Actually, I agree with your first two paragraphs, and have even said the same things in my own words in my first post. I elaborated on this point when it was dismissed as a non-fact and non-issue. I also alluded to other safety issues besides taxis, and can easily switch to those at length as well, if you or the op would like. I provided perspective, but offered the information so that young women can have fun but be informed.

Where I disagree with you wholeheartedly, is to say that focusing on taxis is foolishness. There is no foolishness when it comes to informing and educating women on their personal safety, and if you haven't noticed by now, taxi rides can be both a source of much needed safety and also extreme danger for women travelling alone, hence the focus.

There seems to be a trend here to take only part of what I say and assume it to be the entire thing. Nowhere did I say that taxis were safe. I only stated I personally had never had a problem --to then be roundly attacked for stating my own personal experiences.

Also, if you reread the entire paragraph you will see my point:

I think by focusing on this to the sole exclusion of everything else is to do the OP a grave disservice. Yes, there are things to be aware of but to perpetuate a fear of taxi drivers instead of focusing on the very real dangers of everything else around is just sheer foolishness.

Actually, I agree with your first two paragraphs, and have even said the same things in my own words in my first post. I elaborated on this point when it was dismissed as a non-fact and non-issue. I also alluded to other safety issues besides taxis, and can easily switch to those at length as well, if you or the op would like. I provided perspective, but offered the information so that young women can have fun but be informed.

Where I disagree with you wholeheartedly, is to say that focusing on taxis is foolishness. There is no foolishness when it comes to informing and educating women on their personal safety, and if you haven't noticed by now, taxi rides can be both a source of much needed safety and also extreme danger for women travelling alone, hence the focus.

ok, hang on - where am I attacking you? Who is attacking you for your personal experiences? In fact, it could easily be stated that others on this thread were attacked for stating their personal experiences, since you mention it.

I don't get it - does deference to royalty now extend to mods?

Well, I do recall being told I was wrong. and then, when stating that I was pointing out my own experiences being attacked again.

So, yes, I am feeling a bit fed up, and not posting as a moderator in anyway, but as a human being. Hope thats ok.

Yes, that is very ok, thanks for your honesty, SBK. I'm going to take a break and go to sleep.

Get some rest, young lady.

I don't recall the op asking for advice only on taxis & I don't recall anyone saying that they were totally safe, in fact many people, myself included have given advice on how to avoid a difficult situation with taxi drivers based on our own experiences & practices. The op will have to decide whether to get a taxi at night alone or ever, as some of the posts have sggested that she will have nothing but trouble in any taxi at any time.

So op, take advice but as I said in my first post, if we listened to all the things that "might" or "could" go wrong or happen to you as a lone female travelling in a strange country then we, none of us, would ever leave the safety of our own homes & countries, so use your own judgement.

As for your father, sorry I personally think you need to step out of his control, you are over the age of consent & if he doesn't trust your judgement then you should be adressing the reasons why rather than finding out how to get around his fears. I would be mightily offended if either of my parents didn't trust me enough to follow my own path & try to put guilt in the way of me expereincing something as great as travel.

As for the article from percy, well I see nothing wrong with posting it, it is out of date but as we all know, it does happen.

kat get a grip;

being a woman by rights means that we are more vulnerable; i definately would prefer that there were more female taxi drivers, but wait: in boston many years ago there was a team of male/female picking up hitchhikers and doing nasty deeds so, u cant trust anyone anywhere....

oh, and i grew up in d.c. .... and my sister in boston north end can tell u taxi stories that would make your hair stand on end, and she's super city wise (works with inner city types)... so there u have it...

being a woman sucks doesnt it.... all except for zena the woman warrior, mulan et al....

totally off the subject of the OP's original question....

bina

You forgot Wonder Woman, bina. She not only kicks some ass but she gets to do it looking sexy and with perfect hair

Seems to me that this taxi debate has gotten us all pretty much off topic. (BTW..before I try to return to topic...if my memory serves the incident Percy posted later proved to be a fabrication on the part of a mentally disturbed tourist.)

OP, in addition to soem of the other advise you've gotten here, it might help to show your father the Lonely Planet guide section on "Women Travelers" and other travel books which address the point...they will all affirm that comparatively speaking Thailand is a pretty safe place for women. That's comparatively speaking, meaning as compared to other countries.

