To Do With Fancying Thai Men

[DamianMavis]

Mssabai, if you have any doubts, just end it. How many men have you been with that like to discuss the "inner you"? I dont know any guys that wouldnt think that was torture. If you find one... KEEP HIM.

Damian

[Chris Lawrence]

Speaking to a Uni Professor about relationships, their view was that it took 2 years to form a long term relationship and 5 years to come out of a long term relationship. Just reading the posts above reminded me of this, and my experience tells me that it is near enough on the money.

Six months in a relationship is not a long time. But here I am saying this as I am not a good one to judge another.

Either Thai or Westerner we still need to get to know the other person. I think sometimes we have our acre of diamonds right in front of us and we don't have to go traipsing off on another conquest to find someone that we think may be more perfect. There is the need to be patient but not self indulgent.

I enjoyed reading Bina post and agree its the little things that count, and being available when needed. But honestly, I don't feel like the horse, understand what you are trying to say but your next post expressed it a lot better. I also can relate to Lapo as I am guilty of this. Sometimes there is the need for reflection but also the action that follows.

[mssabai]

Mssabai, if you have any doubts, just end it. How many men have you been with that like to discuss the "inner you"? I dont know any guys that wouldnt think that was torture. If you find one... KEEP HIM.

Damian

I need to clarify....I am not looking for a man to talk about the 'inner me' with on a constant basis - I just used that as it had been referred to in a previous post - I just need to conversation to go a little deeper than "what are we going to eat tonight" and our plans for the weekend. I need to know that he is actually interested in my life outside of him. Like asking how my day was, how my friends are etc. I can't explain it all in a post, but I am in no way an over-analyzing, neurotic, psycho babble kind of girl - I am an easy going girlfriend - but it is make or break time. I just wanted to get other people's pespective on what I was experiencing and understand if it was a cultural based issue or just an incompatability, although I am not sure how much difference it makes either way.

[sbk]

Sounds like he's a man. Not very many men can sustain that kind of talk, frankly, no matter how much they love the girl. If you want that kind of conversation with a guy you are in a relationship with (not friends, they are different for some reason) then you will have to initiate it. I've seen it in relationships of friends who have Thai boyfriends, farang boyfriends. probably the only relationship you won't see it in is one where a man is not involved

I'd like to say I am kidding about that part, but honestly, no. My dad explained it to me once. He said, "a man will tell you he loves you. he will assume you understand that to be true until he tells you otherwise". And my dad had a long (40 years), loving and romantic relationship with my mom.

So, just apply that to "are you ok" etc etc. You have to train the guy to ask these questions. If the guy asks these questions now its because some other woman already taught him the importance of it (not necessarily an ex girlfriend, could be a sister or a friend as well).

[mssabai]

Sounds like he's a man. Not very many men can sustain that kind of talk, frankly, no matter how much they love the girl. If you want that kind of conversation with a guy you are in a relationship with (not friends, they are different for some reason) then you will have to initiate it. I've seen it in relationships of friends who have Thai boyfriends, farang boyfriends. probably the only relationship you won't see it in is one where a man is not involved

I'd like to say I am kidding about that part, but honestly, no. My dad explained it to me once. He said, "a man will tell you he loves you. he will assume you understand that to be true until he tells you otherwise". And my dad had a long (40 years), loving and romantic relationship with my mom.

So, just apply that to "are you ok" etc etc. You have to train the guy to ask these questions. If the guy asks these questions now its because some other woman already taught him the importance of it (not necessarily an ex girlfriend, could be a sister or a friend as well).

Tammy Wynette is now floating through my head "....cos after all, he's just a man". I'm off to borrow a copy of "Men are from Mars" as I am obviously out of touch (spoilt by a very well trained ex boyfriend no doubt!).

[Boo]

I don't see the point in being in a relationship if I do not feel completely satisfied about his feelings and my feelings

IMO Binas advice is very good about not overexpecting too much from any relationship, as those of us who have been or are in a LTR all know that the idea of romance is very fleeting & it takes a lot more than roses, sweet words & rampant nookie to sustain one But her advice is from the perspective of someone who has already had a realtionship in her 20's which resulted in marriage & children & I am assuming she entered it with very different expectations than the one she has now so as you have yet to expereince these things & have to make your own mistakes & learn your own lessons in love & life, you need to trust your own instincts. I'm not saying that you shouldn't expect romantic jestures or to be asked how your day is but it isn't the bee all & end all so IMO you should weigh up how important it is TO YOU to get these thing & how often.

I also agree with you that if you can't see the relationship going anywhere then why waste time on it, no matter how nice he is or how well you get on if you are looking for something more & you don't think he can offer it then you need to set both of you free to find peope who are more compatible. One question though, have you sat your bf down & told him how you feel about his supposed lack of attentiveness? If not, do it as if you are going to finish with him anyway then it wont hurt for him to know what he could do in future relationships, as like sbk says, someone has ususally taught them the things that make women happy, so try to leave him with some helpful knowledge & you never know, he may take it on board & could help your relationship get over this stumbling block!

