Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

[asiaworld]

attention fluent thai speakers !>> what comes to your mind, when you hear the thai hit song 'Farang keenok' ?!?!?

is it about the tasty fruits , thai farmers grow... or any other thought may cross your mind

honest answers pliiiiiiiiiiiiz

It is a tongue in cheek but derogatory usage playing on the fact that farang keenok is both a vegetable and a description for a tightwad farang. It has no bearing on whether or not farang is offensive. Note that farang must be modifed by the adjective keenok in order to provide any offensive effect. If the song was titled Farang it would just be about farangs, or a piece of fruit. So what point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone arguing here that farang can not be coupled with other words in order to make it offensive. But that is true of any word, so what is the issue?

you see Jingthing .. insults aside , when he's faced with cold,hard facts there's no choice, but to agree..

Can we imagine song like this becoming hit in the west ...

[bozzman111]

how many times have you heard some thai chick scream farang kee nok!!!!!!!!!!

this can be whispered under breath after 7-8 mins of time of trying to twist a drink out of you when you just want to hang out alone

and not have a mill stone around your neck kee nok = bird shit

[Jingthing]

how many times have you heard some thai chick scream farang kee nok!!!!!!!!!!

this can be whispered under breath after 7-8 mins of time of trying to twist a drink out of you when you just want to hang out alone

and not have a mill stone around your neck kee nok = bird shit

Speaking for qualtrough who is out shopping for better peanuts, yes indeed. Said "lady" could say the same thing about Americans or Nigerians, same effect as farang, just farang being more general about all white people. Of course, in common Thai usage, you would not hear American kee nok, but that isn't the point.

However, she could (would) not have said tree kee nok or table kee nok.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Ping]

Most people have western culture so engrained into their heads that it’s impossible for them to accept certain things. Most people don’t realise they have certain values engrained into their personalities which leads to them assuming everything else is simply wrong. If you have been brought up in two different cultures then it’s easier to recognise.

...ah, now we are actually getting somewhere. Well put, Madjbs; a relatively simple point that many posters simply do not seem to be able to come to terms with. I would indicate that although it may be simpler for a person raised in divergent cultures to appreciate, many people (including myself!) can adjust their perspectives without this advantage. If they apply this perspective to everyday life in LOS, perhaps people will find themselves feeling far more comfortable (and pleasant!). (I suppose this will bring a flame or two... )

[Jingthing]

I agree with the last points as well do apply to many Western people. In my case, I don't feel I have this problem for two reasons: I was raised as an outsider in America and I took alot of LSD in my teens. I totally ACCEPT the differences between cultures, but that doesn't mean I have waived my rights to make observations about the differences. For example, if a Thai person rubs my stomach and calls me fat, I know he is not trying to hurt my feelings, and I have even grown to enjoy these rubs, but that doesn't mean I don't notice the rubbing.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Chloe82]

Can we imagine song like this becoming hit in the west ...

It becomes more difficult to believe the credentials in Asia that you earlier claimed for yourself when you start to come out with comments such as above.

[meemiathai]

Well it is certainly not used as the Japanese use gai-jin which can also have negative connotations. The word farang is often used in an abusive way, the same as some english may use the word "paki" to deride all who look like a certain race. That is how many of the Thais use the word farang.

Of course we will have here the detractors who see it only ever being used in a positive light. But then, some people think all is right with the world and there is no wrong and no evil. Perhaps they live by themselves.

Over 15 years, I hear it used in a negative fashion more by the lower class and uneducated in areas where there is a large western population. Move outside of these areas and whilst some may use it as a form of abuse or more often as a jealousy statement, the overall use is less negative.

To defend the position that it is purely a word for Thais to describe people from the west is naive and insulting to those who do come from there.

You are just so spot on!

Take a knife, everyone might think a knife is just a tool used in the kitchen for food. Wrong! Do you know, within the Al Qaeda, knives are mainly use for beheadings.