Of course, it's an unfortunate fact of life that women are subject to threats and harassments of a type men are not...pretty much everywhere. And the solo female traveler needs to take special precautions that men do not, again, pretty mush everywhere. Comparatively speaking, though, Thailand is not unusually bad in this regard, and certainly not the way your father apparently thinks it is.

kat get a grip;

being a woman by rights means that we are more vulnerable; i definately would prefer that there were more female taxi drivers, but wait: in boston many years ago there was a team of male/female picking up hitchhikers and doing nasty deeds so, u cant trust anyone anywhere....

oh, and i grew up in d.c. .... and my sister in boston north end can tell u taxi stories that would make your hair stand on end, and she's super city wise (works with inner city types)... so there u have it...

being a woman sucks doesnt it.... all except for zena the woman warrior, mulan et al....

totally off the subject of the OP's original question....

bina

Actually, this subject is very pertinent to the OP's question and title of this thread: "Travelling as a Young Woman in Thailand", as far as I and anyone else can tell - including personal experience and the daily news media - transport and solo travelling is a big element in this question and taxis are central to it because it can be where a woman is most vulnerable when she thinks she is safe, so no I am not off topic, and actually my first post didn't focus exclusively on taxis, but the criticism did.

But, as long as we are on the topic: I agree with you about hellish taxis in Boston (although the "hellish" experience has varying degrees in meaning when held up to substantiated comparisons), and to a much lesser degree in DC, but completely different to experiences in New York. I have LIVED in all of the cities above including Bangkok as a single woman with a young lifestyle (going out to party, staying out late, and relying on taxis to get home late at night). And yes, I agree, now that we have established as ludicrous the statement that it is "all the same everywhere", we have indeed "gotten a grip" on this thread and I can move on to other safety concerns for women in THAILAND, rather than defending my judgment and the right to do so.

Seems to me that this taxi debate has gotten us all pretty much off topic. (BTW..before I try to return to topic...if my memory serves the incident Percy posted later proved to be a fabrication on the part of a mentally disturbed tourist.) ...

Your memory is incorrect. Percy's article refers to a Chinese tourist that was run over and left for dead on the freeway, around the same time that a Japanese flight attendant was shot in the stomach by a taxi driver and left for dead. The mentally deranged woman that falsely cried rape was a different incident.

Additional link to Percy's story:

Tourist beaten, robbed and run over by taxi driver

Published on Dec 16, 2003

A taxi driver early yesterday morning viciously attacked and robbed his female Chinese passenger on a motorway in Bangkok, leaving her unconscious on the roadside with a broken pelvis and leg injuries.

After undergoing two operations, tourist Li Yajuan, 38, told police the driver hit her as he attempted to steal her belongings before running her down with |his car as she fled with her handbag.

Passers-by found Li on the inbound motorway at 6.15am and alerted police.

*Now that I've clarified this issue with taxis and glib statements, I will be posting another post soon on my perspective on the broader issues of women's safety in Thailand in a minute. Please refer to EVERYTHING I've said in my posts as perspective, not just the issues that are blown out of proportion due to criticism (i.e. - I never said this was an epidemic, provided perspective on my experience, etc.)

Edited November 2, 200718 yr by kat

I'd like to expand on some points I mentioned in my post #41, and follow up on some well posted comments back there on transport. For the record, I lived in Thailand as a single woman for 4 years, travelled everywhere as a solo woman traveller and as a budget traveller or backpacker, much like the young tourists that come through. However, I wasn't a tourist, and that was earned after some hard lessons, that could've been much more costly if I was actually more naive and less savvy. I also had almost all young, single, female friends in Bangkok, and we were out on the town very frequently. I have no other interests here except for the safety of women, which means I am not employed or earn my livelihood from the tourist industry, I do not work for anyone who gains livelihood from advertising, I am not emotionally or financially invested through a Thai partner which could potentially affect my objectivity, and my lifestyle there was pertinent to many other young, single travellers.