[sbk]

We get people from all over the world in our place and its amazing, after talking with women from all over, how much of this stuff is just guy stuff. Truly astounding that my Thai husband has just as much difficulty putting his dirty clothes in the laundry basket as my American dad or our customer's English boyfriend. Replace that with German, Swiss, Dutch, etc etc etc and you will see what I mean.

That said, of course there are cultural differences, but I suspect communication is not one of them.

My husband and I have been married 18 years and I have learned to just tell him whats going on--no point in playing games or building resentments because he won't or can't figure out whats going on in my head. He likes the straightforward approach and appreciates it that if I have a problem I tell him clearly and without getting angry. If he chooses to not listen or not deal with whatever is causing that problem, then I get angry. But I give him the chance to understand where I am coming from without having to guess.

[LaoPo]

we dont discuss 'developing the inner me' or 'defining myself in the relationship' , we just function as two parts of a whole in a relationship. it rather reminds me of what i once explained to someone about horse back riding on a horse that u know and ride for a long time. u develop a working relationship with the horse. and it is work. u have to be aware of it's temperament, health, moods (yes they have moods) , if it is enjoying itself or not, u work as a team but each side knows what place it is in. the lines are defined, not ambivalent, or blurred, or u think that maybe it thinks that u are thinking about doing something (second guessing)... (horse as he/or she not it, just easier to write).

That really struck a chord with what I am going through at the moment Bina. My relationship is now getting past the initial first rushes of love to the more mundane nitty gritty of being a long term couple. I am analysing us more as a couple because it is kind of make or break time for me...do I carry on investing in what is going to be a long term relationship, or do I cut my losses after six months and agree that we are not going to be together forever and finish as friends? One major sticking point is that we don't talk about what you referred to (the inner me etc). That has made me think that perhaps he doesn't really know me, and because of my own insecurities, makes me think that he can't be truely in love with me (although he says he is).

Aside from this lack of sharing we have a great relationship, and I completely understand your horse analogy, we work well as a team. We give each other space, we know what each other likes to do, likes to eat, daily routine etc. We get on well with each others friends and family and it really feels like a partnership. I feel that relationships in Thailand are more about a partnership...almost like work, and some relationships exist solely because of business ties and the like. I spoke to a Thai friend about my concerns and he just could not understand what my point was and was flabbergasted that I was thinking of finishing over something so 'trivial'. I am now in a quandry - is it trivial? Is it just a requirement that has been conditioned into me through my upbringing? Do I really mind that much if we don't discuss the inner things? I am just not sure!

Sorry to jump in young Lady...

Being a male, with some experience in life and love, I think you:

think too much, talk too much, write too much, analyze too much and calculate too much....about LOVE.

Why don't you start to accept life and love in general and start enjoying yourself and your partner for the time being ?

You're only 25 and the whole world is in front of you.

ENJOY IT, and don't worry and analyze so much; especially also not about the differences in culture (and men) between the UK and Thailand; it will take you a long time to understand only a fraction...why worry so much now ?

Time will tell....always

LaoPo

I think your post was meant as friendly advise but it came off as rude to be honest. I was going into detail about my relationship because it was very relevant to this thread and I received a lot of interesting viewpoints back that I am very greatful for. How do you know that I think too much and talk too much about love? You don't know me. You can pass judgement on how much I write, but based on a wordcount, I don't think it was an awful lot and is the only time I ever gone into personal detail on a thread.

I am "analyzing" both because I am quite happy being single, and because there are other issues within our relationship that I am not prepared to dig out for your rather judgemental appraisal. I don't see the point in being in a relationship if I do not feel completely satisfied about his feelings and my feelings. I understand that you have had experience in love and that I am "only 25" but I still think that I am entitled to question the relationship that I am in - I do have the whole world in front of me which is why I want to make sure that I am making the right choices now and not waste time with someone when I could be having a better time on my own. What makes you think I don't enjoy the time I spend with my partner and that I "don't accept life"? I have had a fantastic time with my partner as I mentioned in my post, and as for accepting life..yeesh - you REALLY don't know me do you?

I think you cast too much judgement on people's lives based on single posts, as I have discovered before.

1. it was meant friendly; what and how you read it is in the eyes of the beholder; I certainly wasn't rude or meant to be rude.

2. indeed, I don't know you

3. I (like all posters, taking the time to answer your doubts and questions) based my answer upon what I read; written by yourself

4. the way you answer to my post shows you're having problems with yourself and how to deal with your (any) relationship

5. if you are looking to be "completely satisfied about his feelings and my feelings" you better live alone...nobody and no relationship is perfect

6. I think you like the attention, you're getting here

Take care and: keep smiling

LaoPo

[Ave]

Mssabai, if you have any doubts, just end it. How many men have you been with that like to discuss the "inner you"? I dont know any guys that wouldnt think that was torture. If you find one... KEEP HIM.

