Second Class Citizens

[Dakhar]

People do not like to pay money, for slow results.

If there were Thai members involved in this advocate scheme, it would be all the more easy to round them up, throw them into a truck and hall them off to the BKK hotel, under the charges of anit-thai activity. It would be in the news, and all those who watched it would be proud to hear what was done to the Thai traitors.

If Thailand can toss out a prime-minister every 5 years or so, loading up the wagon with some anti-Thai activists would be well supported in this environment.

[naka]

People who complain about being second class citizens probably are.

Regardless of where they live.

Naka.

[ade100]

Couldn’t the group be more focussed on collaboration than criticising Government Policy? I.e. finding better ways for Thailand and westerners to work together. I hate to keep going on about Singapore but the Singapore government recognises that foreign skills and investment are critical to producing a better economy and a better life for Singaporean citizens.

[Dakhar]

Couldn’t the group be more focussed on collaboration than criticising Government Policy? I.e. finding better ways for Thailand and westerners to work together. I hate to keep going on about Singapore but the Singapore government recognises that foreign skills and investment are critical to producing a better economy and a better life for Singaporean citizens.

Singapore is far from the only example. Thailand is surounded by examples. Singapore, China, Japan, Vietnam, Philipines, India, all countries that have realized the benifit of doing as you suggested. All countries are still very viable and not "corupted" by the west. The problem is, Thailand just does not care.

[camerata]

Singapore is far from the only example. Thailand is surounded by examples. Singapore, China, Japan, Vietnam, Philipines, India, all countries that have realized the benifit of doing as you suggested.

Japan, in fact, is quite similar to Thailand. Despite being occupied for a while, it was never colonized by a Western power and it doesn't have any policy of encouraging immigration or naturalization. Like Thailand, it needs unskilled labour but is afraid of giving that labour any rights of residence.

[Jingthing]

Well, this has been interesting, but I think the bottom line is that we just have to accept things here the way they are, and if we cen't live with it, nobody is going to be upset if we hightail it outta here.

[ade100]

Couldn't the group be more focussed on collaboration than criticising Government Policy? I.e. finding better ways for Thailand and westerners to work together. I hate to keep going on about Singapore but the Singapore government recognises that foreign skills and investment are critical to producing a better economy and a better life for Singaporean citizens.

Singapore is far from the only example. Thailand is surounded by examples. Singapore, China, Japan, Vietnam, Philipines, India, all countries that have realized the benifit of doing as you suggested. All countries are still very viable and not "corupted" by the west. The problem is, Thailand just does not care.

Agreed with all but your last point. I think Thailand does care about forign investment they are just not as experienced at dealing with it as say HK or SG. I think it was January of this year that they made major changes to the foreign investment laws and then had to change them back again when they realised the impact.

[ade100]

Well, this has been interesting, but I think the bottom line is that we just have to accept things here the way they are, and if we cen't live with it, nobody is going to be upset if we hightail it outta here.

I would like to try to do something about it but don't fancy risking the Thai jail option. Might be better to work through existing legal entities such as the embassies. I will write to the UK Embassy and let you know if I get a reply.

[camerata]

The foreign chambers of commerce have quite a bit of clout and have discussed visa and work permit issues with the government before.

[Dakhar]

I imagine the extended family members that reside in Thailand would care, the "entertainment" industry would care, but beyond that... nope, I don't think anyone else would care.

I once had a subordinante to me at work say, "Falang go home," which was responded to with giggles etc. She was fired the next day. To be honest, I didn't get too uspset about the affair, because I knew she was only repeating what she has been taught, and shaped by this culture and govt.

She was fired because her position that she was supposed to fill would require her to work with foriengers... her attitude shined through... so she got the boot after 2 weeks with the company.

[LinkPopularity]

well, it's give and take, if my own country was more like Thailand towards immigration it would be a better place !

I understand where your idea of us being second class comes from, but I don't see it like that.

it's because they fear our superiority, that they don't give us citizenship, at least in my case ;-)

I can't blame them for it, sure it can be frustrating from time to time, but it's a small price to pay for all the other advantages ...

[mr_hippo]

People who complain about being second class citizens probably are.

Regardless of where they live.

Naka.

You and I and countless others are not treated as second class, we give respect and in return are respected. Others here think the world owes them a living. Do any of us own a pair of rose-tinted glasses? I doubt it! Do we have the occasional whinge and moan? Of course, we do but we did back home! Double pricing? We have that in the West and I don't see anyone complaining that they do not get pensioner's prices when they are not pensioners - can some poster here start campaigning back home to right this terrible wrong?

