Male/female - East Vs West

[AlexLah]

Damian I think when being in a relation both should be equal.

Just to confirm, do you feel/think a man should have the last word?

[DamianMavis]

The last word? Dont know what you mean really, Alex I think you are trying to fit me into some classification or "type" to make sense of things for yourself. Please dont do that. Im not some domineering abusive a$$hole, I simply demonstrate the strength and power that makes my girlfriend happy.

Damian

[blizzard]

so does overpowering your girl make you happy sir?

the way you write worries me sir.

you need to convey your thought s in a different way.

ps. i understan wot alex trying to say. very clear.

Edited November 19, 2007 by blizzard

[sbk]

This thread isn't about Damian and his personal life. Lets keep it on topic please

[DamianMavis]

You know what, at least you are writing clearly now so THAT is progress.

Physical strength and power are totally NOT what I was talking about, and everyone seems to understand that but you, however since you asked: physically overpowering my girl makes HER happy, its ok for me but you know, I do what I gotta do to keep the lil one happy!

I posted same time as you SBK...

Damian

Edited November 19, 2007 by DamianMavis

[blizzard]

ok.

but he is very interesting.

[qwertz]

ok.

but he is very interesting.

Who?

Anyway, the last word from either partner should ideally be "Agreed".

[Polly]

It's clear to me that equality of the sexes has different connotations to different factions.

I'm more sensitive to inequality, i.e. a man being led around by the nose by his woman or the woman treated like a doormat by her man.

To me, any improvement on the above scenarios would be a step in the right direction.

I'm afraid I still don't fully understand the equality of the sexes issue, I just don't really see it as fully as others I'm afraid. I've spent forty years running large programs of work around the world and interviewing and hiring people in the process. With hand on heart I can honestly say that I have never considered gender to be an issue when it comes to filling vacancies or in considering someone for promotion, it's simply not a consideration. Perhaps most importantly I cannot recall instances where colleagues or co-workers have considered gender to be an issue and I don't recall ever having met an aggrieved female candidate who was rejected. I hear you say I must have led a sheltered life but that is far from the truth. I've lived and worked in a series of countries including USA, Europe, China and Hong Kong so I think my sample is quite broad.

What I have seen though and indeed been a party to is discussions with female employees who were constantly weighing up the benefits and merits of a corporate career with stopping work and having children - that's a tough one especially where the person in question is very capable. But what can be said about that - business has to go on and the idea of holding a position open for months or longer simply does not meet the business need.

I'm afraid that as far as employment and promotion is concerned the playing field for capable people in my view is very level and it has been for quite some time. Managers and Execs would be stupid not to recruit or promote a capable female over their less capable male counterpart. The other side of the coin however is where I have been involved in cases of dismissal and all too often where a female was involved the process was referred to lawyers on the basis of discrimination although none were successful.

Today there is a whole host of legislation on the books of most Western countries to ensure equality of the sexes and my personal experiences in business suggests that the process works well anyway. So it will come as no surprise that I don't understand why there is still so much talk about feminism and unfair treatment of women in the West. Could it be that it's just a fashionable topic at times, is something that existed years ago but things are much improved today, a bit like when the hippie movement died out, there were people twenty years on claiming to be hippies! I don't know. But what I do know is that people talking about the need for greater equality of the sexes are perhaps not helping them selves as much as they could - it gets in the way of doing stuff. It's a bit like having a cold and sitting in a chair all day saying I feel miserable.

Apologies for not understanding but it's what I see.

I actually dont think that there is that much talk about feminism in the west , from women. It is men who are going on about feminists taking over the world and expecting more rights than they have.

Many, many men in the west are terrified of sexual harrassment laws and tell the most ludicrous anectodal stories about how other men are falsely accused of this.

It is almost some kind of hysteria.

[blizzard]

polly, it aint hysteria. you better be dam_n CAREFUL ABOUT WOT YOU SAY TO WOMEN IN WEST. women get big bucks just claiming harrassament by men.

if secretary wear low cut blouse you better just look and not compliment her..........lol. and not look too mut.