Of course we will have here the detractors who see it only ever being used in a kitchen. But then, some people think all is right with the world and there is no wrong and no evil. Perhaps they live by themselves.

Over the last few years after 911, I see it being used as a weapon more by the terrorists for beheadings in areas like Afghanistan and Iraq. Move outside of these areas and whilst some in England or the States might just use it to stab people or more often just to intimidate, the overall use is less violent.

To defend that knives are used mainly for preparing food is naive and insulting to those who got beheaded.

[meemiathai]

Any word can.

Q, this is not true.

Take a word like tree. Yes, you could say, those trees are taking all our good jobs, but a tree is not a RACIAL group of HUMAN BEINGS. You continue to deny that this kind of difference is important. I find that, Thai fluency or not, very intellectually dishonest.

At the very least, maybe you can respond to this point, the DIFFERENCE between a RACIAL WORD about people and just ANY word and why you think all words are the same with equal amounts of POWER. You may be fluent in Thai but you have failed to learn the immense power of WORDS in all societies it is YOU who have failed! , and that all words are not equal. I don't think you have ever responded to this challenge even though you have asserted that all words are the same many, many times.

Farang may be (I agree that it is) a neutral word in itself, but it is most certainly not just ANY word.

Jingthing, do you have a problem with race?

How more rude, how more offensive can people be? Just because in your own culture you can't handle race, you come to other peoples' country and tell them they are not allowed to call what is what? Just how rude is it to think that the world revolves around western culture? Is the word American offensive? IS IT?

Why won't you believe? What makes you think it is negative? I get called farang everywhere by thai friends, by my thai family, so you think all of them are using if negatively against me? What make you think so? Why don't you go out and ask other thais rather than trying to post here asking similar ignorant farangs with same narrow mindedness?

BTW, asiaworld, your posts are below standard of primary kids. So it is almost pointless to carry on a debate with you coz it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about. If you would like to keep on debating, face me and answer my questions directly. There is nothing to hide.

[meemiathai]

Do you speak Thai fluently? I didn't think so. So how are you to know that farang by itself is offensive? As others with considerably more knowledge of the language have pointed out, the term by itself is neutral and not an offensive term used to describe westerners. It can indeed be made offensive by combining with offensive words, but so what? Any word can. What exactly is your point then?? In the US nigger was considered offensive in most parts of the US for more than 100 years, and the word itself was offensive. It didn't need to be coupled with anything in order to be an insult. Calling something farang food, farang style, or someone a farang is not intended to offend, and indeed would only offend the type of farang that wants to be offended by something. I would suggest that those offended by the word are too sensitive to live in Thailand, much less Asia, and would be better off staying at home where they can hear only words that appeal to them.

Hmm.. you have a funny way of proving your point, now it's my thai knowledge you're after.. well to answer your older question, english IS my native/adopted language . Have you heard of native proficiency . To explain, i didn't know any english in the first 8 years of my life ..And i know at least 5 more languages on similar level.. Anyways i don't think, you have good chance of winning the language contest .

Also your previous point, that you can't tell the native speaker, what to say is NOT good.. > Does it mean, i can insult anyone i like, with any words i like & non native speakers can't say anything against it ?!? Are U 4 REAL ?!?

Look at your post asia, you can't even answer directly if you speak the language and you dare to argue about it. I am quite sad that people just absolutely feel no shame when being dishonest.

So is it mandarin or english? which is it? I doubt you spoke mandarin. Can you write chinese?

Oh yes, I forgot, they are secrets right. Are you also trying to preach religion? Just believe don't ask, right?

[GuestHouse]

My internet crashed this morning so I was unable to post the other point that Qualtrough failed to address

We did not tell our Thai staff to do anything, nor I would add did we tell our expatriate staff to do anything - what we did was examine each others behavior and language in terms of its impact on others then ask our staff to discuss feelings and perceptions in order that we can all of us treat each other with mutual respect.[/quote]

I find it interesting that whenever we have discussed language and behaviour with Thais they respond very positively to addressing behaviour and language through a framework of Mutual Respect.

