Bible Thumpers, Proselytizers Special Visa Or Voa?

[dominique355]

In the grand scheme of things, the human brain is far too primitive and limited to arrive at an answer.The mere existence of deity oriented religions is the epitomy of human arrogance.

Actually, it's the human brain, which created god in the first place. Religions are man-made, not the other way round.

[Dustoff]

In the grand scheme of things, the human brain is far too primitive and limited to arrive at an answer.The mere existence of deity oriented religions is the epitomy of human arrogance.

May we assume that you also have one of those primitive brains between your ears? Me too..

I wouldn't use the same terminology but I do find it a bit arrogant that man would create his god in his image (yeah, yeah, I know). For me it gets even more arrogant when we humans claim that this deity is "on our side" (see Bush, GW) whenever we choose to perpetrate ungodly violence upon one another.

I am not sure that finding 'the answers' is the problem as much as our capacity to ask inane questions, eh? If there is a god who gave us free will, perhaps he could have given us a bit more intelligence to make reasoned choices, don't you think?

Oops, off topic.. Okay, okay, from my humble point of view, thumpers and bashers (whatever the argument/discussion) are merely opposite sides of the same coin and function only to diminish its overall value. We get so locked into the imagined superiority of our one-sided opinions that we completely lose touch with the fact that there is a middle ground and that if we as a species cannot learn to play well together, the game becomes little more than the killing fields.

Without respect for one another, we got nuthin'...

[meadish_sweetball]

elocutions, meadish

You'll have to come up with something else

It might not be the right word to use in the context, but it is an English word... the Firefox spellchecker doesn't recognize it though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allocution

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/allocution

http://m-w.com/dictionary/allocution

[Dustoff]

They lost interest in me when I said I was keen on polygamy and that's why I ordered the book.

That's a good one. Lets all order the book and waste their time and money.

Better yet.. Recently out in paperback is "The GOD Delusion" by Richard Dawkins that is an excellent read!

Profound and timely...

[kankaroo]

They lost interest in me when I said I was keen on polygamy and that's why I ordered the book.

That's a good one. Lets all order the book and waste their time and money.

Better yet.. Recently out in paperback is "The GOD Delusion" by Richard Dawkins that is an excellent read!

Profound and timely...

Yes, and if you can't be bothered reading it you can watch the 2hr documentary he made based on the book called "The Root Of All Evil" it will be on youtube or somewhere out there on the web.

[TheExpat]

I think we have stumbled upon the next great LOOPHOLE. Immigration authorities, take note!

I am under the impression that to these sort of fundamentalists, Buddhism is the devil's work, so again you have to admire Thai tolerance for allowing this to go on.

Bingo, it's like a shining light, a revalation. Therefore, me, if without a work permit, at 41 yrs and the sole guardian and father of my 2 daughters (both Thai citizens) I will be unceromonsously marched to the airport and told to leave within 15 days of leaving a my job!!!! I'm converted, where can I find god......... I'm gonna buy one of them bicycles, does anyone know the make and model. I think I can get the little nametags made at Robinson's. Gotta find me a church, CM-happy, anyone, can you recommend a church!!!

Not going to happen. There are only a certain number of Religious VISA's available. I beleive the Thai govt. holds it at 400. To qualify for one, you have to be proficient in reading, writing and speaking Thai at a 6th grade level. You also have to have one of the five approved religious organizations sponsor you. There is a five year waiting list for religiouis VISA's. The JW's, Catholics, Mormons, Evangelic Fellowship of Thailand and one other one (forgot the name) have the Religious Visas tied up with their own people. To get one, you have to wait until one comes available - the of death or the retiring of a VISA holder.

However, it is not true (as suggested in these posts) that a person has to have a work permit to pass out literature, have Bible studies in a house, or share their faith with people in Thailand. A work permit is needed to have a full fledged church with has to be registered with the Thai govt. and have a minimum of 50 members.

It might shock you to know that Thais respond to learning about Jesus Christ and the Bible at a much greater rate than is seen in Europe, America, Australia etc.

[Jingthing]

It might shock you to know that Thais respond to learning about Jesus Christ and the Bible at a much greater rate than is seen in Europe, America, Australia etc.

It doesn't shock me.

Are you dissing the Thais?

Anyone, thanks for providing what sounds like authoritative info on the visa situation. Oh Christ!, another loophole down the drain.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[TheExpat]

It might shock you to know that Thais respond to learning about Jesus Christ and the Bible at a much greater rate than is seen in Europe, America, Australia etc.

It doesn't shock me.

Are you dissing the Thais?

Anyone, thanks for providing what sounds like authoritative info on the visa situation. Oh Christ!, another loophole down the drain.

