Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

[Ping]

I think some people must be a bit thin skinned. When someone in a shop, etc, indicates a customer is present by saying 'farang' I see it just as it was intended. The point being made (above) that they wouldn't call out 'Thai' about a native customer is valid, but there is certainly no loss of face intended and in its own way, I find this quaint practice somewhat endearing. In general use, I have no problem whatsoever with use of the term - it is just the local way of doing things (with no offence intended). Let's not be too PC about all this, please! Nonetheless, I have certainly been aware of occasions where locals have been speaking down about someone in the use of the word, despite the fact that my Thai language skills are quite limited.

Edit: Howtoescape's post arrived while I was writing this and I was not referring to his absurd assertion about waitresses going to tables and handing them to you whilst saying 'Farang'

Edited December 1, 2007 by Ping

[asiaworld]

Well well boys. May i presume all of those accepting the use of F..... word also happy about every other aspect of thai life/culture, that comes directly from your "special" position in this society ; be it double pricing, being oficial alien,doing visa runs, being unable to naturalise, even get proper residency rights here. Being fleeced by your thai theerak's & wondering , when they move on from you were you any more than ATM for them ..

Don't went your anger on posters like me.. think about it carefully, one thing leads to another, & unless you adress the route of the problem, don't dream about changing the consequences of it

[WaiWai]

Well well boys. May i presume all of those accepting the use of F..... word also happy about every other aspect of thai life/culture, that comes directly from your "special" position in this society ; be it double pricing, being oficial alien,doing visa runs, being unable to naturalise, even get proper residency rights here. Being fleeced by your thai theerak's & wondering , when they move on from you were you any more than ATM for them ..

Don't went your anger on posters like me.. think about it carefully, one thing leads to another, & unless you adress the route of the problem, don't dream about changing the consequences of it

That is a good point.

[qualtrough]

During a cross cultural session with members of our staff that had been scheduled in response to a blantent case of racism, the subject of 'Respectful and Disrespectful Langauge' came up.

The term 'Farang' was one that expatriates (and EuroThais) stated they objected to at which point we had to suffer a tyrade from a Thai member of staff complaining 'This is Thailand you don't tell Thai people how to speak.... if we want to use 'Farang' etc etc'.

The vitriol he poured out was evidence enough of why many expats and all the EuroThais objected the term and there after I never heard the term openly used in the office again.

----

As a Thai speaker it is my experience that the use of the word and the context in which it is used is frequently derogatory.

Something non Thai speakers will almost always miss.

I fail to see why a native speaker should not have objected to being told by foreigners how or how not to use a word in his/her own language, a word which as Meadish and others have pointed out is not a derogatory term. Why should he/she give a rat's ass if they objected to it? If the word or any word was being used derogatorily that is an entirely different issue, and has nothing to do with the word 'Farang'. I would get pretty pissed off back home if someone with little or no grasp of my native tongue tried to tell me how to speak my own language. Kudos to the employee for having the guts to speak up. I am sure a lot of the other Thai staff felt similarly but didn't dare speak out.

I am sorry to hear that you experience the word used in a derogatory sense frequently, although given your attempt to tell Thais how to speak their own language I am not surprised. As a more or less proficient speaker (and listener) of Thai my experience is similar to Meadish's, which is that I rarely hear it used that way. I think personal experience is largely going to be based on two factors: The kinds of places and people that one associates with, and the personal appearance/behavior of the farang subject to the derogatory use.

In the past 24 hours I have heard the word 'farang' used in the following ways.

1. When I came into a garage to inquire about my car I heard another customer comment to the owner, 'Farang riab roi' after I had consulted with the owner.

2. When I gassed up at my regular gas station the clerk told the pump boy to 'go help the farang'.

3. A truck came down our street advertising farang for sale.

Those examples pretty much sum up the types of occasions where I hear farang spoken.

I truthfully cannot recall the last time I heard the word used negatively. Then again, I do not live in Pattaya, hang out at Patpong, or live in a farang ghetto, areas which as Meadish pointed out tend to attract the worst of both cultures. As an example, I have visited Pattaya several times and I too would use the word 'farang' in a derogatory way to describe the offensive behavior of some of the farangs that I observed there.

P.S. What is a Euro-Thai?

Edited December 1, 2007 by qualtrough

[qualtrough]

Well well boys. May i presume all of those accepting the use of F..... word also happy about every other aspect of thai life/culture, that comes directly from your "special" position in this society ; be it double pricing, being oficial alien,doing visa runs, being unable to naturalise, even get proper residency rights here. Being fleeced by your thai theerak's & wondering , when they move on from you were you any more than ATM for them ..