Damian

I need to clarify....I am not looking for a man to talk about the 'inner me' with on a constant basis - I just used that as it had been referred to in a previous post - I just need to conversation to go a little deeper than "what are we going to eat tonight" and our plans for the weekend. I need to know that he is actually interested in my life outside of him. Like asking how my day was, how my friends are etc. I can't explain it all in a post, but I am in no way an over-analyzing, neurotic, psycho babble kind of girl - I am an easy going girlfriend - but it is make or break time. I just wanted to get other people's pespective on what I was experiencing and understand if it was a cultural based issue or just an incompatability, although I am not sure how much difference it makes either way.

I think there actually are many men who are able to get into deep subjects if they find the right stimulation or simply when and if they find it necessary or simply with whom they feel most comfortable to share them.

For me it's what we attract and believe that we need that comes to us without us even realise it more often than not. I think that mssabai is looking for the right balance and she's giving this relationship some careful thought to suss it out. Because she's in it and not outside it, it might help her if she gives it some time to better understand if that's what she was looking for or not.

I mostly had partners who behaved and thought so extremely differently from each other (but there was always some pattern that I was involuntarily creating, just like most of us) that, my family and friends were quite baffled at times. I think that perhaps I was looking for variety to learn from people not just as partners but as individuals I can learn from and exchange with emotions, ideas, happiness and why not, sometimes even frustration and - unfairly - baggage too. The fact that we stayed friends even after the end of the relationships shows that we created something special from that temporary union.

I learnt, though, that it's my instinct that I should follow. If I feel that this person is adding human value to my life perhaps they are worth checking out for a special connection that will add quality in our life. If it feels it's dragging on I should make a change that we will both benefit from, whatever that will be.

Certainly suspicion and reluctance to communicate with an open heart are the things that kill the relationship.

[Chris Lawrence]

SBK don.t go judging men on the comment above. I just felt sorry for him. There are many levels of intimacy. some just stay on the bottom run of the ladder; men and women.

I found with my first partner, that the goal posts just kept changing and that I don't think I was ever allowed in to get to know her in a deep way. What I have learn't from this experience is that she suffered with deep intimacy problems stemming from a very horrific childhood. We did a bit of counseling but what I found was that I was getting the blame from things in the beginning of the relationship to global warming. I just couldn't win a trick. Every time I went to close the relationship, I would be drawn back in. My own fault. Until I made the decision to finally leave. This was a 18 year learning curve.

I have had 2 relationships after this and found no problem sitting down and talking. I had to leave one relationship due to differing of opinions. All I can say is its been hard work, welfare degree sitting in a class of females and being the only male, a bit of counseling and having a lot of male friends that I can not just talk bull@hit too but discuss how we are feeling. This is why I say don't judge all men on one comment. But it is also good to sit down bull@hit and have a good laugh.

Sometimes it is good to come over the other side of the fence and have a look backwards. A few years ago a friend of mine said she could not understand her teenage sons. I lean't her a book by an Oz author Steve Biddulph 'Raising Boys' a very good look at the stages of growth within young males. She went out and bought three books, one for herself and the other two for her sons. Sorry this might have been a bit off topic.

Anyway, the song that comes in my head is Bruce Springsteen "Secret Garden". I think its like friendships some are good some are not so good. Its just learning to know when the not so good ones are not good for you. As you can see I am a slow learner.

[fletchsmile]

I think there actually are many men who are able to get into deep subjects if they find the right stimulation or simply when and if they find it necessary or simply with whom they feel most comfortable to share them.

For me it's what we attract and believe that we need that comes to us without us even realise it more often than not. I think that mssabai is looking for the right balance and she's giving this relationship some careful thought to suss it out. Because she's in it and not outside it, it might help her if she gives it some time to better understand if that's what she was looking for or not.

I mostly had partners who behaved and thought so extremely differently from each other (but there was always some pattern that I was involuntarily creating, just like most of us) that, my family and friends were quite baffled at times. I think that perhaps I was looking for variety to learn from people not just as partners but as individuals I can learn from and exchange with emotions, ideas, happiness and why not, sometimes even frustration and - unfairly - baggage too. The fact that we stayed friends even after the end of the relationships shows that we created something special from that temporary union.

I learnt, though, that it's my instinct that I should follow. If I feel that this person is adding human value to my life perhaps they are worth checking out for a special connection that will add quality in our life. If it feels it's dragging on I should make a change that we will both benefit from, whatever that will be.

Certainly suspicion and reluctance to communicate with an open heart are the things that kill the relationship.