What do you mean dissing Thais? When?

My wife has a VISA service for foreigners that want VISA's for here and for Thais going to the US. So I hear it all!

[Jingthing]

Attempt at a joke. It is bad form to explain jokes, so as I never post anything in bad taste, I will let it pass.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[canuckamuck]

Almost all of the missionaries I have met here have come here at their own expense and raise their own support. They spend their time helping out at children's homes or working with refugees, drug addicts, prostitutes, street kids, some bring food to prisoners and spend a bit of time with them. Most of them help fundraise for good works projects; the money comes from outside of Thailand.

A friend of mine used to help imprisoned expats get help to talk to their embassies to maybe find a way out of the system or help them arrange airfare.

Most of these people become fairly proficient with the Thai language and live peaceably in the community and have great respect amongst their neighbors. Most of them have work permits to work with whatever foundation they are connected.

Yeah I can see why the government should be afraid of these folks.

As far as the screaming evangelists go, I think you are all talking about one specific team that shows up there once in a while. I am sure they are not the only thing in Nana that is loud and offensive to others.

PS: if you are going to group such diverse groups together as Mormons, Catholics, and Mennonites, independent Christians, and JW's. You might as well include Islam, Faloong Gong, Moonies, and Satanic cults in the mix.

It's like racism, except I guess it's PC when it's religions

[meemiathai]

For those still do not have faith, I hope God won't abandon you.

Here is another miracle which is unusual coz it is done in the modern days.

See? God loves you!

[jstumbo]

All others? Nazis? Ku Klux Klan?

No, I am not saying that Mormons are as bad as those groups, so chill out.

I also see a difference between peaceful believers and militant converters. Of course, other religions are militant as well, Islam being the obvious one to mention, which has grown like gangbusters all over the world especially in Africa.

With groups like the Mormons there is a catch 22. Of course, religious tolerance is a wonderful thing, but part of their religion is active conversions. Tricky and difficult because I think for a country like Thailand to allow that kind of foreign group actually takes tolerance too far.

It is kind of funny about the Jews, who under no circumstances actively convert, yet have had so many problems with persecution. Maybe they would have been smarter to follow the Mormon model.

edit: decided against this post, probably would have gotten me in trouble.

Edited November 30, 2007 by jstumbo

[Jingthing]

As far as religious people who come here to do good works, I admire any good works, but frankly I would admire them more if they did it for the sake of HUMANITY rather than to please their God and with an agenda of CONVERSIONS.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Jingthing

[Interman]

Just want to add what I have seen in Thailand consering the christian faith.

There are lots of Church's in Thailand, and many converts from being apart from God to being reconciled to Him.

And most of these converts come from the Thais who have embrased God himself not from mission's.

If anyone on this form is going to insult the people who bring the truth and actual help and support to those in need, maybe you should look at the Thais point of view since you are in Thailand instead of the western athiast point of wiew.

Ask a Thai about religion and you will hear this "Took sesena sawn hi khun dii": Every religion teaches us to be good.

[corkscrew]

For those still do not have faith, I hope God won't abandon you.

Here is another miracle which is unusual coz it is done in the modern days.

See? God loves you!

And, can you imagine how easy it was to fool people back in 33AD? Switching jugs of water for jugs of wine! Getting a pal to play a blind man and then giving him sight. Too bad nobody challenged him to restore the limb of someone without a leg.

[Interman]

As far as religious people who come here to do good works, I admire any good works, but frankly I would admire them more if they did it for the sake of HUMANITY rather than to please their God and with an agenda of CONVERSIONS.

Well then,,

Admire away, ....

most 99% of Christians will tell you that it is not our work that converts people but Gods will. We just send the messege. There really is no hidden agenda.

[Jingthing]

Interman, to a certainly extent I respect your faith, but I simply don't believe YOU.

Just look at the history of missions.

In South America. In California. Do yourself a favor and visit the Catholic torture museum in Lima Peru and then you might understand where I am coming from.

Look at what is going on today in the name of Islam as well.

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see missions as a pure good. I see them as having big conditions.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Jingthing

[Interman]

Interman, to a certainly extent I respect your faith, but I simply don't believe YOU.

Just look at the history of missions.

In South America. In California. Do yourself a favor and visit the Catholic torture museum in Lima Peru and then you might understand where I am coming from.

Look at what is going on today in the name of Islam as well.

Yes,, it is sad what man has done and what it continues to do.

Be assured that those will get what they deserve. And know that God most likely feels the same way about those mentioned torture museum's.

If you dont want to beleive me, that is fine, but try to look at every good thing that is done as every good and perfect will is from above.

I dont want to get punted from this site or a closing of this thread, so if you want, we can debate by email.