Don't went your anger on posters like me.. think about it carefully, one thing leads to another, & unless you adress the route of the problem, don't dream about changing the consequences of it

How in the world is 'accepting' the use of the word farang related to the things you mention? You clearly do not understand the word. In any case, I not only accept and use the word, but don't like double pricing at all and would never justify it. However, I rarely encounter it as I don't often visit those kind of establishments anyway. I don't have to do visa runs, nor does anyone with a legitimate reason for a long term stay here. It is possible to naturalize, just not as easy as back in our home countries. This is Thailand, and I don't blame them for not wanting to open the gates to uncontrolled immigration as is the case back home for some of us. Not all of us our fleeced by our 'teeraks', so that is a very broad and unfair generalization as well. Sounds like you speak from bitter experience no doubt. BTW, What is the root of the problem you speak of? Indeed, what is the problem you are referring to? Oh, and how can one 'change the consequences of it', or anything for that matter?

Edited December 1, 2007 by qualtrough

[asiaworld]

Well qualtrough, i was born in asia & spent most of my life here..Sorry to dissapoint your ego, but i don't speak from personal experience about being fleeced by theerak.. Guess something i was easily able to avoid, by understanding a thing or 2 & NOT socialisin with "farang vs.thai" attituded locals.. Now i live here to make money & i know the region very well.. It's just a convenience factor of me living here, and what i observe it's not pretty, guess too late for this country to be colonised to change the mindset .. oups.. anyway if u don't understand the root of the problem, enjoy ur life here mr.... rieb roy... until one day u may become discarded farang..

[asiaworld]

Again back to my experience in Camboda.. Now i have good friends there,& also go ther to make money, not find pussy

Sorry to say different tastes for me .. But one striking difference !>> Whenever i there i am treated as one day it may become my country, my friends know it & treat me accordingly(i have almost 3 citizenships anyway) . And i do feel accepted well from the moment they stamp me in.. No the attitude here, even as you & me don't have to do visa runs is>> admitted until, whenever next year, but presumed not to ever belong to this place !! Huge difference

And can be booted out as son as the immigration changes their mind again, because well, it's just a farang you know

[qualtrough]

Asiaword, I am sorry but I have trouble following what you wrote in your two previous posts. If English is not your native language that is understandable and I apologize as I know how hard it can be to express oneself in a non-native tongue.

I do sense that you are very bitter about your experience in Thailand, which means it is a good thing you are apparently living in Cambodia where I am sure the situation is much improved.

[WaiWai]

I fail to see why a native speaker should not have objected to being told by foreigners how or how not to use a word in his/her own language, a word which as Meadish and others have pointed out is not a derogatory term. Why should he/she give a rat's ass if they objected to it? If the word or any word was being used derogatorily that is an entirely different issue, and has nothing to do with the word 'Farang'. I would get pretty pissed off back home if someone with little or no grasp of my native tongue tried to tell me how to speak my own language. Kudos to the employee for having the guts to speak up. I am sure a lot of the other Thai staff felt similarly but didn't dare speak out.

Dynamics in a workplace with most members coming from one of two main cultural groups can be delicate. If one group feels aggrieved by the other's labels for them - and this would be apparent to the users, of course - there are more than likely some deeper problems. In such instances it's wise to have ongoing intercultural training, which may involve some venting but also some agreement to compromise and work towards breaking down the barriers. No matter how neutral a label theoretically is, it is very liable to be misused when people are upset. (Think about some of the things kids say !). Seeing eachother as individuals rather than "farangs" or "Thais" is the goal, and avoiding those terms, whenever possible, recommended.

Edited December 1, 2007 by WaiWai

[asiaworld]

Asiaword, I am sorry but I have trouble following what you wrote in your two previous posts. If English is not your native language that is understandable and I apologize as I know how hard it can be to express oneself in a non-native tongue.

I do sense that you are very bitter about your experience in Thailand, which means it is a good thing you are apparently living in Cambodia where I am sure the situation is much improved.

no worries .. typing is Not my native skill . Again sorry 2 dissapoint you , i am Long term Resident in both Thailand & Cambodia, but i spend much more time in Bkk only because the infrastructure that it has to offer & i don't mean sex, but the normal infrastructue, cheaper than HK or S'pore also . So if we were to make "competition" on who'll stay here longer on legal basis, i may as well win .. But my bitterness is about the attitudes! Now if you don't mind being different & not ever accepted by mainstream society , you have your point, some people are being clowns & entertainers as their full time occupation . If that's your choice , please don't complain,when one day you'll get cake thrown in your face . last time i was "racially discriminated" against ,was when i was a kid.. & it wasn't in Thailand , but here i just see a lot of dissapointed folks on TV board, who refuse to understand why it hit them .