I have mentioned previously that Thailand is a great place to visit, with many beautiful people inside and out, and many young people come and have fun. There is a great contingent of young people from around the world who regularly go to Bangkok University on a semester away and have a blast; I've partied with a number of them. But, they have the safety of their GROUP - a key word. However, it is important that women and young travellers understand that "everything is not the same everywhere", or that you will even understand all of the nuances and signals of a place that are all mostly in the background. It is like looking at another pattern underneath the one in the foreground: you will not be able to see anything differently unless your eyes have adjusted. Things are mostly safe, but misunderstandings and lack of perspective (especially for tourists in tourist areas) can turn a good time into something horribly wrong, which you want to avoid, because once things go wrong you really are on your own there, without much help from the police or security nets we take for granted in most Western societies.

Go out and have a good time, but try to party with other females in groups, and go home together in groups. That is what Thai women do. Also, do not drink with groups of Thai men that you do not know well, because that is a completely different signal than what you may think. You have to consider how you will be viewed in a culture that views actions differently than what your culture may take for granted.

As a few mentioned earlier in the thread, inter-provincial buses are another area where you need to be careful. There are tourist bus packages to high tourist areas such as the South that are known to be rife with burglaries and have known even more insidious actions such as gassing people, so I would be really careful on where you book your trips by bus. Khao San Road travel tickets have to be viewed and handled with care. The government buses are better, although I've been on a couple driven by apparently yaba-induced maniacs. If you have the means, you may want to book with Air Asia.

Travelling by train to inter-provincial destinations is much better.

The Lonely Planet is good as a rough guide, but that's about it. A lot of the information can fall out of date rapidly, and one of my most dangerous travel experiences as a solo woman traveller from Thailand to Cambodia was because of information that they did not give back then. So, it's good to get a number of different perspectives, and just be knowledgeable about your solo travel adventures ahead of time.

Do not assume that because people are foreigners they are trustworthy.

You also should chose your guesthouses carefully in terms of environment and guests, and look for rooms that have locks that can be bolted from the inside.

For the most part, it should be a safe experience in comparison to other places in SEA, but there are a few invisible rules that you need to be made aware of, and it should be fine.

Well, if the young woman in question has not travelled alone to foreign countries, Thailand is not the place to start. My advice is to find a travel partner. Do not travel alone and always have a cell phone and a back up plan and person to call if needed.

Edited November 2, 200718 yr by lannarebirth

I've given the OP the name of a senior lecturer at Thammsat University (American) so that she can team up with a Thai female 'escort' if she wishes. Good ponts Lannerebirth

Oh and can everyone please try to remember that Mods don't say everything they post as a moderator - sometimes we are just being ourselves... human beings just like everyone else

i just wanted to add a quick note:

a few years ago i read an excellent book on self-protection called "the gift of fear" by gavin de becker. i would highly recommend it to anyone, man or woman, who wants to travel alone and is concerned about security. (i get no kickpacks from the author or anything, i just think this is an excellent book)

it's about the role of intuition in preventing and surviving violent situations, and gives particular signs and signals to watch out for. his idea is that A LOT MORE is noticed by the subconcsious before it registers in your mind as danger -- all those niggling senses that something is wrong, little hints that we often don't listen to -- he tells you what to pay attention to, and that basically, humans are a lot better at predicting violence than we give ourselves credit for -- we just don't normally listen to our intuition about it.

sorry if my description makes it sound a bit new agey -- it's really not. the author did security for bill clinton, i think, and he knows his stuff.

anyways, just a suggestion.

On topic:

SBK, I am saying this as sweetly as I can because I do not want to offend you (I really don't know how this can come out without sounding horrible so.....)

If you are a LITTLE bit older and maybe not quite as eye catching as you used to be... you should recognise that someone younger is going to attract a heck of a lot more trouble here than you and their experiences and therefore opinions will differ GREATLY. The op is young... possibly petite and pretty and naive... the PERFECT TARGET for predators. Adivising her based on the experiences of an older person is not as helpful as you might think. When she gets here and encounters a whole different world than the one you described she will be shocked and surprised and probably pissed off. She will be treated differently than you, this is obvious. Try to remember that and don't shoot down GirlX's experiences and opinions so quickly (no matter how annoyingly she writes them). Her opinions should be of greater value to someone coming from the same background and age group. Your wise opinions are valued too but should be taken from the context they are given. Just to clarify, bad things can happen to anyone, but they definately have a higher chance of happening to people that fit the target profile: young, petite, pretty, naive.

