Boddhisattvas In Theravada

[chutai]

I was unaware of this until earlier today and would be interested in exploring further.

Any comments or further links on this subect will be appreciated. Ta.

"There is a wide-spread belief, particularly in the West, that the ideal of the Theravada, which they conveniently identify with Hinayana, is to become an Arahant while that of the Mahayana is to become a Bodhisattva and finally to attain the state of a Buddha. It must be categorically stated that this is incorrect."

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha126.htm

[chutai]

Sorry. The paragraph that I meant to quote :

"There are many Buddhists, both bhikkhus and laymen, in Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand and Cambodia which are regarded as Theravada countries, who take the vow or resolution to become Buddhas to save others. They are indeed Bodhisattvas at different levels of development. Thus one may see that in Theravada countries all are not Sravakas. There are Bodhisattvas as well."

[seonai]

Chutai I think this is a really interesting topic but feel a little rusty so will wait until others contribute. I have met Ven W. Rahula and hold him in the greatest esteem

[garro]

Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer

Ajahn Chah

[chutai]

Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer

Ajahn Chah

"Shariputra, ever since I attained Buddhahood I have through various causes and various similes widely expounded my teachings and have used countless expedient means to guide living beings and cause them to renounce attachments. Why is this? Because the Thus Come One is fully possessed by both expedient means and the paramita of wisdom."

The Expedient Means Chapter 2, Lotus Sutra

[IMA_FARANG]

Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer

Ajahn Chah

"Shariputra, ever since I attained Buddhahood I have through various causes and various similes widely expounded my teachings and have used countless expedient means to guide living beings and cause them to renounce attachments. Why is this? Because the Thus Come One is fully possessed by both expedient means and the paramita of wisdom."

The Expedient Means Chapter 2, Lotus Sutra

Perhaps all the means to an end are only games played by children? Can it be that when the goal is achieved (enlightenment?) nothing is attained but the true clarity of vision of what always was? At that point, don't all the names and descriptions become meaningless? Like a man who has made a long journey, and arrived at his destination, rest and become refreshed.

[chutai]

Perhaps all the means to an end are only games played by children? Can it be that when the goal is achieved (enlightenment?) nothing is attained but the true clarity of vision of what always was? At that point, don't all the names and descriptions become meaningless? Like a man who has made a long journey, and arrived at his destination, rest and become refreshed.

Narijuna speaking of dependent origination and the concept of non-substantiality wrote:

"The Buddha taught that the nature of dependent origination is not exstinguished or produced, it does not exist momentarily or eternally, it is not single or compound, it does not come and does not go, it transcends the vanity of words and is the ultimate bliss."

Maybe that was just a valid criticism concerning the reification of language.

In the meantime:

Theravadans who have taken the Bodhisattava vow ... ?

[sabaijai]

Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer

Ajahn Chah

"Shariputra, ever since I attained Buddhahood I have through various causes and various similes widely expounded my teachings and have used countless expedient means to guide living beings and cause them to renounce attachments. Why is this? Because the Thus Come One is fully possessed by both expedient means and the paramita of wisdom."

The Expedient Means Chapter 2, Lotus Sutra

Camerata may have some comments.

Arahant Path Contrasted With Bodhisattva Path

Great Disciples Of The Buddha, ...and their kammic bonds

BTW the Lotus Sutra is not a Theravada sutra.

[chutai]

Camerata may have some comments.

Arahant Path Contrasted With Bodhisattva Path

Great Disciples Of The Buddha, ...and their kammic bonds

Thanks for that.

BTW the Lotus Sutra is not a Theravada sutra.

Of course it's not. But I merely posted that reply to Shariputra (a Pretyekabuddha, or voice hearer) who is used in some Mahayana sutras -including the Lotus Sutra - as being a symbol of the two-vehicles , in reference to the quote from Acharn Chah alluding to attachments.

My poor effort at ironic humour it seems.

Afterword:

I should add that Shariputra is not treated disparigingly in the Lotus Sutra, as is the case by Vimalakitiri in the sutra by the same name. In the Lotus Sutra Shariputra is rightly portrayed as being known as the foremost in wisdom among Shakyamuni's disciples. In terms of wisdom, he is intellectually brilliant, second to none.

[camerata]

In the meantime:

Theravadans who have taken the Bodhisattava vow ... ?