Cheers

[WaiWai]

I have to say I do think many Thais (Asians ?) do have a fairly pronounced "us"-"them" mentality, by which I mean that they believe foreigners are very different to them (and perhaps this is true !) rather more than many of us from far more multi-cultural backgrounds might. Also we "Westerners" are trained to believe everyone is equal and fundamentally similar, but I am not too sure Thais are.

Perhaps it's a bit of a "small town" view, too, something which can be found all over the world.

[asiaworld]

i think that problem with qualtrough, & many others is, that they lived in the west, & than all of a sudden ended up being washed up here on thai shores, so to them this is asia & thay enjoy it the way it is rose colored specs of a sort..

My advise wold be go spend a few years in places like Malaysia/HK/etc. learn the language culture attitudes, than you suddenly realise, it's not all rosy in Pattaya garden

[madjbs]

Asiaworld

I lived in Hong Kong for 7 years before living in Thailand and I can tell you that the us and them attitude is much stronger there, especially among the older generations. Thai people seem much friendlier compared to Hong Kong Chinese that you meet in everyday life (sorry meemiathai), although I made many Chinese friends as well while I was there.

Edited December 1, 2007 by madjbs

[asiaworld]

Strange .. & funny meemiathai has similar opinion as you do, and it really baffles me ..Now i speak mandarin since i was a kid. My cantonese is very limited, but from my observations the huge difference that it is not 'institutionalised' in HK, and actually fought against !! Same like the west had the history of slavery & antisemitism, but has redeemed itself since in unrecognisble ways ! Also PRC had same problem, but has come a long way since . Yes i know it's not all rosy,

but lets see, meemiathai 'blasts' HK in the same way, but hey, confront him & see if he can point any case of institutionalised racism directed against him.. Bet he won't , now i presume from his nick, he has thai family.. if assume one day he'd have a kid & like to settle in Thailand, i'm sure in no time, he'll be crying bitterly about the same things, he's now laughing at, like posting the clips, where foreigners portrayed as clowns

[asiaworld]

Now i've been in HK hundreds of times & visit regularly, i also had properties in Macau, so sort of ended up living there for a while . Agree i didn't like it so much at the beginning, but by now .. hel_l i feel more @ home & welcome there, than even in Thailand (where i btw. have more legal rights) . And i have a few HK friends, which are hard to make, but in the long run , HK IS THE PLACE, any foreigner may call home & have a fully fledged Life!

Now i never mean, that Thailand should open the floodgates,& let everyone in & assimilate them.. Now that'll make Thailand look like US,UK or Malaysia. But surely Thailand would be happy with a few fully integrated citizens of different races, which they do have & realise, that they want it, but fail miserably in educating their own populace to respect their (not so) different countrymen. Or folks with families & kids here ( who didn't get theirs from the bar )

& whose marriages may just last a bit longer, than their funds ..

[asiaworld]

and ah, the last one .. to all you specialists, what do you think of a work 'kaek' (guest) being regularly used @ thai citizens of indian origin ! Sure, they after lived here all their lives are more than thrilled & understanding about it !

Like 'kaek' tailor .. 'kaek' restaurant ... has anyone came across any of those

[Chloe82]

and ah, the last one .. to all you specialists, what do you think of a work 'kaek' (guest) being regularly used @ thai citizens of indian origin ! Sure, they after lived here all their lives are more than thrilled & understanding about it !

Like 'kaek' tailor .. 'kaek' restaurant ... has anyone came across any of those

This has been covered in other threads ad nauseum.

[WaiWai]

and ah, the last one .. to all you specialists, what do you think of a work 'kaek' (guest) being regularly used @ thai citizens of indian origin ! Sure, they after lived here all their lives are more than thrilled & understanding about it !

Like 'kaek' tailor .. 'kaek' restaurant ... has anyone came across any of those

This has been covered in other threads ad nauseum.

Please - it's "ad nauseam" !

And, while we're at it, check what " I feel nauseous" means.

Sorry, Chloe ! Just one of those things that peeve - nothing personal.

But has there really been so much discussion of the attitudes towards Indians, to whom Thais owe so much of their culture ? BTW, it's the same in Hong Kong.

[tgeezer]

I expect people to refer to me in a polite way when i have just met them, its called basic human decency.

