Would You Pay A Bribe

[Begs]

[Axel]

Axel,

I'm guessing your son goes to an expensive international school, or a very, very reputable (posh) Thai school? If not I doubt all the teachers were properly WPed etc. up!

Yes, kenkannif, RIS Swiss Section in Minburi where he graduated 3 years ago and got his degree as per Switzerland requirements.

Where else could I have sent him? Nobody in our family has a Thai p/port and btw, nobody paid me for the school fees, had to do from my own pocket.

Just did a quick check. According

http://www.isat.or.th/index.cgi?l=en&p=sch...ch&c=bkk&q=&o=0

there are 43 schools in Bangkok. Don't think that they all hire without WP but probably as well ask for teaching certification.

Now back to the original question. No, I would not pay a bribe to work illegally, neither as a teacher nor in any other profession.

As much as I like living (and working) in LoS why should I force myself to come here, if the government does not accept my qualifications nor would the income be sufficient to do a bit more than survive?

There might be exceptions to people who by all means want to come to Thailand, usually wife, GF, but than again, I would first try to find a legal job or ask my wife to settle somewhere else.

[kenkannif]

Fair enough Axel!

Sorry I wasn't aware of your circumstances (i.e. I assumed and wrongly that your kid may be half Thai!). Yes, the 'good' International schools will generally recruit from abroad and get all the paperwork need together ASAP! Although it wouldn't surprise me if there's a slight delay (and again I may well be wrong) between being 100% legit and actually working here!

[Ijustwannateach]

There are very few schools in Thailand where one is able to start working with completely clean paperwork. Theoretically, the process begins a few months before the teacher is needed and the non-imm. B is issued in order to begin the whole shuffle. In process, there are almost no *Thai-managed* schools which can actually function in this way. I don't get angry about it anymore, but it's a simple fact that no school here can do anything of importance before the last minute. Part of it is the lack of ability of anyone below the director (who is always absent or busy) to make a decision; part of it is the inability of the government to stick to one curriculum; part of it is the last-minute financial decisions that get made by administrations greedy for that last baht who wait until the first day of classes (and after) to issue class lists; part of it is the way cheap labour makes it easy for Thai personnel offices to assume there will be people to fill positions anytime they want (never seem to make that supply/demand connection about the scarcity of qualified farang).

Because the process sometimes only starts at the moment of hiring, which is sometimes only a week before classes actually start, it is almost inevitable at most schools that teachers will be teaching technically illegally for at least a short period of time. This assumes that the school is not lying about its intention to give a work permit to the employee (and what recourse does he have to hold the school to its word, since he is already working illegally?) Now, in a normal country, employers who exploited immigrants this way might themselves be held more accountable than the immigrants.

Yes, yes, it's wrong, of course, and no teacher should ever work a moment without a work permit. Yawwwwwwwwwwwwnnn...................

By the way, it's become apparent that there are certain posters of no value here. Is there an ignore feature or killfile function on this forum? Don't need detailed instructions, just someone point the way if there is one.

"Steven"

[Yohan]

Difficult to understand the situation.

On one hand the Thai laws do have certain requirements, before granting

permission to stay and a work permit. Perhaps these rules might be harsh or outdated, but it seems to me only language teachers having a problem with these laws........

This is not the case, Axel....not only the language teachers....

As one poster said correctly, many foreigners are married to a Thai wife, but this does not include any working permit.... they are supposed to bring money into Thailand, to live here with the Thai wife, but are not allowed to work....

Spouse visa does not include any working permit in Thailand, even not part-time.

Another group are retired foreigners, they have already to prove, that they have enough money to live here, but they would like to do something....

Retirement visa does not include any working permit in Thailand, even not part-time.

Students have to pay for all and everything, regarding to their education, not so little, by the way...however to qualify as a foreign student in Thailand, you should only pay and study, but you are not allowed to work in Thailand even part-time....

Still Thailand is considering by their Immigration Laws every foreigner as rich, and the own country in the poverty-line. - This might have been true 50 or 80 years ago, but to catch up to become a developed nation, they have to do something about such outdated regulations....

Many foreigners cannot live with such regulations, because Thailand is cheap, but not so cheap anymore -

About 'language teacher' 'travel agency tourist guide' 'real estate agent' and so on.... many foreigners are working illegal in Thailand in such professions to earn some extra money, I have some understandings for their situation. This work is mostly benefitting Thai touristik business or young Thai people, who like to study more English (or other languages) in a not too expensive way.

Why not? May I ask again: What is wrong with that? Why not?

We see in this Thaivisa-Forum, many foreigners have a lot of questions about visa-regulations....trying to find a possible legal way between these old laws ......

I can only say, that various old and outdated Thai Laws concerning foreigners require an urgent overhaul to become acceptable by today's international society.

And let me say it in this way: A really VERY RICH foreigner does not need Thailand... he will settle down and retire somewhere else.....Hawaii, France, Japan, USA......and he will not work as a language teacher....

The vast majority coming into Thailand and who like to stay here for a longer time, are people, who for sure are not loaded with money. Thai government should adjust the Immigration Law and offer more tolerance to foreigners, whose income is not that of an expat.

[Harry Palmer]

IJWT,

Be the bigger (and better) man mate! Hopefully he'll leave this part of the forum alone.