[Jingthing]

There is no such thing as a RATIONAL argument between someone of FAITH and an atheist or agnostic (as I am), so I think I'll pass, but you do sound like a good person.

However, you can't ASSURE me of anything. It is just your faith based on blind belief.

What does such a debate consist of?

I believe in God.

I don't see any proof and no human can offer any proof, so I can't believe.

That is pretty much it.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Jingthing

[camerata]

I mean come on, the Nana crowd (or the likes) converting ? maybe sometime in later life, but can you imagine them getting even ONE convert there, on the night, ever ?

According to Bro. Tony, the evangelist who hangs out at Nana Plaza, conversion is not the goal. He is there simply to "bear witness" to the Gospel. It's enough that sinners hear it, they don't have to listen to it, understand it or believe it. That's why it's like a one-way data dump at 120 decibels.

[PeaceBlondie]

Indeed, that's Brother Tony's approach, and some Christians feel it is not effective evangelism.

Sometimes, with some people, religious folks can't win. Their religion tells them to do good, and then they're condemned by nonbelievers because they do good.

[GuestHouse]

I find the reactions here curious.

There are far worse things happening in Nana Plaza than the sight, sound and presence of 'Christians'.

Why then the objection to the Christians? Especially from people who are telling us they don't believe in god or the message the Christians are standing witness to?

If as people here say, the Christian message means nothing to them, then they would surely not be wasting time posting here.

There is clearly something in what the Christians are saying. If there was not, they would be able to ignore it.

The posts here are evidence that they cannot.

[edit - grammar correction]

Edited November 30, 2007 by GuestHouse

[TheExpat]

Do Bible thumpers or proselytizers have a special visa for them to work in LOS, or are they here generally just on a VOA? If only on a VOA, don't think I've ever heard of one getting caught in an immigration sweep for working illegally.

They seem to be pretty much ignored by the authorities and allowed to go about their business annoying others, despite, if here on VOA, working here illegally.

Others thoughts??

From my earlier post:

"However, it is not true (as suggested in these posts) that a person has to have a work permit to pass out literature, have Bible studies in a house, or share their faith with people in Thailand. A work permit is needed to have a full fledged church with has to be registered with the Thai govt. and have a minimum of 50 members."

Sharing of ones faith doe snot require a work permit. It is on the same lines as discussing politics, or trying to persuade your buddies to go yo Chester Grill instead of KFC.

Just like anywhere in the world, you can discuss anything - politics, foorball, rugby, cricket, or the best Pizza place in Bangkok. If you are going to say that someone needs a WP to share their faith with another person, then you are essentailly saying that anyone that holds a conversation about anythin where thoughts differ would need a WP as ell. So amy of us that live here in the LOS and post are opinion here also need a WP. Or someone that lives here that helps the poor or homeless needs a WP. Or by dropping 10 baht in a cup or stopping by an orhanage and donates money or gives some toys some kids demands that a person gets a WP. I just do not see the reason in that.

Now if they are selling Bibles, Christian books, Chritsian videos, and T- shirts that have Bible Verses on them then that would require a WP.

Also as I said, a foreigner needs a Religious VISA and a WP if he rents a building and starts a full fledged church.

Having a Bible study in ones home is the same as having some Thais or farangs over for dinner, to watch football or play cards......although by saying that, I am not saying those things are as important as God.

[TheExpat]

I th9ink that it the fact they are feeling a need to do something of others or give back to the community that they live in. One can't deny that we all have wondered why we are here and for what reason? Also where will we go when we die? I wonder if a person is telling the truth when they say that those questions have nere croosed their mind.

That is another subject that I never intended to bring up.

I only posted in response to questions about Religious VISA's and the need for work permits.

edited due to posting problem which resulted in the above being deleted!

Edited November 30, 2007 by TheExpat

[corkscrew]

Do Bible thumpers or proselytizers have a special visa for them to work in LOS, or are they here generally just on a VOA? If only on a VOA, don't think I've ever heard of one getting caught in an immigration sweep for working illegally.

They seem to be pretty much ignored by the authorities and allowed to go about their business annoying others, despite, if here on VOA, working here illegally.

Others thoughts??

From my earlier post:

"However, it is not true (as suggested in these posts) that a person has to have a work permit to pass out literature, have Bible studies in a house, or share their faith with people in Thailand. A work permit is needed to have a full fledged church with has to be registered with the Thai govt. and have a minimum of 50 members."

Sharing of ones faith doe snot require a work permit. It is on the same lines as discussing politics, or trying to persuade your buddies to go yo Chester Grill instead of KFC.

