Immigration Clarifies Bank Account Rules

[george]

Immigration clarifies bank account rules

PHUKET CITY: Foreigners living in Phuket and applying for permit-to-stay extensions on the basis of marriage or retirement status do not need to “freeze” the minimum bank balance in their bank accounts, Phuket Immigration has announced.

“Foreigners applying for a one-year permit to stay based on marriage or retirement do not have to freeze the money in their accounts,” explained Pol Capt Krissarat Nuesen, Deputy Inspector of the Phuket Provincial Immigration Office.

“They just need to show us proof of their normal income and expenses and prove that they can support themselves in Thailand to a good standard of living.

“Some foreigners have misunderstood the minimum balance requirement as meaning they would no longer be able to use their own money.

“In fact, Immigration doesn’t require that the funds be kept in the bank at all times. It does, however, require that foreigners be prepared to prove their financial status is sound at any time we decide to check on them.

“It’s not that we won’t let them take money out of their bank account to pay normal living expenses, but the required balance should be shown properly and for a sufficient period of time.

“There have been many cases in which bank accounts were almost empty just a few days after they showed the minimum required balance.

“We suspect [that in these cases] people were borrowing money from friends so that they could meet the requirement on the day when we checked, then returning the money as soon as that had been accomplished. That is wrong,” he said.

To be granted a one-year extension of permit-to-stay, any foreign man (but not woman – the financial requirements do not apply to women) applying on the basis of being married to a Thai must show a minimum balance of 400,000 baht. Those with retired status must show double this amount.

Capt Krissarat added that proof of guaranteed monthly income paid into a Thai bank account in the applicant’s name could also be used to prove that the applicant was financially sound. In this case the figures are 40,000 baht or 65,000 baht a month, respectively.

He added that all documents submitted for this purpose must first be endorsed by the applicant’s embassy in Thailand. Pension documents, for example, can be verified by the embassy.

“A foreigner who has a business outside Thailand must take documents to the embassy proving business ownership and showing the income received each month from the business.

“The embassy will check the documents and then issue a paper stating that the foreigner truly has sufficient regular income from the business to meet our requirements.”

--Phuket Gazette 2004-08-19

[Pink Mist]

Do you think this will be an across the board policy George?

[george]

Propably yes. I believe this is nothing new, it just confirmes how the Phuket Immigration see things. Sounds pretty fair to me.

[lopburi3]

Believe the following is the key point:

In fact, Immigration doesn’t require that the funds be kept in the bank at all times. It does, however, require that foreigners be prepared to prove their financial status is sound at any time we decide to check on them.

Previous policy was only at visa extension time. Now spot checks "could" be more likely. And source "could" also be more closely checked.

But agree with George that this appears to be clarification of some previous information that might have caused people to think money had to remain in account rather than used for support as intended.

[redwood13]

He added that all documents submitted for this purpose must first be endorsed by the applicant’s embassy in Thailand. Pension documents, for example, can be verified by the embassy.

“A foreigner who has a business outside Thailand must take documents to the embassy proving business ownership and showing the income received each month from the business.

“The embassy will check the documents and then issue a paper stating that the foreigner truly has sufficient regular income from the business to meet our requirements.”

New to me was the allowance for income derived from a business outside Thailand to qualify for retirement as opposed to pension income.

-redwood

[Felt 35]

Capt Krissarat added that proof of guaranteed monthly income paid into a Thai bank account in the applicant’s name could also be used to prove that the applicant was financially sound. In this case the figures are 40,000 baht or 65,000 baht a month, respectively.

I guess this is the hard bit, and I don’t believe it will be like this in practise.

It was not for me, even if my income is far over the minimum.

[astral]

It is only what we have already surmised, but good to have it spelt out.

[eyebee]

There have been many cases in which bank accounts were almost empty just a few days after they showed the minimum required balance.

We suspect [that in these cases] people were borrowing money from friends so that they could meet the requirement on the day when we checked, then returning the money as soon as that had been accomplished. That is wrong.