To the ORIGINAL POSTER: Kat gave EXTREMELY good advice, every little thing she listed will help prevent a bad situation from taking place. But even all that is NOT a gaurantee of safety. But it will cut down the chances immensely.

When I was dating "good thai girls" they would absolutely refuse to take a taxi to come see me or go meet me at night, I would have to go pick them up. When I asked why... they all said something along the lines of "the taxi driver will rape me". I'm sure they were exageratting and using the term rape to cover a broad range of possible crimes but the point is, they felt it was extremely risky to take taxis alone at night in Bangkok as a young small pretty woman. Ok ok so this has nothing to do with foreigners right?

Moving along..... as someone who teaches self defence and self defence tactics and mental strategies I am always questioning foreign women I meet about their safety experiences here in Thailand. The 6 foot 2 white models all say this place is great, safest they have ever been. But the 5 foot 5 white girls all complained of constant problems and thought Bangkok was extremely dangerous. One of them admitted to being raped. I know exactly why there is such a difference of opinion: studies and interviews with hundreds of predators in U.S prisons almost all said the same thing. They look for an "easy" target. Easy equates to small and possibly meek. If they saw someone look strong and confident and ready to cause a problem they avoided them and looked for someone else. This isn't 100% of course but the point is, size does matter. Along with body language and the confdence you portray (even if its faked). Quick free lesson: when you feel threatened (eg. walking alone on a dark street and someone is coming towards you from the opposite direction) walk as tall as possible, shoulders back, look alert and confident and make casual eye contact when they are close enough to see it. The eye contact is important, our instinct when threatened is to look away from the eyes... do that and you just told him you are scared, scared means an easy target, one that won't resist too greatly. Make casual confident (not smiling and not threatening) eye contact that says "I see you seeing me seeing you and Im not shy about it at all".

You can say this isnt helping, but I think it is important:

A taxi driver beat my live in girlfriend (small petite Japanese) in the stomach from the front seat swinging into the back seat and crushed one of her ovaries because she didnt give him enough money when he was mugging her. This was at night when she was coming home to me near On Nut station.

A motorcycle taxi that only needed to go 2 minutes down the road took my (same) girlfriend out into deserted roads and going as fast as he could around corners tried to elbow her off so that he could loot her corpse on the side of the road when she hit the pavement at 100km/hr. She clung close to his back so his blows didnt have full effect and managed to stay on the bike until he was finally forced to stop at a light where she jumped off, threw money at him and ran away. This was in broad daylight.

Something far more terrible has happened to my girlfriend but I will not discuss it here.

My girlfriends friend (also small and Japanese) took a taxi to the factory she had to visit outside Bangkok for business. The driver stopped to get his friend and they took her out in themiddle of nowere and gang raped and beat her and left her for dead on the side of the road. She spent 2 months in the hospital and then went back to Japan. Actually there are lots of stories like this one happening to Japanese women, but I ill just list this one.

How about the Japanese flight attendant that got a taxi at the airport and was shorlty stabbed to death for her money as a finisher.

I do not hate all Thai people, neither do I think they are all bad. But is this country safe? NO FREAKING WAY. If you fit the profile you WILL be targetted. If you do not than good for you. But don't judge those that do as wrong, they will have a completely different experience than you.

Damian

Thats ok Damian, I am not offended. I first arrived in Thailand a petite 22 year old And am, actually, not completely fat nor elderly looking

I think the attitude one displays has alot to do with how one gets treated in this country (or any country for that matter--I had far more weirdos harrassing me as a shy and nervous but well-developed 13 year old than I ever did as a far less shy or nervous 18 year old). The submissive and nervous attitude will attract the predators far more than a confident "I can take care of myself" attitude. That said, some guys are just nutjobs and it doesn't really matter what your attitude, behavior or dress is, they probably don't even notice. They are just nutjobs.

That said, there are predators every where in the world and most young women really should have already developed the skills to deal with them. Where girls go wrong here is in either not trusting their gut instinct or in not being able to identify potential trouble through ignorance. So, although it sounds unfair, to be dressed in a provocative manner is an invitation to trouble. To be flirtatious or overly friendly with a Thai man is to send the completely wrong signals to someone who reads them far differently than a Western man would. And girls travelling should be equally aware that other travellers are often far more problematic than a Thai ever would be.