Just like anywhere in the world, you can discuss anything - politics, foorball, rugby, cricket, or the best Pizza place in Bangkok. If you are going to say that someone needs a WP to share their faith with another person, then you are essentailly saying that anyone that holds a conversation about anythin where thoughts differ would need a WP as ell. So amy of us that live here in the LOS and post are opinion here also need a WP. Or someone that lives here that helps the poor or homeless needs a WP. Or by dropping 10 baht in a cup or stopping by an orhanage and donates money or gives some toys some kids demands that a person gets a WP. I just do not see the reason in that.

Now if they are selling Bibles, Christian books, Chritsian videos, and T- shirts that have Bible Verses on them then that would require a WP.

Also as I said, a foreigner needs a Religious VISA and a WP if he rents a building and starts a full fledged church.

Having a Bible study in ones home is the same as having some Thais or farangs over for dinner, to watch football or play cards......although by saying that, I am not saying those things are as important as God.

Cards trump god anyday.

[corkscrew]

Trying to "spread the word of god" is bad enough when the targets are adults. However, it is nothing more than child abuse when these lies are told to children.

[jstumbo]

From my earlier post:

"However, it is not true (as suggested in these posts) that a person has to have a work permit to pass out literature, have Bible studies in a house, or share their faith with people in Thailand. A work permit is needed to have a full fledged church with has to be registered with the Thai govt. and have a minimum of 50 members."

Sharing of ones faith doe snot require a work permit. It is on the same lines as discussing politics, or trying to persuade your buddies to go yo Chester Grill instead of KFC.

Just like anywhere in the world, you can discuss anything - politics, foorball, rugby, cricket, or the best Pizza place in Bangkok. If you are going to say that someone needs a WP to share their faith with another person, then you are essentailly saying that anyone that holds a conversation about anythin where thoughts differ would need a WP as ell. So amy of us that live here in the LOS and post are opinion here also need a WP. Or someone that lives here that helps the poor or homeless needs a WP. Or by dropping 10 baht in a cup or stopping by an orhanage and donates money or gives some toys some kids demands that a person gets a WP. I just do not see the reason in that.

Now if they are selling Bibles, Christian books, Chritsian videos, and T- shirts that have Bible Verses on them then that would require a WP.

Also as I said, a foreigner needs a Religious VISA and a WP if he rents a building and starts a full fledged church.

Having a Bible study in ones home is the same as having some Thais or farangs over for dinner, to watch football or play cards......although by saying that, I am not saying those things are as important as God.

But if I have a club and I have people that belong to the club go to Nana Plaza and stand on the corner and promote my club, try to get people to join my club, would they not be working?

What if I send them door to door, knocking on doors and introducing my club.

Or what if thaivisa.com wanted to increase their readership? And they got a group of people together that went door to door and talked to all the other foreigners in Thailand and talked about what kind of information they could find on thaivisa.com? Would they call that work?

Edited November 30, 2007 by jstumbo

[meemiathai]

As far as religious people who come here to do good works, I admire any good works, but frankly I would admire them more if they did it for the sake of HUMANITY rather than to please their God and with an agenda of CONVERSIONS.

There are quite a few things we agreed on!

[buffcoat]

I find the reactions here curious.

There are far worse things happening in Nana Plaza than the sight, sound and presence of 'Christians'.

Why then the objection to the Christians? Especially from people who are telling us they don't believe in god or the message the Christians are standing witness to?

If as people here say, the Christian message means nothing to them, then they would surely not be wasting time posting here.

There is clearly something in what the Christians are saying. If there was not, they would be able to ignore it.

The posts here are evidence that they cannot.

[edit - grammar correction]

Some of the objection comes from the belief that the Xtian religion (particularly that version presented by the fundamentalist evangelical movement) is a negative thing since it encapsulates hatred for other religions (The Buddha is a devil), other brands of Xtianity ,homosexuals (who should be put to death!!!!) and other minority groups.

Some Xtians are fluffy bunny hippy types who think having cucumber sandwiches with the vicar is pretty racy and I have no problem with them at all but the hardcore fundamentalists peddle hatred under the banner of religion and were they in power they would not allow Buddhists or anyone else the freedom to practise (let alone preach about) their beliefs.

Were it up to me that group of Xtians would have their permits revoked and be booted out of Thailand.

[JimsKnight]

I think Taksin Shinawatra did more harm to Thailand in ten years than all the missionaries have ever done.

And I think he did more GOOD to Thailand than all the PM's before him.

IMO that's BS, speaking to the old timers this place was the golden age until Toxin came along.

The good Bible bashers are ok in my book and add to the colour of Thailand, they don't do any harm and are typically quite wise.

It's the bad bible bashers that annoy the hel_l out of me. Unfriendly and abrasive to debate and criticism.