In the case I have given our Thai staff were very responsive to other people's feelings when given the opportunity to examine their own behaviour. I regard this as a triumph of Thai sensibilities with respect to 'Relationships' over the nationalistic and inward education most Thais are subjected to.

I have of course given an example of a Thai individual who railed against the idea that he needs to accommodate the foreigners he has chosen to work with. As an individual his bigotry was no different that the bigotry that can be found elsewhere in the world.

What I do find strange is the heated reaction of many foreigners to this issue - far more reactive than Thais, who as I have said responded very well to the idea of considering the feelings of others.

The only clear argument I've come across in this thread by those defending the term Farang is the idea that in doing so they may be defending the Thai language against the march of what they regard as Political Correctness.

And that gets back to mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others.

Edited December 2, 2007 by GuestHouse

[asiaworld]

Well meemiathai, you just choose to ignore the facts presented , but read & reply so selectively, as on your convenience.. If you ignore other peoples posts, do not expect your questions to be answered .. Yeah so mature, just to dismiss your opponent .. You have your views, enjoy living with them unchallenged

[PeaceBlondie]

guesthouse's example, from its original time mentioned in this thread, was that the Thai staff member became incensed during a staff meeting on racial sensitivity, soon after a racial incident at that workplace. Let's just imagine that the racial incident had involved a staff member publicly insulting another employee, using the most insulting words imaginable in any language. I don't speak Thai and am not aware that I've ever been insulted as "that dam- filthy farang". However, no Thai gentleman or lady has the right to publicly racially insult me in any language, even if they use a loanword from some other language that has racial content. And when insulted, if we are 100% sure it was an insult, we have the right to be insulted. We don't have the right to assault a Thai because they insult us. However, with a smile we could reply politely but insultingly in our native tongue what our personal opinion is about what was just said. However, I think I'd use Spanish and say, "Pienso que tu madre no es ningun puta, pero tal vez ella es."

[meemiathai]

attention fluent thai speakers !>> what comes to your mind, when you hear the thai hit song 'Farang keenok' ?!?!?

is it about the tasty fruits , thai farmers grow... or any other thought may cross your mind

honest answers pliiiiiiiiiiiiz

It is a tongue in cheek but derogatory usage playing on the fact that farang keenok is both a vegetable and a description for a tightwad farang. It has no bearing on whether or not farang is offensive. Note that farang must be modifed by the adjective keenok in order to provide any offensive effect. If the song was titled Farang it would just be about farangs, or a piece of fruit. So what point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone arguing here that farang can not be coupled with other words in order to make it offensive. But that is true of any word, so what is the issue?

you see Jingthing .. insults aside , when he's faced with cold,hard facts there's no choice, but to agree..

Can we imagine song like this becoming hit in the west ...

qualtrough,

you ain't gonna teach primary school kids university stuff. "tongue in cheek"?, oh my god, that is deep! You really expect him to understand this?

[meemiathai]

Well meemiathai, you just choose to ignore the facts presented , but read & reply so selectively, as on your convenience.. If you ignore other peoples posts, do not expect your questions to be answered .. Yeah so mature, just to dismiss your opponent .. You have your views, enjoy living with them unchallenged

Selectively? What is it that you asked I did not reply? Ask!!!!!!!!!!! You are the one who is selective!

[asiaworld]

Selectively? What is it that you asked I did not reply? Ask!!!!!!!!!!! You are the one who is selective!

Go back & read more.. in any case , since u dismiss my statments at your convenience, i don't think you deserve further discussion, you've got good part of your questions answered by me ... re-read

[GuestHouse]

I'm saying in most cases it not used as a negative word and yes I do pick up on it's use negatively when it's WITH derogatory classifiers and sometimes inflection of voice.

That's a bit of a wriggle is isn't it - As a fluent Thai speaker you will absolutely aware that the classifier gives meaning to the word and that inflection of voice is used to give sense.