Well, if the young woman in question has not travelled alone to foreign countries, Thailand is not the place to start. My advice is to find a travel partner. Do not travel alone and always have a cell phone and a back up plan and person to call if needed.

I respectfully disagree. I think if a young woman, or anyone, takes sensible precautions that they should take anywhere they will likely have no problems here. In fact, I think they will be safer here than in many countries, and perhaps even safer depending on where them come from. Thousands upon thousands of women have visited here and comparatively few have come to grief.

studies and interviews with hundreds of predators in U.S prisons almost all said the same thing. They look for an "easy" target. Easy equates to small and possibly meek. If they saw someone look strong and confident and ready to cause a problem they avoided them and looked for someone else. This isn't 100% of course but the point is, size does matter. Along with body language and the confdence you portray (even if its faked). Quick free lesson: when you feel threatened (eg. walking alone on a dark street and someone is coming towards you from the opposite direction) walk as tall as possible, shoulders back, look alert and confident and make casual eye contact when they are close enough to see it. The eye contact is important, our instinct when threatened is to look away from the eyes... do that and you just told him you are scared, scared means an easy target, one that won't resist too greatly. Make casual confident (not smiling and not threatening) eye contact that says "I see you seeing me seeing you and Im not shy about it at all".

this is great advice, and something i have been practicing lately as i am a pretty shy person, but i am travelling alone in south america (where by thway there are also loads of horror stories about taxis) and have realized that the points you have made here are very important. i am pretty small, and often wear my hair in pigtails, act and dress girly etc. so this might explain why i am often targeted. making an effort to look and seem more like a bad ass has helped so far, even if it's just in my head!

Although a bit of a diversion form the original topic, there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread for personal safety in Thailand for women, and I recall past threads that also had some.

May I suggest pulling the various safety tips together and pinning them? Minus of course all the fruitless arguments about just how safe per se Thailand is or isn't, in comparison to wherever else!. Fact of life that women face security issues men do not, wherever they may be, and also that looking out for oneself in a foreign culture is more challenging than doing so at home, especially for a new arrival.

How about a new thread, instead--pinned, of course, where women (and guys) can post their safety tips for women in Thailand.

New pinned topic: Safety Tips for Women in Thailand

How about a new thread, instead--pinned, of course, where women (and guys) can post their safety tips for women in Thailand.

Great idea, but why not a either a combined list for men and women, or one for each?

Cause its the Ladies forum?

Minus of course all the fruitless arguments about just how safe per se Thailand is or isn't, in comparison to wherever else!.

Actually, that's an opinion not a fact, but thanks for your input.

As a matter of FACT, safety concerns, danger signals, and strategies are going to differ from one place to another. If we still have trouble acknowledging that here, then a generic, token, safety guide is what will be fruitless.

But hey - maybe you guys can model it on the detached nature of the Lonely Planet, by excluding the experiences of women who have actually been in danger.

How about a new thread, instead--pinned, of course, where women (and guys) can post their safety tips for women in Thailand.

New pinned topic: Safety Tips for Women in Thailand

That thread is great SBK. Thanks for being so responsive, and realistically inclusive.

Minus of course all the fruitless arguments about just how safe per se Thailand is or isn't, in comparison to wherever else!.

Actually, that's an opinion not a fact, but thanks for your input.

As a matter of FACT, safety concerns, danger signals, and strategies are going to differ from one place to another. If we still have trouble acknowledging that here, then a generic, token, safety guide is what will be fruitless.

But hey - maybe you guys can model it on the detached nature of the Lonely Planet, by excluding the experiences of women who have actually been in danger.

Kat,

I thjink you misundrestood my post.

I wasn't in any way implying that keeping safe in Thailand didn't involve Thailand-specific problems and measures. That's why the suggested pinned notice was safety tips for women in Thailand, not safety tips for women in general!

And I haven't seen anyone in this thread deny that there are differences from place to place.

What I was calling fruitless was the arguing about whether or not Thailand is, all things considered, more or less dangerous than other places. Strikes me as fruitless because (1) Obviously it depends on which other place one is comparing to and (2) regardless of how it does or doesn't rank compared to some other place, there are still risks here for women.