Edited November 19, 2007 by blizzard

[xyborg]

Many, many men in the west are terrified of sexual harrassment laws and tell the most ludicrous anectodal stories about how other men are falsely accused of this. It is almost some kind of hysteria.

Like this you mean http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/c...icle2886663.ece

[GuestHouse]

Thailand is changing and like back in the west the women of Thailand are gaining more equal rights under the law, just as they are learning to be more self assertive of those rights.

I understand entirely why this worries guys who having failed to keep up with these changes in the west now realize they can't keep up in Thailand either.

The world changes, some people can't keep up - Despite having had two cracks at doing so.

[sbk]

Many, many men in the west are terrified of sexual harrassment laws and tell the most ludicrous anectodal stories about how other men are falsely accused of this. It is almost some kind of hysteria.

Like this you mean http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/c...icle2886663.ece

Definition of anecdotal: 2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis.

[DamianMavis]

Wow that woman did more damage to other women than any man ever could. Because of her it will be easier to discount real claims of rape.

Damian

[trader1]

Good luck to all of you, I have to say to all you 50+ yr olds that your 20 year old is probably in it for the money, but hey, if that makes you happy, then crack on.

My GF ( for last5 years ) is Japanese , won a beauty contest last year, graduated from one of the better univerisities in tokyo, comes from upper middle class family- and is 24 years younger than me. I doubt she is after money..

[blizzard]

and people say i get off topic......

[sbk]

It's clear to me that equality of the sexes has different connotations to different factions.

I'm more sensitive to inequality, i.e. a man being led around by the nose by his woman or the woman treated like a doormat by her man.

To me, any improvement on the above scenarios would be a step in the right direction.

I'm afraid I still don't fully understand the equality of the sexes issue, I just don't really see it as fully as others I'm afraid. I've spent forty years running large programs of work around the world and interviewing and hiring people in the process. With hand on heart I can honestly say that I have never considered gender to be an issue when it comes to filling vacancies or in considering someone for promotion, it's simply not a consideration. Perhaps most importantly I cannot recall instances where colleagues or co-workers have considered gender to be an issue and I don't recall ever having met an aggrieved female candidate who was rejected. I hear you say I must have led a sheltered life but that is far from the truth. I've lived and worked in a series of countries including USA, Europe, China and Hong Kong so I think my sample is quite broad.

What I have seen though and indeed been a party to is discussions with female employees who were constantly weighing up the benefits and merits of a corporate career with stopping work and having children - that's a tough one especially where the person in question is very capable. But what can be said about that - business has to go on and the idea of holding a position open for months or longer simply does not meet the business need.

I'm afraid that as far as employment and promotion is concerned the playing field for capable people in my view is very level and it has been for quite some time. Managers and Execs would be stupid not to recruit or promote a capable female over their less capable male counterpart. The other side of the coin however is where I have been involved in cases of dismissal and all too often where a female was involved the process was referred to lawyers on the basis of discrimination although none were successful.

Today there is a whole host of legislation on the books of most Western countries to ensure equality of the sexes and my personal experiences in business suggests that the process works well anyway. So it will come as no surprise that I don't understand why there is still so much talk about feminism and unfair treatment of women in the West. Could it be that it's just a fashionable topic at times, is something that existed years ago but things are much improved today, a bit like when the hippie movement died out, there were people twenty years on claiming to be hippies! I don't know. But what I do know is that people talking about the need for greater equality of the sexes are perhaps not helping them selves as much as they could - it gets in the way of doing stuff. It's a bit like having a cold and sitting in a chair all day saying I feel miserable.

Apologies for not understanding but it's what I see.

I actually dont think that there is that much talk about feminism in the west , from women. It is men who are going on about feminists taking over the world and expecting more rights than they have.

Many, many men in the west are terrified of sexual harrassment laws and tell the most ludicrous anectodal stories about how other men are falsely accused of this.

It is almost some kind of hysteria.

Well, regardless of sexual harassment, Chiang Mai doesn't see why there is such a big discussion as everything, in his view, has been taken care of.

Google "gender gap" and "gender and racial pay inequality".