So for example if a Thai addresses or discusses a westerner with the term 'Farang + (Classifier for person)' then we might argue that this use is neutral (or at least any offence relates to the generalization of all westerners being the same)

However if, as I have often heard, a Thai addresses or discusses a westerner with the term 'Farang + (Classifier for an animal or an object)' then there is no doubt that the sense of the term Farang is derogatory - extremely so.

If you do not believe me try addressing a Thai with the term 'Thai + (Classifier for an animal or an object)' and see what reaction you get.

The same applies, though with less striking impact, with the use of inflection in the voice.

The word by itself is NOT derogative... If a Thai person were to use Farang in a negative way it would go like this.... "hey.... that asshol_e farang guy was yelling at me just because I can't understand english very well" Notice the word asshol_e was used in conjunction with Farang. If you hear someone attach Farang with a bad term such as dirty, cheap, bastard etc then I would say it's bad otherwise, Farang is just another word in the Thai vocabulary.

I've given you an example of where a classifier changes the meaning and sense of the word - As a Fluent Thai Speaker you would be aware of that and hence your choice of context by sentence, rather than by Classifier is curious.

[GuestHouse]

Several people more knowledgeable in Thai than either you or myself

You are able to judge your own skills, you have no idea of my own and I'm beginning to doubt the claims of at least one of ther posters here who is claiming fluency.

[Jingthing]

Meemeethai

What makes you think it is negative?

You are not to be taken seriously. I have said definitively many, many times that the word itself is NEUTRAL.

Read posts before you reply and make completely false accusations. I notice a real pattern with you and I suggest YOU look at yourself in the mirror before posting falsehoods again.

I am no genius and there is plenty of room to attack my positions, but please attack my positions, instead of making up stories in your mind about what my positions are.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[meemiathai]

All these "farang word mainly used in a negative way" drivels makes me:

want to engage in an involuntary personal protein spill..

[meemiathai]

Meemeethai

What makes you think it is negative?

You are not to be taken seriously. I have said definitively many, many times that the word itself is NEUTRAL.

Read posts before you reply and make completely false accusations. I notice a real pattern with you and I suggest YOU look at yourself in the mirror before posting falsehoods again.

I am no genius and there is plenty of room to attack my positions, but please attack my positions, instead of making up stories in your mind about what my positions are.

But you say it is always or mainly used in a negative manner, didn't you? That implies negativity, doesn't it?

Is it neutral or not neutral? If it is, then what is all the fuss about?

Did I attack you? What stories?

[meemiathai]

During a cross cultural session with members of our staff that had been scheduled in response to a blantent case of racism, the subject of 'Respectful and Disrespectful Langauge' came up.

The term 'Farang' was one that expatriates (and EuroThais) stated they objected to at which point we had to suffer a tyrade from a Thai member of staff complaining 'This is Thailand you don't tell Thai people how to speak.... if we want to use 'Farang' etc etc'.

The vitriol he poured out was evidence enough of why many expats and all the EuroThais objected the term and there after I never heard the term openly used in the office again. (GH, what was the vitriol that was poured out?)

----

As a Thai speaker it is my experience that the use of the word and the context in which it is used is frequently derogatory.

Something non Thai speakers will almost always miss.

I can't say for your experience. Maybe it is true for you. But my experience is I have never heard it used negatively in front of me. Maybe hi-so thais like to use it negatively, then I am not sure.

[meemiathai]

There is also nothing to suggest Western foreigners will be welcomed to Thailand as immigrants or even permanent residents en masse or otherwise, ever!

My experience at Immigration when I obtained permanent residence was that I was welcomed.

Indeed, but unfortunately you have missed the point completely.

I was highlighting the fact that foreigners certainly are not encouraged to apply for permanent residence, and even more so emigrate here, if it is even possible.

The more I read the more I think they are right.