Personally I often like analysing things, particularly people, and often can't stop myself. I also like daydreaming and philosophising, whereas my Thai better half perhaps "just does things" - often more practically. On the other hand, some days it's great to just try and do things without thinking - hence one reason people like drinking. Even though my wife just seems to "do things without thinking", I know she also analyses a lot of things, in her own way - just differently, and with a different focus.

For those of us who analyse a lot, you need to remember that no communication is ever 100% effective. The receptor never fully understands the person who originates the communication. They never exactly receive, the words, thoughts, projections, meaning, intention, mood, feelings etc in exactly the way they were sent. Theres' always something lost in translation.

Once you're mindful of that "receptor gap", you see where the misunderstandings come in.

This gap gets accentuated across cultures, when we use the same words/actions in different ways.

We also often judge ourselves on our intentions, but judge others on our interpretation of their actions. If you focus more on other people's intentions, and assume they are well meant, then life becomes simpler.

For me it's one of the most important things in life to try and see into my wife's heart, and to try and make my own as easy as possible to see.

(Almost) Everyone wants to be happy. Few people deliberately intend to hurt others. Particularly when you're with a partner you care about. Otherwise you wouldn't be with each other. So if you just assume anything you perceive negatively about your partner's communication, is simply a misunderstanding of intention on your part, there's little else to worry about. Throw in the cultural gap, and the fact that you've probably just misunderstood it all in the first place, then she(/he) really is lovely, and any problem is down to you anyway

Edited November 22, 2007 by fletchthai68

[Ave]

I think there actually are many men who are able to get into deep subjects if they find the right stimulation or simply when and if they find it necessary or simply with whom they feel most comfortable to share them.

For me it's what we attract and believe that we need that comes to us without us even realise it more often than not. I think that mssabai is looking for the right balance and she's giving this relationship some careful thought to suss it out. Because she's in it and not outside it, it might help her if she gives it some time to better understand if that's what she was looking for or not.

I mostly had partners who behaved and thought so extremely differently from each other (but there was always some pattern that I was involuntarily creating, just like most of us) that, my family and friends were quite baffled at times. I think that perhaps I was looking for variety to learn from people not just as partners but as individuals I can learn from and exchange with emotions, ideas, happiness and why not, sometimes even frustration and - unfairly - baggage too. The fact that we stayed friends even after the end of the relationships shows that we created something special from that temporary union.

I learnt, though, that it's my instinct that I should follow. If I feel that this person is adding human value to my life perhaps they are worth checking out for a special connection that will add quality in our life. If it feels it's dragging on I should make a change that we will both benefit from, whatever that will be.

Certainly suspicion and reluctance to communicate with an open heart are the things that kill the relationship.

Personally I often like analysing things, particularly people, and often can't stop myself. I also like daydreaming and philosophising, whereas my Thai better half perhaps "just does things" - often more practically. On the other hand, some days it's great to just try and do things without thinking - hence one reason people like drinking. Even though my wife just seems to "do things without thinking", I know she also analyses a lot of things, in her own way - just differently, and with a different focus.

For those of us who analyse a lot, you need to remember that no communication is ever 100% effective. The receptor never fully understands the person who originates the communication. They never exactly receive, the words, thoughts, projections, meaning, intention, mood, feelings etc in exactly the way they were sent. Theres' always something lost in translation.

Once you're mindful of that "receptor gap", you see where the misunderstandings come in.

This gap gets accentuated across cultures, when we use the same words/actions in different ways.

We also often judge ourselves on our intentions, but judge others on our interpretation of their actions. If you focus more on other people's intentions, and assume they are well meant, then life becomes simpler.

For me it's one of the most important things in life to try and see into my wife's heart, and to try and make my own as easy as possible to see.

(Almost) Everyone wants to be happy. Few people deliberately intend to hurt others. Particularly when you're with a partner you care about. Otherwise you wouldn't be with each other. So if you just assume anything you perceive negatively about your partner's communication, is simply a misunderstanding of intention on your part, there's little else to worry about. Throw in the cultural gap, and the fact that you've probably just misunderstood it all in the first place, then she(/he) really is lovely, and any problem is down to you anyway

Totally agree fletchthai68!

May I add that since I have started looking for answers in my 'innerself' rather than examining others in relationships and everything else in life, I have also learnt to take responsibility for my actions. My life is complete with or without a partner, Thai or not.