But, I tend to agree with Polly here, most of the women I know aren't having these big discussions.

[Polly]

Wow that woman did more damage to other women than any man ever could. Because of her it will be easier to discount real claims of rape.

Damian

Yep, sometimes women make false accusations. So do we have no rape laws or no sexual harrassment laws because some very disturbed people have on occasion made a false accusation?

And Damian, ask those two young women that were dug up in the garden in Margate whether the girl who made the false accusation has done more damage to women than men ever could.

Really, being falsely accused of rape is more damaging than being abducted and murdered?

[DamianMavis]

Don't come after me please about rape issues, I've spent most of my life dealing with and trying to help rape vicitims. Most likely more than anyone else on this board or anyone you know. And yes when something like this becomes publicised is does massive damage to other REAL victims everywhere. I didnt say the damage was to the men falsely accused, take your witch hunt and go elsewhere.

Damian

[a2396]

Good luck to all of you, I have to say to all you 50+ yr olds that your 20 year old is probably in it for the money, but hey, if that makes you happy, then crack on.

My GF ( for last5 years ) is Japanese , won a beauty contest last year, graduated from one of the better univerisities in tokyo, comes from upper middle class family- and is 24 years younger than me. I doubt she is after money..

SO, Do you have more money than she does? Why would she be interested in you?? Your good looks or charm?

[chiang mai]

It's clear to me that equality of the sexes has different connotations to different factions.

I'm more sensitive to inequality, i.e. a man being led around by the nose by his woman or the woman treated like a doormat by her man.

To me, any improvement on the above scenarios would be a step in the right direction.

I'm afraid I still don't fully understand the equality of the sexes issue, I just don't really see it as fully as others I'm afraid. I've spent forty years running large programs of work around the world and interviewing and hiring people in the process. With hand on heart I can honestly say that I have never considered gender to be an issue when it comes to filling vacancies or in considering someone for promotion, it's simply not a consideration. Perhaps most importantly I cannot recall instances where colleagues or co-workers have considered gender to be an issue and I don't recall ever having met an aggrieved female candidate who was rejected. I hear you say I must have led a sheltered life but that is far from the truth. I've lived and worked in a series of countries including USA, Europe, China and Hong Kong so I think my sample is quite broad.

What I have seen though and indeed been a party to is discussions with female employees who were constantly weighing up the benefits and merits of a corporate career with stopping work and having children - that's a tough one especially where the person in question is very capable. But what can be said about that - business has to go on and the idea of holding a position open for months or longer simply does not meet the business need.

I'm afraid that as far as employment and promotion is concerned the playing field for capable people in my view is very level and it has been for quite some time. Managers and Execs would be stupid not to recruit or promote a capable female over their less capable male counterpart. The other side of the coin however is where I have been involved in cases of dismissal and all too often where a female was involved the process was referred to lawyers on the basis of discrimination although none were successful.

Today there is a whole host of legislation on the books of most Western countries to ensure equality of the sexes and my personal experiences in business suggests that the process works well anyway. So it will come as no surprise that I don't understand why there is still so much talk about feminism and unfair treatment of women in the West. Could it be that it's just a fashionable topic at times, is something that existed years ago but things are much improved today, a bit like when the hippie movement died out, there were people twenty years on claiming to be hippies! I don't know. But what I do know is that people talking about the need for greater equality of the sexes are perhaps not helping them selves as much as they could - it gets in the way of doing stuff. It's a bit like having a cold and sitting in a chair all day saying I feel miserable.

Apologies for not understanding but it's what I see.

I actually dont think that there is that much talk about feminism in the west , from women. It is men who are going on about feminists taking over the world and expecting more rights than they have.

Many, many men in the west are terrified of sexual harrassment laws and tell the most ludicrous anectodal stories about how other men are falsely accused of this.

It is almost some kind of hysteria.

Well, regardless of sexual harassment, Chiang Mai doesn't see why there is such a big discussion as everything, in his view, has been taken care of.

Google "gender gap" and "gender and racial pay inequality".

But, I tend to agree with Polly here, most of the women I know aren't having these big discussions.