It could also be that as Thai Banks pay no interest to farangs, the farang (quite wisely) moves his money to a bank that does pay interest, or invests it elsewhere.

It really tees me off that I don't get any interest - doesn't Thailand want farangs to invest here?

[lopburi3]

It could also be that as Thai Banks pay no interest to farangs, the farang (quite wisely) moves his money to a bank that does pay interest, or invests it elsewhere.

It really tees me off that I don't get any interest - doesn't Thailand want farangs to invest here?

Do you have a joint account with your wife?

[Thaiquila]

I have a few comments on these "clarifications":

-- I would think it would quite common for a bank account qualifier to fund the account before the visa renewal with an annual wire transfer, and then spend down those funds during the year because that is an readily accessible and non income earning pool of money, and then refund again soon before the application time. It is understandable that immigration might look at this pattern suspiciously. Wouldn't proof that the wire transfer came from abroad from your existing overseas account prove things are legit?

--I also found it interesting that income from overseas business was acceptable to meet financial requirements. That does sound new. Does anyone know if this income from overseas business must be due to silent partner (no active work) or passive investments (such as rents from real estate), or would it be OK to be totally open about still working actively for an overseas business, while still living in Thailand with a retirement visa? I asked this question before about being able to work for an overseas company, but this is another twist, using the income from the business as the qualifier for the retirement visa.

[Felt 35]

financially sound. In this case the figures are 40,000 baht or 65,000 baht a month, respectively.

At least I`m financially sound!

“Some foreigners have misunderstood the minimum balance requirement as meaning they would no longer be able to use their own money.

Looks as Immigration shall be our "Personal financial adviser"

Use your money like this, or.......

I would think it would quite common for a bank account qualifier to fund the account before the visa renewal with an annual wire transfer, and then spend down those funds during the year because that is an readily accessible and non income earning pool of money, and then refund again soon before the application time.

But this is not sound economic. Normally people live of their income, not savings.

[Thaiquila]

financially sound. In this case the figures are 40,000 baht or 65,000 baht a month, respectively.

At least I`m financially sound!

“Some foreigners have misunderstood the minimum balance requirement as meaning they would no longer be able to use their own money.

Looks as Immigration shall be our "Personal financial adviser"

Use your money like this, or.......

I would think it would quite common for a bank account qualifier to fund the account before the visa renewal with an annual wire transfer, and then spend down those funds during the year because that is an readily accessible and non income earning pool of money, and then refund again soon before the application time.

But this is not sound economic. Normally people live of their income, not savings.

Many retirees live heavily or completely off the investment income of their capital, which may include slowly drawing down their capital, which isn't as bad as it sounds if you can manage to outlive your money. What does "normal" have to do with it anyway? We are talking about what Thai immigration has in mind and how to stay in their good graces.

[lopburi3]

I would think it would quite common for a bank account qualifier to fund the account before the visa renewal with an annual wire transfer, and then spend down those funds during the year because that is an readily accessible and non income earning pool of money, and then refund again soon before the application time.

But this is not sound economic. Normally people live of their income, not savings.

Unless exempt by treaty money coming into Thailand is subject to income tax. Savings from a previous year is not taxed under current policy. Believe most live on savings.

[menostay]

--I also found it interesting that income from overseas business was acceptable to meet financial requirements. That does sound new. Does anyone know if this income from overseas business must be due to silent partner (no active work) or passive investments (such as rents from real estate), or would it be OK to be totally open about still working actively for an overseas business, while still living in Thailand with a retirement visa? I asked this question before about being able to work for an overseas company, but this is another twist, using the income from the business as the qualifier for the retirement visa.

____________________________________________________________________

My visa was issued in LA and the sole financial information submitted to them was a notarized letter from an officer in a US bank. The letter stated that I had banked there for a number of years and that my monthly pay had always been above $______. I had an account in a Thai bank at that time with the required amount of 800,000 on deposit but it was unknown to immigration and they did not ask.