[bina]

boo, the main reason i got married the first tie round was (hold your horses here gals) * it seemed a good idea at the time* -- ...therefore you were spot on: age and experience are certainly a factor in this....

i think some of what we all discussed here may be as someone said, just 'men are from mars' sort of thing, but a lot is still very 'thai'...

it is politically correct to say that' every one is different' and u cant pinpoint a specific quality about men from a specific culture, but that is incorrect.

case in point: here, in israel, the ethiopians have one of the highest rates of wife abuse /murder in the country. after the last case (a month ago a man thru his wife and child out of a window), 'chiefs' from within the ethiopian community developed a program together with social workers trained in culture shock community work etc to work with the ethiopian men. the cultural difference that all the men pointed out was: 1. there is no word for violence in amharit, 2. women are the possesions of men. when the women came to israel and started functioning in a society were women are strong (ok, more in the home then in the workforce) and do their own banking, work, shop, make decisions, the men lost their power, and instead of dealing and discussing with their wives or with elders, they would wait and swallow their anger until it would explode in psychotic episodes which usually ended in deaths of wives and sometimes chidlren...

the main point was that these men have specific cultural expectations that suddenly became redundant. my daughter dated an ethiopian guy for a while, and , indeed, cultural differences galore in the way he would deal with many issues/problems/even words he would use in hebrew , he used with a different intent behind them.

so though we find that many qualities of thai men are just 'man' things, many of the qualities are still very 'thai'....

just a tangent...

bina

[seonai]

You gals have really explained what I originally meant in the OP but said in a round about way... and Bina has just really hit it on the head all round... what a cool woman... I want to come to visit you xxx

[mssabai]

1. it was meant friendly; what and how you read it is in the eyes of the beholder; I certainly wasn't rude or meant to be rude.

2. indeed, I don't know you

3. I (like all posters, taking the time to answer your doubts and questions) based my answer upon what I read; written by yourself

4. the way you answer to my post shows you're having problems with yourself and how to deal with your (any) relationship

5. if you are looking to be "completely satisfied about his feelings and my feelings" you better live alone...nobody and no relationship is perfect

6. I think you like the attention, you're getting here

Take care and: keep smiling

LaoPo

Once again Lao Po, I apologise for being rude towards your obviously well intentioned advice. Everything is subjective of course, and I took what you wrote as I read it (ie I should not even bother questioning my relationship and if I do then I am simply being over analytical). Of course I am sensitive about this issue at the moment (hence my rather heated response), I am considering breaking up with someone that I care a lot for. However to say that one response to a post that I found rude (for whatever reason) shows that I have problems with myself and how I deal with any relationship is unfair and unnessecary and makes assumptions about my entire life based on a few lines I have written.

Back to your points though, being satisfied about his feelings and my feelings means knowing that neither of us is having doubts about the relationship. No of course no relationship is perfect, but I do think it is an issue if either of you is having doubts. Do you not agree? I am interested to know what kind of reasons you would think were valid for finishing a relationship, or at least having a serious conversation about it's future?

[sbk]

I just need to conversation to go a little deeper than "what are we going to eat tonight" and our plans for the weekend. I need to know that he is actually interested in my life outside of him. Like asking how my day was, how my friends are etc. I can't explain it all in a post, but I am in no way an over-analyzing, neurotic, psycho babble kind of girl - I am an easy going girlfriend - but it is make or break time. I just wanted to get other people's pespective on what I was experiencing and understand if it was a cultural based issue or just an incompatability, although I am not sure how much difference it makes either way.

This is what struck me upon second thought. You are expecting certain things from this guy that are, in all liklihood, cultural constructs. You want him to show that he is interested in you and your life. I am presuming he is Thai. So, perhaps he is showing this to you but you are failing to grasp it since it is not within your expectations of how a partner is supposed to show interest.

An example (and one that Bina has brought up before but is culturally extremely significant) -- does he go out of his way to share his food with you? When eating does he pick out the best bits and give them to you or help you (for example) open your crab to eat it (not saying you eat crab but you get the picture). Does he bring back little treats for you? For almost all Thai people I have met in the years that I have been here care and concern is shown with food. And if you don't reciprocate do you realize that you are sending him the message that you don't care? One of my husbands and my first major arguments was because I was hungry and eating a sandwich and was unwilling to share --he had already eaten and I felt it was selfish of him to want some of my sandwich too. He was deeply hurt and very upset. It is deeply ingrained in this culture that you share your food. Now I make extra. Its a small simple thing that makes him happy and does not hurt me in the least.

This is just one instance of a cultural difference and cues you may be missing.

So, instead of expecting him to know that he should be asking how your day was, or expecting him to know that he should be having deeper conversations with you, you need to communicate to him what your needs and wants are. And you need to get him started on the idea that it is the norm to have these kinds of conversations by starting it yourself. It is not in the Thai nature to converse during a meal, for instance, so he most likely will not feel comfortable having a conversation over the dinner table while you expect it.

Somehow people got the misconception that I was saying communication isn't necessary, which is far from the truth. But the things you seem to be expecting are fairly unrealistic without giving the guy some clue first. Yes, I have a good marriage. Is it luck? Certainly not, it is alot of commitment, hard work, understanding and communication on both of our parts.

[mssabai]

I just need to conversation to go a little deeper than "what are we going to eat tonight" and our plans for the weekend. I need to know that he is actually interested in my life outside of him. Like asking how my day was, how my friends are etc. I can't explain it all in a post, but I am in no way an over-analyzing, neurotic, psycho babble kind of girl - I am an easy going girlfriend - but it is make or break time. I just wanted to get other people's pespective on what I was experiencing and understand if it was a cultural based issue or just an incompatability, although I am not sure how much difference it makes either way.