From what you have written it would seem you think it ok for a Thai to be rude to all us Farangs should one white man have upset them in the past.

I didn't say that at all, by 'refer' I mean speaking about me not to me, I would also not expect them to be rude if I had got so far as to be introduced. Farang is in the dictionary, it means white-skinned person, it also means Guava, and is added to the name of things which come from abroad which are not indiginous to Thailand. when I order guava juice I often say 'farang gin farang' for a laugh. So we are farang here and English in England(all the people I know anyway) and they are Thai here and Asian in England. I would be really pissed off, in fact I am really pissed off, at many of the words which I knew as a child are now considered beyond the pale, and I don't blame the Thai in the office in an earlier post, at least they can still hold on to their language in the face of an excess of 'preciousness'. I was watching a crime programme in UK when the policeman referred to the spotty erk who had just been apprehended in a stolen car as a 'gentleman'! I don't think the Thais will ever get that confused. Sorry to go off topic.

[madjbs]

in the long run , HK IS THE PLACE, any foreigner may call home & have a fully fledged Life!

While Hong Kong is easier to live in, in the long run, I never called it my home because I simply didn’t like it much. I now firmly call Thailand my home and I can be fairly sure that there will always be methods to live here if you are inclined to. It is about personal taste, you cant just say ...... is the best place in Asia to live blah blah blah. Hong Kong is just too boring for me thanks.

[Chloe82]

Please - it's "ad nauseam" !

And, while we're at it, check what " I feel nauseous" means.

Sorry, Chloe ! Just one of those things that peeve - nothing personal.

.

Yes of course you are correct, i apologise for my spelling mistake.

'I feel nauseous' would it not be Nauseated?

[WaiWai]

Please - it's "ad nauseam" !

And, while we're at it, check what " I feel nauseous" means.

Sorry, Chloe ! Just one of those things that peeve - nothing personal.

.

Yes of course you are correct, i apologise for my spelling mistake.

'I feel nauseous' would it not be Nauseated?

Yep, and it describes the attitudes to Indians well .

[asiaworld]

in the long run , HK IS THE PLACE, any foreigner may call home & have a fully fledged Life!

While Hong Kong is easier to live in, in the long run, I never called it my home because I simply didn’t like it much. I now firmly call Thailand my home and I can be fairly sure that there will always be methods to live here if you are inclined to. It is about personal taste, you cant just say ...... is the best place in Asia to live blah blah blah. Hong Kong is just too boring for me thanks.

yeah... i know, what you mean.. and also all this space, pretty much makes the great advantage of Thailand, comparing to S'pore, or HK .. This is why they all like to flee here for the weekends

[Jingthing]

People everywhere are racists to one degree or another. Thais are people. I suppose we can get into a debate of which people in the world exhibit the most virulent racism but just thinking about that makes my brain hurt. The answer is cross breeding, a problem for me because I don't like girls, but all of you who go for that sort of thing, get on with it, and MIX MIX MIX.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[meemiathai]

Meemiathai

If you read my original post i did say it was said without malice and that i may have only been aware she actually said it as in my opinion Thais in tourist areas are more resentful and rude towards tourists now then they were when i first started coming here.

The only reasoned i mentioned it some time later is because someone started a forum discussion on whether the term farang is used in a derogatory way.

If you went to a relatively nice restaurant, when the waitress handed out the menus, and she passed them to the others at the table and used the word sir or madam when doing so if they were of Asian appearance, then when she handed you the menu said the word farang i am sure you would pick up on it.

Dear howtoescape,

You stated that the receptionist was saying "farang" to another receptionist so she was not actually addressing you as "farang", right? And now you are trying to make an example where the waitress is trying to call you directly farang. Ask yourself honestly are you being fair?

Are you trying to say thais generally will address other Asian looking people as sir or madam but will try to call westerners farang as good as they can if they think they can get away with it? You think they are generally racist towards farang?

I am a very honest person. If I believe I see white, I call it white. If I believe I see black, I call it black. Don't you think you were a bit ...... you know what I mean?

[madjbs]

I now firmly call Thailand my home and I can be fairly sure that there will always be methods to live here if you are inclined to.

I assume you have permanent residency or Thai citizenship?

What "methods" do you refer to that would allow someone who doesn't qualify for Non-Immigrant visa extensions to remain indefinitely in Thailand?

How a long term tourist or temporary resident on a Non-Immigrant visa can consider somewhere their permanent home just shows how detached from reality some Westerners become in Thailand.