I thought that I was treated well. I was under the impression that I had to go to immigration after 90 days and apply for the retirement extension. When I went there on another matter a well mannered officer pointed out to me that I had the extension in my passport and it was given to me on arrival at Don Muang.

In my case the proof of financial responsibility came from the bank and was based on their knowledge of my monthly income. Hope this is helpful.

[Felt 35]

What does "normal" have to do with it anyway? We are talking about what Thai immigration has in mind and how to stay in their good graces.

Thaiquila your right. What does normal have to do with it!

[Thaiquila]

I would think it would quite common for a bank account qualifier to fund the account before the visa renewal with an annual wire transfer, and then spend down those funds during the year because that is an readily accessible and non income earning pool of money, and then refund again soon before the application time.

But this is not sound economic. Normally people live of their income, not savings.

Unless exempt by treaty money coming into Thailand is subject to income tax. Savings from a previous year is not taxed under current policy. Believe most live on savings.

Can you clarify this point a little further. (Maybe this got muddled because I mixed the questions with the idea of also working in Thailand for a US company.)

Scenario:

US person in Thailand on retirement visa.

Bank account in Thailand, investment accounts in the US. US taxes paid on all taxable events on the US investments (dividend tax, interest income tax, capital gains on stock sales tax). In this example, the initial capital in these investments and accounts would all have been earned in previous years.

800k baht per year (for example) transfered by wire from US bank to Thai bank account (so that there is always 800K for visa requirement).

Spending down the Thai bank account every year, and replenishing every year with US funds.

Question:

In this scenario, because the initial capital used to earn investment income was all earned in previous years, there would be no Thai tax owed, correct?

Thanks in advance for clarifying this point.

[lopburi3]

I am not a tax expert by any means so can only say that I don't believe you would have any problems under current policy. PWC is probably one of the best sources and they have a good deal of information on web site and also for sale in books. It is intended for business users but many items apply to everyone.

[astral]

Scenario:

US person in Thailand on retirement visa.

Bank account in Thailand, investment accounts in the US. US taxes paid on all taxable events on the US investments (dividend tax, interest income tax, capital gains on stock sales tax). In this example, the initial capital in these investments and accounts would all have been earned in previous years.

800k baht per year (for example) transfered by wire from US bank to Thai bank account (so that there is always 800K for visa requirement).

Spending down the Thai bank account every year, and replenishing every year with US funds.

Question:

In this scenario, because the initial capital used to earn investment income was all earned in previous years, there would be no Thai tax owed, correct?

Thanks in advance for clarifying this point.

I would assume that the USA has a dual tax treaty with Thailand, just as the UK does.

Therefore you assumption is true.

Good idea to keep your tax return for each year, just in case anyone asks

but they are unlikely to.

[harpman88]

It could also be that as Thai Banks pay no interest to farangs, the farang (quite wisely) moves his money to a bank that does pay interest, or invests it elsewhere.

Ive always received interest on my passbook acct. at BKK bank since opening the acct. in the early 1990s.

Has the law changed? Am I in for a rude awakening when I return to LOS early next year and update my acct?

This is certainly a new one on me!

[eyebee]

Firstly to lopburi3 - I ain't married, so no chance of getting a joint account. I don't think I'd ever open a joint account with a Thai woman anyway (even if married) - I reckon it would be emptied faster than you could say Jack Robinson!

And to harpman88: I think the law was changed around last October/November. I certainly am getting no interest now from the Thai Military Bank. Other members are reporting that they still do get interest, but I don't know what banks they are with. I still think this is a very unfair law - and I don't know the reason for it.

[ka12345]

And to harpman88: I think the law was changed around last October/November. I certainly am getting no interest now from the Thai Military Bank. Other members are reporting that they still do get interest, but I don't know what banks they are with. I still think this is a very unfair law - and I don't know the reason for it.

I doubt it is law. Maybe something a couple of banks came up with on their own. Or maybe just for 'tourist' accounts with no tax id no on file...? I still get interest on my Bank of Asia account...