Hmm, I didn't really say that. What I said is I don't see it and I conclude that if I haven't seen it and don't see it now then it's probably not the big deal that folks like to tell me it is. I have no doubt that inequality exists as does discrimination and every other undesirable practice man (and women) can devise. But let's put it in perspective please, is it a rampant daily event that effects the lives of greater than 70% of the female population, 50%, 10% or 5%. If someone claimed it is something that effects less than 2% of the population less than 5% of the time I would say, fine, that's the problem solved in so far as any problem of that type can be solved so let's move on - I suspect it is of that order personally. That being the case I would expect to encounter only a handful of ardent feminist supporters each year but I'm afraid the number is much higher. Reading what some posters have written in this thread I could be led to believe that this is a 70%/50% issue and it clearly is not.

Anyway boys and girls, I'm taking my better half away for five days starting tomorrow, off up country to see Mum and to see old friends in Chiang Mai hence I shall sadly not be able to spend anytime pursuing this topic and given the apparent rantings from the parallel thread that has interwoven itself, probably just as well. I look forward to reading however what has been concluded when I return. Oh and by the way, thanks to everyone for a really useful discussion, I actually learned a few things.

[blizzard]

people this thread is not about damian.

if it is i would like to join in again.............lol.

[Boo]

the fact is that the catalyst for the original post was two different sources and I deliberately did not want to identify one of them since they hold high office on a well known social networking site in Asia and discussion about there views might have led to the post being deleted and me being banned. As it turns out that source was very open with her views and I now understand her viewpoint much better so that was really useful. I'm afraid the part about the two female house guests was fabricated in order to try to make my point better and it served its purpose but now understand viewers interpretation of it all.

so as I (and I will assume me as I have been the only female mod to post at length) have put forward my veiwpoint then please post my post that was one of the catalyst as looking through my most recent posts I don't recall saying men & women were the same with the same capabilities, or is that another "fabrication" to put your point across better??. As for the fabricating of your story to try to make a point, it's plainly called lying or in the cyber world, trolling & is frowned apon on this website. IMO if you can't handle the discussion without making stuff up then you should try not to post at all.

so either post what bothered you so much to start this thread or be honest as to your intentions but please, no more fabrication.

oh & if I wasn't the person referenced above then by all means let us know who you meant. no need for subdefuge.

[chiang mai]

Men and women are not the same physically, but they are about 5% different, anatomically. They are equal intellectually. Emotional status is driven by culture.

I hate OP's who say provide the quantification for your 5% difference but I'm afraid that if you are going to quote it I'll have to ask for supporting evidence. It's not that I don't believe you it's just that I don't identify with that number as a scientific assessment, nor have I ever heard it before.

As for the second part, sorry PB but there is far more to it than just cultural drivers and I'ld be out of my depth if I tried to guess what they might be. Perhaps therefore you can explain whether that is opinion or fact. Sorry to be a pain but the differences between men and women are at the very heart of this debate hence I'm not comfortable accepting what might turn out to be throw away statements.

[sylviex]

Chiang Mai,

It has been an interesting discussion - thanks.

Firstly, re discrimination in the West. It does still exist, as a google for stats ,as "sbk" suggested, would reveal.

However, many young women in developed countries are now growing up with little/no understanding of the ground gained by their mothers and grandmothers. Some think "feminism" is a dirty word. There is some danger that ground will be lost*, though -thank goodness - there are now checks and balances written into our legal codes.

*in many respects, because if we cannot acknowledge equality of rights for all people, everyone loses

It would seem natural that women from more developed societies would notice and talk about the status of women in Thailand ( & other sectors of the Thai population).

But let's put it in perspective please, is it a rampant daily event that effects the lives of greater than 70% of the female population, 50%, 10% or 5%.

In which part of the world ?

Edited November 19, 2007 by sylviex

[blizzard]

oh women in the west do talk about thai women........................lol.

you ought to hear wot they say, very eye opening stuff!

[sylviex]

I hate OP's who say provide the quantification for your 5% difference but I'm afraid that if you are going to quote it I'll have to ask for supporting evidence. It's not that I don't believe you it's just that I don't identify with that number as a scientific assessment, nor have I ever heard it before.