So, as naka said, if you feel second class then you probably are - or lower!

[nidge]

Apart from visa issues, what can anyone do to make you feel like 1st class citizens?

From what i have read so far there are plenty here, (including myself), that do not feel second class.

Those of you that feel second class have issues with how Thai people treat you. What can the government do to change how Thai people class you? In my opinion, absolutely nothing. What ever the government say, the real people on the street with treat you as they see you. Go with the flow and accept life as they do and perhaps you will fit in. Fight with every obstacle you come across and they will think you are a <deleted>. But then again so will I.

[Dakhar]

Agreed with all but your last point. I think Thailand does care about forign investment they are just not as experienced at dealing with it as say HK or SG

You want to get some people experienced with dealling with foriengers hire up some Pro-girls. I am not kidding, I know of one private hospital that has at least a dozen ex-pro's working customer relations type jobs. I hate to say it is funny, but they all wear scarves strategically placed to hide their tatoos. Not knocking them though, the got out of the life, work in a better, safer environment, and do their job just fine.

[GuestHouse]

Advocacy Group - Now that sounds like a good idea.

But who would you get to join, run, participate or even support such a group?

Look around you, the vast majority of expats in Thailand are not the kind of people who are likely to ''Take Part" in any collective endeavour - You can see that in answers to posts here on TV - Someone reports having been a victim of a blatant injustice and half the responses are along the lines of 'Som-Nam-Nar' - a fair few respond with 'If you don't like it s0d off home'.

I take a pretty dim view of most expats in Thailand - amongst which is my view that most expats in Thailand are more concerned with cold beer and luke warm women than they are with Rights (let alone rights for others).

I suspect if an advocacy group did set up and looked like rocking the boat and getting some of the rights people have said they would like, there would be a stampede of expats eager to undermine, back stab or do what ever they think the Thai authorities want doing in the sorry hope that they personally might be allowed to stay a bit longer.

Nah, Rights the world over come after people struggle for rights and make sacrifices for rights.

Take another look around you.

[SoCal]

The foreign chambers of commerce have quite a bit of clout and have discussed visa and work permit issues with the government before.

Spot on, but most people would rather complain and vent, than actually do something positive.

[ade100]

The foreign chambers of commerce have quite a bit of clout and have discussed visa and work permit issues with the government before.

Great idea. Just Googled it: "http://members.bccthai.com/bcct/asp/default.asp". Thats the Brit one BTW.

They also list at the bottom of the page a whole load of other organisations such as the Britih Council and the EC Delegation in Thailand. I am going to reach out to some of these organisations and see what sort of response I get. I don't expect to change the world in a day but it would be nice to make some effort in the right direction.

[AA1]

Immigration has nothing to do with the basic human right of treating people as equals.

We dont want to be treated as equals, though, do we? Let's be honest for a while.

We want to have it all our own way. We want to come over to a third world country with our money and lord it over the locals. We want to capitalise on our goodluck of being born in the west and transfer our wealth to a poorer country because - well - that makes us even more like farang gods.

We use our relative wealth to insulate ourselves from the realities of a third world existence but when our gracious hosts (who, frankly, tolerate far more than i would from the quality of foreigners i see every day) say we can't own land to protect their own people from us using our money to raise prices, we complain. "Hey, not fair. Why not? Why not? Whine a lot, we're second class citizens.

Well, boo fuc_king hoo.

Grow up and accept it and be thankful that you're allowed to be here at all.

Ask yourselves a simple question. Would you be prepared to give up your home citizenship if it was easier to get Thai citizenship? If the answer is no, then you really have nothing to complain about.

Bendix,

I agree with you 100%. Exactly what I felt when reading some of the posts.

The Thais have every right to decide on who should live in their country after all it is their country NOT ours.

If you don't like the system here, go home and live with the system there!!

I'm very happy here in Thailand, thank you.

[ade100]

We seem to be drifting into two areas: Firstly the “If you don’t like it you can go home” argument and secondly a self fulfilling prophecy argument (If you think you are second class, you will become just that). I am sure these points are very valid but to discuss the second would involve all sorts of complex psychology that I am not qualified to comment on.

However some of the more down to earth posts seem to be saying that daily life in Thailand could be improved for the Ex-Pat community if improvements were made in some of the following areas: Visas, Work Permits, rights to buy property, rights to buy land, rights to set up a company, etc. And maybe allowing more foreigners to become citizens and have voting rights especially when married to a Thai national.