This is what struck me upon second thought. You are expecting certain things from this guy that are, in all liklihood, cultural constructs. You want him to show that he is interested in you and your life. I am presuming he is Thai. So, perhaps he is showing this to you but you are failing to grasp it since it is not within your expectations of how a partner is supposed to show interest.

An example (and one that Bina has brought up before but is culturally extremely significant) -- does he go out of his way to share his food with you? When eating does he pick out the best bits and give them to you or help you (for example) open your crab to eat it (not saying you eat crab but you get the picture). Does he bring back little treats for you? For almost all Thai people I have met in the years that I have been here care and concern is shown with food. And if you don't reciprocate do you realize that you are sending him the message that you don't care? One of my husbands and my first major arguments was because I was hungry and eating a sandwich and was unwilling to share --he had already eaten and I felt it was selfish of him to want some of my sandwich too. He was deeply hurt and very upset. It is deeply ingrained in this culture that you share your food. Now I make extra. Its a small simple thing that makes him happy and does not hurt me in the least.

This is just one instance of a cultural difference and cues you may be missing.

So, instead of expecting him to know that he should be asking how your day was, or expecting him to know that he should be having deeper conversations with you, you need to communicate to him what your needs and wants are. And you need to get him started on the idea that it is the norm to have these kinds of conversations by starting it yourself. It is not in the Thai nature to converse during a meal, for instance, so he most likely will not feel comfortable having a conversation over the dinner table while you expect it.

Somehow people got the misconception that I was saying communication isn't necessary, which is far from the truth. But the things you seem to be expecting are fairly unrealistic without giving the guy some clue first. Yes, I have a good marriage. Is it luck? Certainly not, it is alot of commitment, hard work, understanding and communication on both of our parts.

I think this is what I was trying to get an insight into sbk, so thank you. Yes my partner does fish out the best bits of food for me, yes we always share our food and I have actually always appreciated it however I never saw it as a substitue for what I would communicate verbally. But I agree that I should have. The talking and eating thing strikes a big cord - we spent his romantic birthday meal for two in stone cold silence and I ended up very frustrated. But I actually think I was only concerned because if I was in a 'western' relationship, that would be very strange and a big sign that there was something amiss. I assumed that he also heard the silence but now I don't think he did - it was just a normal meal for him...

But I also haven't spoken to him about my concerns in detail and know I need to do this as well (but it aint gonna be easy I know that much!)...yes I can adapt my expectations in view of the fact I am with someone of another culture, however I think there should also be give and take so asking him to bear a little of the burden (and explaining what I feel I am lacking) can't hurt as well.

[bina]

sbk... ))

seonai-- get your lungs in shape and come on over (btw, they have good lung clinics here for tb since it is common here also)

mssabai: sbk hit it well; my husband btw , when i asked him when do his parents or sisters and their husbands speak with eachother about intimidate daily things or problems, he said when they go to bed is the time they speak. meal time is for eating. and after almost choking to death one day on a piece of meat, i got reprimanded along the lines of 'see, talking and eating is unhealthy. thai people dont play with food, or talk, just 'eat to be full' '.

often, my husband wants to go to sleep early, waaay too early for me (he is still on an agricultural biological clock: dark outside, eat and go to sleep), but that is often his signal to me that he wants to 'converse' about things more intimate then basic conversation. not nookie-- talk, before the nookie )

one of the nicer things i've heard from orthodox jewish women was when they finished their menstruation and the 7+ days wait, they could sleep with their husband together (as separated during menstruation). but they dont come home from the 'ritual bath' and announce 'honey, i'm ready now'. they develop signals known only to them to indicate when she is 'clean' again: a flower in a small vase by the bed, a particular set of sheets used, a specific set of jewelry used on that day.

my point is that not all conversation is verbal and some cultures are less verbal so u have to 'read' more around u.

thai men i think are still in the culture of man talk vs. women talk. niggly problems of daily life are for u and your girlfriends (women talk) and i suspect they dont talk about themselves too much with their wives but do with their men friends (pi/nong-- 'brothers/close friends)...

i've also found that as i get older i have a better relationship with my few women friends and i do hold back on some of the niggly stuff from my husband and discuss with them... i get better responses - or more compatible with me responses.

bina

[LaoPo]

1. it was meant friendly; what and how you read it is in the eyes of the beholder; I certainly wasn't rude or meant to be rude.