30/06/2004 INTEREST EARNED

[camerata]

It could also be that as Thai Banks pay no interest to farangs, the farang (quite wisely) moves his money to a bank that does pay interest, or invests it elsewhere.

It really tees me off that I don't get any interest - doesn't Thailand want farangs to invest here?

As of this June I am still getting interest on my Bangkok Bank and Bank of Asia accounts.

[harpman88]

To Ka and Camerata:Thanx for your imput. Looks like Thai Military Bank has some explaining to do .

To Eyebee: If you inquire to your bank's management,Id love to know

what they tell you!,All the best,the Harpman

[mbkudu]

I think it really depends on the account. A savings account should always earn interest as mine does at Kasikorn (Thai Farmers) and has for the past few years.

[Rinrada]

As of this June I am still getting interest on my Bangkok Bank and Bank of Asia accounts.

Yes ...same here..but not as good a rate I used to get in the early 90s.

[Khun ?]

like menostay puts it just leave the minimum amount in the bank and do

not withdrawl it. Most that retire to a foreign country should have no problems with this. This has always been my plans and I will live off my ATM keeping my money invested back home. If they need to know how you are living without drawing money out of local account show them your annual bank statement from back home and it should have all ATM withdrawls made in Thailand. If you do not have the cash get a loan back home being you have the income to pay it back over whatever time frame and leave it in a the thai bank for ever till Thailand do you part.

[Khun ?]

like menostay puts it just leave the minimum amount in the bank and do

not withdrawl it. Most that retire to a foreign country should have no problems with this. This has always been my plans and I will live off my ATM keeping my money invested back home. If they need to know how you are living without drawing money out of local account show them your annual bank statement from back home and it should have all ATM withdrawls made in Thailand. If you do not have the cash get a loan back home being you have the income to pay it back over whatever time frame and leave it in a the thai bank for ever till Thailand do you part.

[lopburi3]

like menostay puts it just leave the minimum amount in the bank and do

not withdrawl it. Most that retire to a foreign country should have no problems with this. This has always been my plans and I will live off my ATM keeping my money invested back home. If they need to know how you are living without drawing money out of local account show them your annual bank statement from back home and it should have all ATM withdrawls made in Thailand. If you do not have the cash get a loan back home being you have the income to pay it back over whatever time frame and leave it in a the thai bank for ever till Thailand do you part.

At your own risk. As immigration has pointed out repeatedly they have no interest in atm use and will not consider it for immigration visa proof of funds transfer. The only time they will normally accept this use is for tourists on tourist visas. What they do want to see is the money being used and replaced on a regular basis.

[Thaiquila]

like menostay puts it just leave the minimum amount in the bank and do

not withdrawl it. Most that retire to a foreign country should have no problems with this. This has always been my plans and I will live off my ATM keeping my money invested back home. If they need to know how you are living without drawing money out of local account show them your annual bank statement from back home and it should have all ATM withdrawls made in Thailand. If you do not have the cash get a loan back home being you have the income to pay it back over whatever time frame and leave it in a the thai bank for ever till Thailand do you part.

At your own risk. As immigration has pointed out repeatedly they have no interest in atm use and will not consider it for immigration visa proof of funds transfer. The only time they will normally accept this use is for tourists on tourist visas. What they do want to see is the money being used and replaced on a regular basis.

That is interesting and sounds credible.

However, being a skeptical person, I have question.

Anyone on the board who has done this, kept a stable amount in their Thai bank account, ATMed in all their funds, and attempted to get an extension for a one year visa based on this?

If so, were you accepted, rejected, told to never do it again or else, or what else?

[Khun ?]

For a married person you are only talking 400K baht. If immigration

half thought out the situation it would be required to have the amount in

savings. How many and what type of person retires in a foreign country with no savings. Surely not the ones Thailand is looking to attract.

Anways if you don't have it borrow the money from back home using your monthly income and pay it back in 2 years. If you are retiring and have no savings what to he11 have you been doing all your life. Your a liability waiting to happen.