For me this is not about complaining about Thailand it is more about trying to find a win-win solution. Singapore and HK have benefited from opening up to more foreign skills and investment without destroying their identity. I am sure Thailand could do the same.

[Naam]

It is asking why the international people here don’t do more to oppose it.

Looking forward to your intelligent, informed, charming and witty replies. Please try to resist replies in the “if you don’t like it, you can F off” genre as I am already aware of this option.

my (very personal) answer to your above mentioned question:

some of the "international" people (like me) are still able to think rationally -inspite of the chaos which surrounds them- and are not willing to waste their precious time à la Don Quijote de la Mancha

[Naam]

Second Class Citizens, Why do we put up with it?

we are not "second class citizens". we are nothing more than (barely) tolerated guests at the whims and mercy of the authorities. and if these authorities find out we don't have money to bring in and spend we are unwanted guests

welcome to reality!

[AA1]

I understand what you are trying to say Ade 1 BUT both Hong Kong & Singapore were for many, years British colonies and therefore influenced by Western systems.

Thailand has basically been independant through most of its history so still wants to keep its Thainess rather than have it watered down by being told what to do. During the 90s. crash of the Baht, when I was doing business between England and Thailand, I know from the businessmen I was dealing with how much it hurt being told what to do by the World Bank. At the same time they could not understand how we, the British, could sell Rolls Royce to a foreign company.

Their independence is very important to them.

[lazeeboy]

People who complain about being second class citizens probably are.

Regardless of where they live.

Naka.

here here ,i've treated all thai's with respect as i cant tell who is high class and low class ,apart from the obvious,if our own country made it as difficult to stay for foreiners as thailand does maybe some of us would still be in our mother land

[ade100]

I understand what you are trying to say Ade 1 BUT both Hong Kong & Singapore were for many, years British colonies and therefore influenced by Western systems.

Thailand has basically been independant through most of its history so still wants to keep its Thainess rather than have it watered down by being told what to do. During the 90s. crash of the Baht, when I was doing business between England and Thailand, I know from the businessmen I was dealing with how much it hurt being told what to do by the World Bank. At the same time they could not understand how we, the British, could sell Rolls Royce to a foreign company.

Their independence is very important to them.

Yes I can see your point too. I could be fighting a losing battle. But then sometimes even the most nationalistic of countries can opt for collaboration when the economic argument is right.

Look at France. They adopted the Euro and abandoned the glorious Franc Francais. In doing so they lost their rights to fully control the glorious French economy.

Vive la republique. Vive la France !

Edited December 4, 2007 by ade100

[PeaceBlondie]

Indeed, we who are here on tourist or non-immigrant visas are guests of the Kingdom. Even permanent residents are. No matter how much we spend, how many luk kreung we spawn, no matter how much Thai food we eat or Thai students we teach. Guests, and barely even 'invited guests.' Nobody begged me to come here; I just came in by their grace, and by their grace I remain. Guests in my home are not given free rein to tell me what to do, how to do it, etc. Guests don't have many rights. I am treated with at least as much courtesy and respect here as in my native country.

To those who want a cause to support, maybe this is worthy of your best efforts. I don't recall Mother Theresa working for such rights. I doubt we have the support of our national presidents or prime ministers. My prez may be telling me, "Yankee stay away from home!"

[LoveDaBlues]

When I move there in a few years you will all be second class to me.

You will buy me beers and massage my feet.

Ok ok.......can I at least wear gloves and skip the 'happy ending'?

[whopper]

Why do I live here? it is cheap, and I don't have to work

[LoveDaBlues]

Why do I live here? it is cheap, and I don't have to work

I like someone who gets to the point. Good answer.

I don't have to work either......but with a kid on the way.....that's about to change.

[bendix]

Bendix,

I agree with you 100%. Exactly what I felt when reading some of the posts.

Understandable. You're obviously a very intelligent and discerning person and a welcome addition to the forum.

[edwardandtubs]

I think a lot of the frustration at Thai immigration policies and attitudes to foreigners stems from the fact that in the west we have ultra liberal immigration policies and the government is keen to promote multiculturalism and enforce minority rights. It seems unfair to many that immigrants coming to 'our' countries are given rights that 'we' are not given when we live in 'their' countries. The truth is though, most people in Europe would rather have immigration policies in their own countries similar to Thai immigration policies. If that's how someone feels they would be better off campaigning for stricter immigration controls in their own country rather than trying to change things in Thailand.