targets trust me...

so the rule seems to be that taxi + night = problems for young seemingly innocent girls/women any where in the world (never took a taxi in the states so i dont know how it is there but )...

we travelled with my daughter in to bangkok, and she was by far more street wise then me and my thai (country bumpkin) husband... she walked with purpose, she gave withering looks to all the 'viroom' including those in my husband's muu baan , she always knew where she was, she just gave off vibes of 'city street smarts'... her gut feelings were more tuned then mine, and she has a mean elbow....

forgot to mention that my ex had the same picture that the OP's father had: rape, hassles, date drugs, whatever (but then again he didn't like me marring a thai and he has worked with thai workers so he knows the 'mao' scenerio very well but not thai people in general)

good luck

bina

israel

I just remembered this thread from a while ago.

Woman attacked by Bangkok Taxi driver, arm and legs broken

Woman attacked by taxi driver

A BANGKOK taxi driver rammed his vehicle into his passenger after attempting to rob her, breaking her legs and an arm, police said Monday.

Lee Yan Chuan, a Chinese woman, was left lying on the roadside, where she was found by a passer-by around dawn on Monday, said police spokesman Maj. Gen. Pongsaphat Pongcharoen.

The attack was the second involving a taxi driver in two weeks in the Thai capital. A Japanese flight attendant was shot in the stomach on Nov. 26, allegedly by the driver of a taxi she had hired, and dumped on a street. She was hospitalized and returned to Japan last week.

Lee, 39, hired the car in central Bangkok sometime late Sunday or early Monday to go a few blocks away.

Pongsaphat said the driver drove her outside the city, apparently to rob her.

"She resisted and jumped out of the car," Pongsaphat told The Associated Press. "The cab then turned around and came back to hit her, breaking both her legs and her arm."

No other details were available. It was not immediately known where Lee was from originally, or whether she is a resident or a tourist.

No arrests have been made, Pongsaphat said.

--AP 2003-12-15

Cheers

Percy that is really unhelpful as incidents happen to women all over the world in taxis - if the OP reassures her father with some of the suggestions made here and PMs I think all will be well

Always get a genuine meter taxi and if you suspect something odd, tell him to stop and get out, many meter taxis in BKK are not really meter taxis you have to check

Percy that is really unhelpful

"Truth never damages a cause that is just."

- Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) GANDHI

Indian political and spiritual leader (1869-1948)

Percy's report is also 4 years old.

I think that discussing the dangers of taxi drivers is important but to discuss them exclusion of everything else is doing the OP a disservice. She most certainly is not getting her questions answered.

The comments on this thread that the experience for solo women in taxis is the same all over the world, is so broad in its generality as to be completely meaningless.

It rains all over the world, so it is the same everywhere, right?

A taxi ride for single women in Dubai is the same as a taxi ride in New York?

Heck, for that matter, a taxi ride in Sharjah of the UAE is the same as Dubai, UAE?

A taxi ride is not even the same for women and people in Boston as it is for the same in DC of the United States, but miraculously on TV, every living detail becomes sanitized in the magic reasoning of "it's all the same." That is a very familiar line of reasoning on this site.

Seonai: I admit that the UK seems to have a problem with their taxis, but that is a far cry from saying "it is the same all over the world." In actual fact, it is not the same all over the world. It is not the same in New York, or Zurich, or Paris, or Stockholm, Seoul, Lagos, and a slew of other places. That is not to say that these places do or do not have problems, but they are not the same. And many of the taxi rape cases in the UK involve unlicensed minicabs and fake taxis, and there is a movement to enforce stricter licensing arrangements overall. Also, in regards to Percy's link above, there was a rash of news stories on violence in BKK taxis, so we all know this one is not an isolated case, and as expats (present or former) in Thailand, we should all know by now that rape and sexual harassment is mostly not reported there because it brings embarrassment and humiliation upon the women. I cannot believe I even have to make this argument here, when you can ask any Thai woman in BKK about the precautions she takes about getting into a taxi alone.

I am not saying every taxi ride is dangerous, I am merely commenting on the confluence of cultural perceptions on gender, advantage, impunity, blame and lack of regulations and enforcements, all issues that are widely documented not a figment of anyone's imagination, except those who assert they don't exist.

It comes down to a combination of male-dominated culture (which by simple definition, holds women at fault or has a higher burden of proof for crimes against her), or bad license screening and enforcements, and/or a combination of both. In New York, the price of a taxi license and medallion is so incredibly high and rigorous, that it serves as an added enforcement. Even with the plethora of "gypsy" or informal cabs, the occurrence of violence is usually against the cab drivers in NY, not the passengers.

Bina: The same as above, but in addition, you are using Israel as a comparative basis (see definition above of male dominated culture), you were in Thailand as a tourist, and from the sound of your story, you were riding in taxis attended by your husband, your daughter was there for a short time, and by your own admission have not taken a taxi in New York, so how can you state with any degree of accuracy: "it is all the same everywhere"?

http://www.taxiblog.co.uk/1184/taxi-driver...ping-passenger/

http://www.taxiblog.co.uk/1208/trafford-ta...guilty-of-rape/

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_an...icle2781335.ece

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle1701337.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,1...,868508,00.html

http://health.yahoo.com/news/ap/dubai_kidnapping_trial.html

http://secretdubai.blogspot.com/2005/11/sh...ge-emirate.html

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...tory_id=8680941

http://newyorktaxinews.the-cabby.com/112/c...ssault-suspect/

http://newyorktaxinews.the-cabby.com/9/new...n-absolute-gem/

http://www.thelocal.se/6588/20070304/

Edited November 2, 200718 yr by kat

Percy's report is also 4 years old.

I think that discussing the dangers of taxi drivers is important but to discuss them exclusion of everything else is doing the OP a disservice. She most certainly is not getting her questions answered.

Uhm, I think I did address her question quite throughly in my first post, and am now addressing the comments of others and the general direction of discourse - fairly normal on a discussion thread.

OK, Kat, since you want to focus on the taxi issue. One question. You lived in Bangkok for 4 years, right? Lets say you took a taxi a minimum of 4 times a week. That is about 91 taxi rides a year. 365 for 4 years. And you had 3 serious incidents. Scary, yes. But an epidemic? The only thing to cause concern for a young woman travelling alone in Thailand?

Lets face reality here, Thai women are targeted for sexual assault far more often than western women, yes, sheer numbers but also the reality that to assault a western women is to possibly engender some serious retribution whereas to assault a Thai women is often risk free. Yes, the culture perpetuates the myth that the women are asking for it but economics rule in this country and as we have seen, the case of assaults on foreign females often generate huge amounts of negative publicity for this country.

I think by focusing on this to the sole exclusion of everything else is to do the OP a grave disservice. Yes, there are things to be aware of but to perpetuate a fear of taxi drivers instead of focusing on the very real dangers of everything else around is just sheer foolishness.