Chiang Mai,

You wrote :

Reading what some posters have written in this thread I could be led to believe that this is a 70%/50% issue and it clearly is not.

Do you have statistics ? ?

(Just by the way OP = Original Poster, I believe = you)

[sylviex]

"Male" and "female" are, in reality, just the words we use to label the ends of a very long x-y axis.

In between lies a whole range of individuals of the human species. Chiang Mai, if I were to feed you female hormones, you'd notice changes, but would you not still feel you were still "you" to a very large extent and % ?

Edited November 19, 2007 by sylviex

[chiang mai]

the fact is that the catalyst for the original post was two different sources and I deliberately did not want to identify one of them since they hold high office on a well known social networking site in Asia and discussion about there views might have led to the post being deleted and me being banned. As it turns out that source was very open with her views and I now understand her viewpoint much better so that was really useful. I'm afraid the part about the two female house guests was fabricated in order to try to make my point better and it served its purpose but now understand viewers interpretation of it all.

so as I (and I will assume me as I have been the only female mod to post at length) have put forward my veiwpoint then please post my post that was one of the catalyst as looking through my most recent posts I don't recall saying men & women were the same with the same capabilities, or is that another "fabrication" to put your point across better??. As for the fabricating of your story to try to make a point, it's plainly called lying or in the cyber world, trolling & is frowned apon on this website. IMO if you can't handle the discussion without making stuff up then you should try not to post at all.

so either post what bothered you so much to start this thread or be honest as to your intentions but please, no more fabrication.

oh & if I wasn't the person referenced above then by all means let us know who you meant. no need for subdefuge.

I don't believe I accused anyone of saying, "men & women were the same with the same capabilities" and am not sure where you have drawn that from.

As for fabrication on my part: I have already apologized for that and stated the reasons why I did so. In most literary and academic debates "white lies" are entirely permissible thus I do not feel like a criminal or a bad person because of it. I would understand however if you feel it is truly a heinous crime in your book and will accept with grace any ban you may wish to impose.

I personally have found the debate far more interesting than anticipated and extremely useful - as stated in a separate post I have learned some things. I would hope that the debate continues in my absence (I'm away on holiday for five days as already stated) and that either the debate concludes positively and/or that others also learn from it. My intention in starting the debate was because I wished to understand a topic in more detail and to learn the views of others on it and I believe that objective has been met - there is nothing sinister, untoward here and certainly no male conspiracy or plot. I believe I have nothing further to add to my original post by way of content or clarification that would serve the debate further.

[chiang mai]

I hate OP's who say provide the quantification for your 5% difference but I'm afraid that if you are going to quote it I'll have to ask for supporting evidence. It's not that I don't believe you it's just that I don't identify with that number as a scientific assessment, nor have I ever heard it before.

Chiang Mai,

You wrote :

Reading what some posters have written in this thread I could be led to believe that this is a 70%/50% issue and it clearly is not.

Do you have statistics ? ?

(Just by the way OP = Original Poster, I believe = you)

Nicely done! But that's exactly the point isn't it? If we have reliable measurements let's all use them but let's not develop a case on sound bites and conjecture.

[chiang mai]

Chiang Mai,

It has been an interesting discussion - thanks.

Firstly, re discrimination in the West. It does still exist, as a google for stats ,as "sbk" suggested, would reveal.

However, many young women in developed countries are now growing up with little/no understanding of the ground gained by their mothers and grandmothers. Some think "feminism" is a dirty word. There is some danger that ground will be lost*, though -thank goodness - there are now checks and balances written into our legal codes.

*in many respects, because if we cannot acknowledge equality of rights for all people, everyone loses

It would seem natural that women from more developed societies would notice and talk about the status of women in Thailand ( & other sectors of the Thai population).

But let's put it in perspective please, is it a rampant daily event that effects the lives of greater than 70% of the female population, 50%, 10% or 5%.

In which part of the world ?

Sorry, the West, USA, Europe, Canada, Western Europe, those kind of places.