2. indeed, I don't know you

3. I (like all posters, taking the time to answer your doubts and questions) based my answer upon what I read; written by yourself

4. the way you answer to my post shows you're having problems with yourself and how to deal with your (any) relationship

5. if you are looking to be "completely satisfied about his feelings and my feelings" you better live alone...nobody and no relationship is perfect

6. I think you like the attention, you're getting here

Take care and: keep smiling

LaoPo

Once again Lao Po, I apologise for being rude towards your obviously well intentioned advice. Everything is subjective of course, and I took what you wrote as I read it (ie I should not even bother questioning my relationship and if I do then I am simply being over analytical). Of course I am sensitive about this issue at the moment (hence my rather heated response), I am considering breaking up with someone that I care a lot for. However to say that one response to a post that I found rude (for whatever reason) shows that I have problems with myself and how I deal with any relationship is unfair and unnessecary and makes assumptions about my entire life based on a few lines I have written.

Back to your points though, being satisfied about his feelings and my feelings means knowing that neither of us is having doubts about the relationship. No of course no relationship is perfect, but I do think it is an issue if either of you is having doubts. Do you not agree? I am interested to know what kind of reasons you would think were valid for finishing a relationship, or at least having a serious conversation about it's future?

Allow me to go in steps:

1. No need for apologizes; we're grown up and we didn't intent to hurt the other.

2. You are 'considering breaking up'; that means you have doubts.

Reading through all your posts it seems to me that you are looking & searching where you can find his faults/mistakes/shortcomings. That is normal human behaviour as (most) people always try to blame the other, instead running to the bathroom and have a look in the mirror themselves (so to speak).

3. I indeed wrote: "you have problems with yourself and how to deal with your (any) relationship" and maybe that was a little harsh on you. Instead 'problems' the word 'doubts' should have been used by me, but believe me:

4. Once one of the partners start to have doubts about a relationship it's the "beginning of the end".

If two people are REALLY IN LOVE with each other there is no space for -serious- doubts.

Small doubts are normal; everyone experience them in a relationship once in a while, especially when it comes to 'cultural' relationships. They're not easy I can assure you (which you're facing now yourself...).

Good Luck !

LaoPo

[meemiathai]

I think there actually are many men who are able to get into deep subjects if they find the right stimulation or simply when and if they find it necessary or simply with whom they feel most comfortable to share them.

For me it's what we attract and believe that we need that comes to us without us even realise it more often than not. I think that mssabai is looking for the right balance and she's giving this relationship some careful thought to suss it out. Because she's in it and not outside it, it might help her if she gives it some time to better understand if that's what she was looking for or not.

I mostly had partners who behaved and thought so extremely differently from each other (but there was always some pattern that I was involuntarily creating, just like most of us) that, my family and friends were quite baffled at times. I think that perhaps I was looking for variety to learn from people not just as partners but as individuals I can learn from and exchange with emotions, ideas, happiness and why not, sometimes even frustration and - unfairly - baggage too. The fact that we stayed friends even after the end of the relationships shows that we created something special from that temporary union.

I learnt, though, that it's my instinct that I should follow. If I feel that this person is adding human value to my life perhaps they are worth checking out for a special connection that will add quality in our life. If it feels it's dragging on I should make a change that we will both benefit from, whatever that will be.

Certainly suspicion and reluctance to communicate with an open heart are the things that kill the relationship.

Personally I often like analysing things, particularly people, and often can't stop myself. I also like daydreaming and philosophising, whereas my Thai better half perhaps "just does things" - often more practically. On the other hand, some days it's great to just try and do things without thinking - hence one reason people like drinking. Even though my wife just seems to "do things without thinking", I know she also analyses a lot of things, in her own way - just differently, and with a different focus.

For those of us who analyse a lot, you need to remember that no communication is ever 100% effective. The receptor never fully understands the person who originates the communication. They never exactly receive, the words, thoughts, projections, meaning, intention, mood, feelings etc in exactly the way they were sent. Theres' always something lost in translation.

Once you're mindful of that "receptor gap", you see where the misunderstandings come in.

This gap gets accentuated across cultures, when we use the same words/actions in different ways.

We also often judge ourselves on our intentions, but judge others on our interpretation of their actions. If you focus more on other people's intentions, and assume they are well meant, then life becomes simpler.

For me it's one of the most important things in life to try and see into my wife's heart, and to try and make my own as easy as possible to see.

(Almost) Everyone wants to be happy. Few people deliberately intend to hurt others. Particularly when you're with a partner you care about. Otherwise you wouldn't be with each other. So if you just assume anything you perceive negatively about your partner's communication, is simply a misunderstanding of intention on your part, there's little else to worry about. Throw in the cultural gap, and the fact that you've probably just misunderstood it all in the first place, then she(/he) really is lovely, and any problem is down to you anyway

Every single word of the post.

[meemiathai]

You gals have really explained what I originally meant in the OP but said in a round about way... and Bina has just really hit it on the head all round... what a cool woman... I want to come to visit you xxx

Agreed. Bina is cool! Really cool!

[meemiathai]

I am interested to know what kind of reasons you would think were valid for finishing a relationship, or at least having a serious conversation about it's future?