This thread was (is?) going okay and I'd like to keep it open, but will lock it if need be.

It's about teaching in Thailand (illegally or not!).

no lock it now... it's getting overheated...

[bluebear]

back to the original question.

No, I wouldnt pay a bribe, it would be far more likely that it would be the school ( goverment or language ) that would pay.

[astral]

If the teacher has valid qualifications then they should be paid

a reasonable salary ( the lower limit for teachers is pretty low anyway, compared to other jobs), then there would be no need for a bribe.

It also weeds out the unqualified ones.

[RamdomChances]

ok a bit off subject, I posted this a while back on a thread from a man with no insurance on his motorbike and was being given a hard time for "breaking the law"

We run a 6 wheel lorry(truck), which is only a year and a half old and perfectly legal, we dont even run overloaded (which makes it extremly difficullt ot be profitable as everyone else does).

If I did'nt pay bribes it would be impossible to do buissiness, every police station on our route (exept the local one) gets money every month (only about 20bht but they get this from a lot of people and the more ilegal you are the more you pay).

If I did'nt pay I could chose to go to court, with the lorry impounded until the outcome, or they could just say that they thought you were over weight and would have to go to a weigh bridge, taking mabye half a day.

In short even if I was not prosecuted for anything it would be impossible to do buissines.

So I break the law nearly everyday, should I also be deported, if so what should happen to all the Thais that pay bribe's and the police that take them?

Thailand has not got enough jails to keep them all.

(legal dissclaimer All the above is made up and false, its a fictional story honest)

Ok Its nothing to do with teaching but I cant belive anybody who lives here can put their hand on their heart and say that they are 100% legal all the time, and yes I do pay bribes every month just to stay in buissiness.

I dont have to pay bribes for the cow's though

[Axel]

@ Yohan:

We are in the 'Teaching in Thailand Forum'. So my point 'only language teachers' refers to teachers in general. Not so much to retirees, spouses etc.

The minimum salaries for Americans/Canadians is Baht 60K, for Europeans and Australians 50K, or at least the tax-office expects to get income tax on these amounts.

If somebody works for an English language school I have no idea about the income and mind you such income is for renewal of the permission to stay, required by the immigration department, not for the WP.

Neither do I remember the teachers' salaries paid in RIS (or ICB NIST etc). I do remeber, the principal was qualified to teach maths, Latin, French and German for all grade. Another long time teacher had qualifications to teach up to grade 6

(abt. 12 yo) English, German, biology, European history etc.

Anyway, I have no experience in teaching except knowing some teachers incl. English language teachers, native speakers???

Just realized splitlid opened a new thread

Why Teach In Thailand?

was that your intention?

perhaps more answers will come from there.

[mbkudu]

Axel, there is a special exemption from the income requirements for teachers and also journalists I believe. Is this exemption there perhaps because the government

is fully aware that the wages for teachers are piss poor? If the government was strict about the 60,000 baht income requirement for teachers, they would have every language school from Silom to Ramkamhaeng banging down their office doors with clubs and flame throwers. They couldn't afford (or would not pay) to pay teachers that much. Thai students could not afford to pay the tuition fees.

This exemtion to me is a convenient way for the government to save a little face and still attract affordable teachers to Thailand without resorting to too much corruption (bribes). Let me put it this way: Teachers are not pushing heroine, engaging in human smuggling, running brothels thinly desguised as go-go bars,

importing goods without paying tax; they are teaching for ##### sake!

I believe the answer to this problem is simple. Scrap the requirement for a degree, however, strictly require a TEFL or CELTA. This should be for teaching

English as a second language or foreign language only, as these certificates intend.

Any teacher who applies at a university or international school where they will teaching students whose native language is English, should have the degree and be under stricter hiring guidelines.

The government could easily rectify the problems we have been discussing, but there is always an ulterior motive for everything; could it be money (bribes)?

[Axel]

Thanks mbkudu. I knew journalists are at Baht 20K. Didn't know the exemption for teachers.

[mbkudu]

I think for teachers it may be around 25,000-30,000 but not sure. What's up with journalists? Are they eating chicken feed for lunch?

[astral]

Let's face it most journalists are not worth any more.

Teachers should be better paid.

[Begs]

Teachers should be better paid.

Only those with the correct qualifications and work permits.

As for the backpackers that have run out of money, Alcoholics that have run out of Alcohol, Junkies that have run out of Junk, who use English Teaching as a fraudulent way to stay in Thailand come what may, let them earn the same as a Thai Teacher earns. 7 - 10,000 Baht a month, and pay tax.

[kenkannif]

And those qualifications are? Should be?

And a word to the wise, Thai teachers generally earn a little bit more (sometimes quite a lot more) than that!

[Ijustwannateach]

I think this thread has gone off-topic. No one has spoken of paying bribes, for or against, in some time- and I think there were only one or two posters who even mentioned it.

"Steven"

P.S. Incidentally, it makes no sense to pay a bribe to work illegally (which has 2 double L's, in case anyone's counting). It would only make sense to pay bribes to work LEGALLY (that is, if one needed to do so). Never heard of anyone doing so in either Thailand or Japan- this would be, as Ken has mentioned, a SCHOOL level process.

[kenkannif]

Okay as Bkk Barney has started a similar thread (that's 4 now) I shall indeed lock this. If you think it should be unlocked, please drop me a PM!