Yes, I'd like to know who Rahula was referring to. The only one I've heard of was Ajahn Man, founder of the Forest Tradition, but he subsequently changed his mind and went for arahantship. I assume the details are in his biography, but I haven't read it yet.

[chutai]

In the meantime:

Theravadans who have taken the Bodhisattava vow ... ?

Yes, I'd like to know who Rahula was referring to. The only one I've heard of was Ajahn Man, founder of the Forest Tradition, but he subsequently changed his mind and went for arahantship. I assume the details are in his biography, but I haven't read it yet.

I hope that I'll be able to shed more light on this a bit later, when hopefully I get more insight on the matter from the Theravada forum on e-sangha.

I'll of course keep this thread updated as appropriate. Gassho

[camerata]

Coincidentally, I found this quote under the term "bodhisatta" in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary:

"In the Pāli Canon and commentaries, the designation 'Bodhisatta' is given only to Prince Siddhattha before his enlightenment and to his former existences. The Buddha himself uses this term when speaking of his life prior to enlightenment e.g. M. 4, M. 26. Bodhisattahood is neither mentioned nor recommended as an ideal higher than or alternative to Arahatship; nor is there any record in the Pāli scriptures of a disciple declaring it as his aspiration."

If that's true, it seems unlikely that many Theravadins would choose to be a bodhisatta.

[chutai]

Coincidentally, I found this quote under the term "bodhisatta" in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary:

"In the P?li Canon and commentaries, the designation 'Bodhisatta' is given only to Prince Siddhattha before his enlightenment and to his former existences. The Buddha himself uses this term when speaking of his life prior to enlightenment e.g. M. 4, M. 26. Bodhisattahood is neither mentioned nor recommended as an ideal higher than or alternative to Arahatship; nor is there any record in the P?li scriptures of a disciple declaring it as his aspiration."

If that's true, it seems unlikely that many Theravadins would choose to be a bodhisatta.

According to this, I'm informed that the Bodhisattva path is part of the Theravada ? The difference appears to be that the Theravada aspirant develops one's paramitas to a point where one can make the aspiration for Buddhahood in front of a living Buddha who then predicts the aspirant's awakening.

Ledi Sayadaw, (1900), Uttama Purisa D?pan?: Manual of the Excellent Man, http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttama/uttama.html

Also, Peter Harvey (2007), [Routeledge's Encyclopaedia of Buddhism articles], http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=56387

Post Script

The new avitar threw me a bit there, as did Sukhavati. I never realised that you were a Pure Lander.

[camerata]

According to this, I'm informed that the Bodhisattva path is part of the Theravada ? The difference appears to be that the Theravada aspirant develops one's paramitas to a point where one can make the aspiration for Buddhahood in front of a living Buddha who then predicts the aspirant's awakening.

I haven't really studied this much but my understanding is that in Theravada only Sakyamuni is referred to as the bodhisatta, before his enlightenment, and previous buddhas trod a similar path. Sakyamuni's chief disciples are said to have made a vow in a previous life to serve a future buddha, but they aren't described as bodhisattas.

The new avitar threw me a bit there, as did Sukhavati. I never realised that you were a Pure Lander.

There were complaints that the old avatar was scaring members so I decided to change it.

I guess it's time to change my location too.

[AYJAYDEE]

I was unaware of this until earlier today and would be interested in exploring further.

Any comments or further links on this subect will be appreciated. Ta.

"There is a wide-spread belief, particularly in the West, that the ideal of the Theravada, which they conveniently identify with Hinayana, is to become an Arahant while that of the Mahayana is to become a Bodhisattva and finally to attain the state of a Buddha. It must be categorically stated that this is incorrect."

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha126.htm

thank you! that is a revelation to me as well

[chownah]

"There is a wide-spread belief, particularly in the West, that the ideal of the Theravada, which they conveniently identify with Hinayana, is to become an Arahant while that of the Mahayana is to become a Bodhisattva and finally to attain the state of a Buddha. It must be categorically stated that this is incorrect."

I think this is incorrect or at least very misleading.....Theravada Buddhism very much stresses becoming an arahant and there is very little emphasis placed on becoming a Bodhisattava.....the end result for both in Theravada teaching is nibhanna and is the same. One needs to be careful in making this comparison in that from what I have heard the definitions of Bodhisattva and Arahant are different in Theravada and the Mahayana so the terms cannot be compared straight across the board from what I have heard.

Chownah