You can always find a way if you are prepared to look and have a reasonable amount of money. A visa is just a piece of paper that you need to get, doesnt mean you cant call the place your home.

Edited December 1, 2007 by madjbs

[meemiathai]

P.S. What is a Euro-Thai?

The equivalent of the ThaiVisa Thai apologist brigade, that is the "farang apologist brigade", I guess.

[meemiathai]

Well well boys. May i presume all of those accepting the use of F..... word also happy about every other aspect of thai life/culture, that comes directly from your "special" position in this society ; be it double pricing, being oficial alien,doing visa runs, being unable to naturalise, even get proper residency rights here. Being fleeced by your thai theerak's & wondering , when they move on from you were you any more than ATM for them ..

Don't went your anger on posters like me.. think about it carefully, one thing leads to another, & unless you adress the route of the problem, don't dream about changing the consequences of it

So according to your logic, if I am comfortable with the f word, I am comfortable that farang tourists getting raped here? I am comfortable with farang tourists being scammed here? I am comfortable with farang tourists being murdered here?

You are such a gentleman with honesty!

Please focus. The next thing you are going say is I am comfortable about the beheadings in Iraq.

[asiaworld]

Are you trying to say thais generally will address other Asian looking people as sir or madam but will try to call westerners farang as good as they can if they think they can get away with it? You think they are generally racist towards farang?

Precisely how i feel it is.. You should get around the country a bit more, & be more observant & understanding ..

I know HK is where you live, so clearly you can think of some negative aspects of being there, while on your thai holidays, excitment may obscure the real facts of life, which i have 'pleasure' observing on numerous occasions, especially driving to different provinces.. Bangkokians are sort of more civilised , so to say >>less in your face, in those matters.

[meemiathai]

During a cross cultural session with members of our staff that had been scheduled in response to a blantent case of racism, the subject of 'Respectful and Disrespectful Langauge' came up.

The term 'Farang' was one that expatriates (and EuroThais) stated they objected to at which point we had to suffer a tyrade from a Thai member of staff complaining 'This is Thailand you don't tell Thai people how to speak.... if we want to use 'Farang' etc etc'.

The vitriol he poured out was evidence enough of why many expats and all the EuroThais objected the term and there after I never heard the term openly used in the office again.

----

As a Thai speaker it is my experience that the use of the word and the context in which it is used is frequently derogatory.

Something non Thai speakers will almost always miss.

I fail to see why a native speaker should not have objected to being told by foreigners how or how not to use a word in his/her own language, a word which as Meadish and others have pointed out is not a derogatory term. Why should he/she give a rat's ass if they objected to it? If the word or any word was being used derogatorily that is an entirely different issue, and has nothing to do with the word 'Farang'. I would get pretty pissed off back home if someone with little or no grasp of my native tongue tried to tell me how to speak my own language. Kudos to the employee for having the guts to speak up. I am sure a lot of the other Thai staff felt similarly but didn't dare speak out.

I am sorry to hear that you experience the word used in a derogatory sense frequently, although given your attempt to tell Thais how to speak their own language I am not surprised. As a more or less proficient speaker (and listener) of Thai my experience is similar to Meadish's, which is that I rarely hear it used that way. I think personal experience is largely going to be based on two factors: The kinds of places and people that one associates with, and the personal appearance/behavior of the farang subject to the derogatory use.

In the past 24 hours I have heard the word 'farang' used in the following ways.

1. When I came into a garage to inquire about my car I heard another customer comment to the owner, 'Farang riab roi' after I had consulted with the owner.

2. When I gassed up at my regular gas station the clerk told the pump boy to 'go help the farang'.

3. A truck came down our street advertising farang for sale.

Those examples pretty much sum up the types of occasions where I hear farang spoken.

I truthfully cannot recall the last time I heard the word used negatively. Then again, I do not live in Pattaya, hang out at Patpong, or live in a farang ghetto, areas which as Meadish pointed out tend to attract the worst of both cultures. As an example, I have visited Pattaya several times and I too would use the word 'farang' in a derogatory way to describe the offensive behavior of some of the farangs that I observed there.

P.S. What is a Euro-Thai?

Dear qualtrough,

I am glad that there are people like you who are understanding. It is actually mad, crazy to even to argue about it.

Imagine a thai going to england and tell the locals "I don't like you calling "spoons" "spoons", call them "shit stirrers". I don't like you calling "China" "China", call it "Superland". Isn't that crazy? What is wrong with the heads of these westerners?

For fuvk's sake it is like trying to teach people 1 + 1 = 2 and they won't <removed> agree! It is really difficult not to lose temper.