Holy Moly...what a discussion....I won't comment

But, did you all read the other topic the OP, Jorinda, opened about her study in Bangkok ? (studying international business and management at Thammasat University - I believe-)

Maybe that will help a bit with your comments.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=149395&hl=

LaoPo

that's what I started this post with... as in 'yes you have started this elsewhere'

I would like to hear your comments tho LaoPo

Ditto on Seonai's experience. Even if you don't have a Thai spouse, lie and say you do. And be sure to add he is from Nakhon Si Thammarat (or Surat Thani). The taxi drivers won't touch you with a 10 foot pole

All good advice on how to behave once you get here--bina gives excellent advice on how to reassure your dad as well.

Let me tell you the one thing that helped my parents when I left the US when I was 21. I asked them, do you trust my judgment? And when they answered yes, I asked them to continue to do so. I also contacted them regularly. And remember, this was before the days of email, IM, SMS and mobile phones. They worried but allowed me to be the adult that I am. Ask your parents for the same consideration.

Hello, this is my first post and I would like to say that I agree with the comments about saying you have a Thai spouse. I always sit in the front of Bangkok taxis for safety belt reasons and have some of my best Thai conversations with taxi drivers. I try to speak only in Thai even if it is a bit round the houses (eg trying to explain about former mining communities in UK which is not something I learn in Thai lessons!). We always seem to get on the topic of my Nakhon Si Thammarat partner (what is it about southern men?) and, apart from finding it really funny that a farang girl is with a Thai man, they are always super polite and helpful.

I'd like to add that I lived in Bangladesh as a development worker for 2 and a half years before coming to Thailand and in that time I had no end of problems with the local men. I am a confident girl but would never have sat in the front seat there and however conservatively dressed (local salwar kameez, even covering my head and face at times) I was regularly groped on the street and harassed verbally, including having a stalker for the best part of a year which was pretty scary. When I was with male colleagues, all such hassles stopped immediately. Unfortunately, many Bangladeshi men's experience of western women is largely from porn websites and western TV channels, so they do have a somewhat warped impression of us.

The best advice I can give is to try to be outwardly confident, be firm but polite if a man oversteps the boundaries of what is acceptable behaviour, and try to let them know that you have a local partner (having a little background prep is invaluable, eg. name and where he is from). It's best not to travel alone if you are drunk - that is when some friends of mine have had problems with taxis and motorcycle taxis here. Try not to take taxis from touristy areas but walk a little way away in the direction of the traffic flow so you are not obviously emerging from a bar, tourist site, etc. Cover your shoulders and chest area with a shawl to avoid any tempting white skin showing.

I am also Thai proportioned and I suppose could be construed as "cute" which would make me less intimidating than many taller farang girls. This is why I try to make it clear with a smile that I am not "available", have local friends, and that I know my way around Bangkok and the Thai language quite well (language and knowledge of the local area worked well for me in Bangladesh too).

Apart from that, I have to say that my impression, after travelling quite a bit in various parts of the world, is that Bangkok is much safer than many other big cities and that Thai men are pretty respectful. Getting drunk and not keeping your wits about you is about the biggest danger for most women (in any place). In my limited experience and maybe I am wrong here, my Thai girl friends are quite likely to be (like my Bangladeshi girl friends were) more in danger than western women.

I also started travelling when in my late teens and although my parents would like me closer to home, being an only child, they understand my need to explore the world. So on the one hand they sometimes worry about me, on the other hand they are very proud that I am making it in an alien culture and living a life which is much more interesting and different from many people. They come out here regularly and that has really helped them understand what I "see" in Thailand.

Sorry, this has gotten quite wordy. Just on a roll on this interesting topic. Maybe the poster can take advantage of this forum and meet up with some farang girls who are already here - plug into the network as it were.

welcome to the forum dottie.

welcome to the forum dottie.

Thank you! I have been a silent observer for quite some time ... ladies' forum always one of the best parts of TV. I just didn't want to get too much into the "leaping in" before I've got my thoughts sorted out and, despite being a confident girlie, am a bit shy about putting my opinions up here on the forum! Fear of getting shot down? Ah too late now ...