I don't think there is a model answer for that. It is up to the person to decide really.

I ended a relationship of 3 years with a nurse here in HK. I decided I have had enough(yes it is difficult to decide "when?", I tried hard for 2 and a half years to make it successful but failed) and was going to live a playboy lifestyle having loose relationships only, for a while. But then I met my now wife just within a month. I liked her but I really did not know who she was. It was just due to some very trivial things I noticed from her that made me so. I decided to gamble. I asked her to marry me the third time we met coz it was the only way to keep the relationship going or else we would be living in 2 different countries which I believed would not work. I thought if it didn't work we can just divorce.

I am lucky though. 8 years on, we are loving each other more and more each day. She has turn out to be a real gem.

She has also turned out to be more stupid than I expected due to poor education I think(no comparison with the very intelligent nurse) but more intelligent than I thought in some ways. She of course is not the best woman in the world but she is the best in my world. She is a person with a very good heart which is very important for what I look for in a person.

One thing that is important in a relationship in my opinion is, one has to abandon one's own selfishness. One should constantly take time to think what one can do to make the partner happy. And that quite often means sacrificing one's own interest. But do make sure one does it to the right person. It is up to the person to decide "who?" though. I must admit I am not doing my best and I appreciate the fact she puts up with me.

Sorry for boring you people here. Off topic, it is about thai men right?

[seonai]

SBK - spot on with the food thing

Bina - will be there when I can

[girlx]

i wish i had more time and space to collect my thoughts and express them eloquently, but i am posting from internet cafes in south america, so maybe you can try to read between the lines. i think that mssabai is naturally a very analytical person, as am i. personally, i feel that if you have to stifle that aspect of your personality, then there will eventually be a problem in the relationship. not to say that one should examine every aspect of the partner/relationship to death, but some people (especially westerners) feel it is important in a relationship to be "known". and if your partner "knows" you and still accepts you and vice versa then you have a solid foundation for a long term relationship. in thailand, "knowing" each other doesnt seem to go too much beyond what ones favorite food is, or what routine you have fallen into. they focus on companionship and harmony, which is nice, for sure, but to me companionship is a dime a dozen and when the s*** hits the fan (as it eventually will in every life), there has to be a deeper understanding between the two people to carry them through it. maybe i feel this way because i have been lucky enough to find someone in my past who really does know me, and i really know him, through and through, even the oogly parts, and even though we dont spend much time together (and we really dont have much of a sexual connection), we both know no matter what happens we love each other and have each others backs. i can not find that sort of connection in thais, thus far, as they are simply unwilling to go deeper. and thats fine, for some people who just want that companionship. but it isnt fine for me. so, like i said in my earlier post, it all comes down to what YOU as an individual are willing to accept in the long run. if you feel you will not be happy with someone who doesnt show an interest in your inner self, you are probably right! you can try to compromise, but in the end you might be stifling a whole side of yourself, and being analytical, it will frustrate you. its up to you to decide whether that is the case.

[onethailand]

Some very interesting and good points raised in here, especially SBK, Bina and Fletchthai. The point about food was especially revealing, not that I didn't know, but I may not have been paying as much attention to it as I should have.

The closest I come is letting my kids or the wife have the first bite of whatever I'm eating (typically, a Triple Whopper which the kids love, or perhaps some new dish they've never seen before). In a way, that might be considered "the good bits" - but it is not quite the same as actually picking out the good bits.

Thanks.

[sbk]

Well, I guess it depends on some Thais not wanting to "know" the person because I can honestly say that my husband does understand the deeper me and we do have conversations (and arguments) about ourselves and our relationship. So, perhaps its better to state that many thais do not like to go deeper rather than generalize that ALL Thais are this way.

I think one thing, in a relationship with a Thai person, is that foreigners tend to expect the deeper knowledge to be of immediate importance, when I think, for many Thai people, it is easy to say something but they would rather judge a person based on their experiences of that person and their behavior over a period of time. As we all know, it is very easy to say one thing but to mean or do another and that IMO, many Thais (and this goes for friendships as well) withhold true intimacy until the other person has proved their trustworthiness.

[girlx]

you are probably right SBK, and if i spent 10 years with someone i think i probably couldn't help but "know" them better and vice versa. then again i remember reading about a serial killer who was raping and eating his victims, and his wife slept next to him for 30-something years and had no idea. anyway... my point is that so far, i am not able to find a thai person who wants to get too heavily into anything personal. this is not to say that none of them are interested, but i have not met any that want to discuss much of anything beyond the superficial. maybe they are evaluating but keeping it to themselves, but for me, it just wouldn't work long term. i like honest, straightforward, deep communication from the get go, and probably will never accept less.

[sbk]

My, what a rude comment.

[girlx]

how so?

[sbk]

Perhaps it seems obvious to me but if it isn't to you then perhaps I am misreading your very poorly worded cues here.