They should have stricter rules. They should do tests on the understanding of thai culture so those idiots who cannot handle the word "farang" can't stay.

Why not start complaining about the "sawadee khrap" and the "holding 2 hands together" gesture? Tell them you don't like it!

Tell them to shake their bloody hands instead!

[mikemac]

I cannot believe people are actually bothering to discuss this stupid subject, who cares about one stupid farang's paranoid obsession with the way Thais use a word.

[meemiathai]

I cannot believe people are actually bothering to discuss this stupid subject, who cares about one stupid farang's paranoid obsession with the way Thais use a word.

I think you are quite right. I am really starting to feel stupid.

[pwills]

I have seldom heard this word used in a derogatory way..I have mostly heard it in places where foreigners are seldom seen ,small villages etc. I have heard 2 derivations of where the word came from 1. that the French were the first to establish trade relations durinG the Ayuthaya period ,French/ Farangset and Farang khii nok the guava seeds /farang being transported by migratory birds from India therefore people transplanted to Thailand, sometimes accidently.

[Jingthing]

Not defending this thread because it has deteriorated and I wouldn't blame the mods if they close it. However, many people have voted. I set up a poll for discussion. I already said this but I voted Often (for the USE of the word, not the word itself which is NEUTRAL), but when I really thought about it, I would have changed my vote to Sometimes.

Plenty of people have been interested in discussing the topic seriously and I think many of the comments are quite interesting, so I deny that this is about my obsession with the word. I have some obsessions, but the word farang ain't one of them. Good day.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

Personal insults will not be tolerated here. Read the forum rules or don't post.

[Jingthing]

Where are these nations that have immigration laws more restrictive than Thailand? They are certainly few and far between.

I have studied this and for CASUAL TEMPORARY immigration Thailand is more liberal than average. However, for permanent residency and citizenship for farangs I think it is more restrictive than average. So given that, you can't label it overall as liberal OR restrictive. However, I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of us are here on a SHORT LEASH.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[qualtrough]

Thailand is my home in the sense of home used by most people. I live here and have done so for 16 years. It is where my children were born and live, where my wife lives, and where I work. If you want to define home in a more restrictive sense you are free to do that, but it is not the definition of home that most people think of. Home is defined as the place where you live for most people. As for Thailand becoming more restrictive, those things come and go. The people you mention had no right to assume they could use those methods indefinitely as they clearly violated the spirit of the law, if not the letter. Many nations, perhaps most, have immigration laws far more restrictive than Thailand's, so I don't know what you are moaning about.

Where are these nations that have immigration laws more restrictive than Thailand? They are certainly few and far between.

Certainly none of the Western countries I know, as they have millions of immigrants living in them, unlike Thailand.

They may be more restrictive to visitors, but that's because many elect to remain illegal and become a burden on social services when they don't leave, something we can never do in Thailand.

I've already given you the correct definitions of home, now you are just rambling because it doesn't fit your starry eyed wishful thinking.

Once again, you live in Thailand, but it isn't your home.

It is my home by the most commonly accepted definition of the word. Even if I were forced to leave tomorrow the fact that Thailand was my home for more than 16 years would not be changed one iota. Many illegal immigrants who have lived a long time in Europe or the USA consider those places their homes, even though they have less legal standing than I do here in Thailand. Nonetheless, those countries are where those people live, have families, homes, and work. You are trying to make a point, but you cannot redefine a word to make it fit your argument.

[camerata]

I was highlighting the fact that foreigners certainly are not encouraged to apply for permanent residence, and even more so emigrate here, if it is even possible.

All that tells us, though, is that Thailand doesn't have an active immigration policy. Many foreigners consider this to be somehow "unfair" because some countries do, such as Australia/Canada (not enough people and skills), America (a country of immigrants), Switzerland (needs labour), Britain (colonial legacy), Western Europe (asylum and human rights legislation). If Thailand doesn't want immigrants, I don't see how we can consider that unfair or "bad" in any way. It's just the way it is.