Second Class Citizens

[Jingthing]

For those on retirement extensions, there is no path towards perm residence, they have exactly the

That makes sense to me. Permanent Residence status in Thailand is "pre-Naturalization" status. Typically, when a country gives someone a shot at citizenship they are looking for a person who will make a significant contribution to the economy, usually by means of much-needed skills or labour. Most retirees from overseas don't fall into that category.

Not citizenship. Increased status in some kind of permanent residence. Otherwise, you have 80 year olds being shipped back for an immigration technicality after they have lived here 20 years and nothing to move back to. That is inhumane, for such people, Thailand IS home. Many of the countries that offer retirement status for foreigners DO offer a path towards more perm status. What is not logical is that a retiree on day one has the exact same status as a retiree at year 20.

As far as retirees not offering anything, according to the Philippine government for each one foreign retiree, FIVE jobs are created for local Filipinos. Thailand and the Philippines are at similar economic levels, so I can assure you jobs are created as well for Thais in Thailand by resident foreign retirees.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[bendix]

Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

So what's stopping you from applying for it. The process is relatively simple and well-known. There are plenty of posts about it on this forum.

[Jingthing]

Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

So what's stopping you from applying for it. The process is relatively simple and well-known. There are plenty of posts about it on this forum.

On a retirement extension, not eligible, there is no path. You didn't know this?

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[siamamerican]

Do all the single American or english guys think Thai's should be able to head off there and live permanently on 3 month visda's and be entitled to PR quickly?

Where did you get that idea? Nor the other way for farangs to Thailand.

Here is but one example:

For those on retirement extensions, there is no path towards perm residence, they have exactly the same TEMP status the first year, or the 30th year. That is OBJECTIVELY unreasonable, and it is common for other countries to offer a path towards more perm status after a significant period of time living in the new country, for example, five years.

Thailand depends on tourism and have wisely made it easy for tourists to receive 1-3 month visas. I can decide I want to jump on a plane tomorrow and arrive in Bangkok the next day with no visa worries. I then can proceed to spend money and increase Thailand's GDP. Thailand visa regs are the friendliest I've encountered traveling the globe.

Would Thailand benefit from simplifying the permanent residency process? I don't know. It sure seems Thailand has a large number of foreigners that retire and invest in Thailand. For my own benefit, I wish the permanent residency was a possibility, but the system seems to work.

[Prakanong]

Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

So what's stopping you from applying for it. The process is relatively simple and well-known. There are plenty of posts about it on this forum.

What are the criteria though? - I thought it was something like 3 times 1 year visa's consecutively plus certain tax paid

Does the tax issue not put up barriers for a retiree?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I must say, i think the Thai authorities have it right.

Just look at the millions of immigrants who arrived in the UK under my watch.

Tony.

The hour of decision is nigh Tony. Which nickname do you want to keep ?

Cat got your tongue ?

[Jingthing]

Siam, many many countries offer no-visa tourism entries to people from rich countries. Thailand is not exceptional in this in any way. In fact, by limiting the stamp to 30 days, they are on the restrictive side compared to say Mexico where you can get SIX MONTHS fresh off the airplane.

As far as retirement extensions, yes, they are easy enough to get, but the catch 22 is there is no path towards something better, and what they do offer is indeed more limited than most other countries offering retirement visa programs. Of course, we choose to live where we want to live, so it is no good saying, move to another country if you don't like the low status possible for you, most of us here very much want to stay in Thailand.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

So what's stopping you from applying for it. The process is relatively simple and well-known. There are plenty of posts about it on this forum.

What are the criteria though? - I thought it was something like 3 times 1 year visa's consecutively plus certain tax paid

Does the tax issue not put up barriers for a retiree?

People on retirement extensions are not allowed to work in Thailand so wouldn't be paying Thai tax, now would they?

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[camerata]

Increased status in some kind of permanent residence. Otherwise, you have 80 year olds being shipped back for an immigration technicality after they have lived here 20 years and nothing to move back to.

The problem here is that they change the rules so no one feels secure. If retirees could be sure they just have to keep renewing their visa once a year without any drastic changes, the situation would be much better.

As far as retirees not offering anything, according to the Philippine government for each one foreign retiree, FIVE jobs are created for local Filipinos. Thailand and the Philippines are at similar economic levels, so I can assure you jobs are created as well for Thais in Thailand by resident foreign retirees.

LOL. I'd like to see the proof of that.

[Prakanong]

Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

So what's stopping you from applying for it. The process is relatively simple and well-known. There are plenty of posts about it on this forum.

What are the criteria though? - I thought it was something like 3 times 1 year visa's consecutively plus certain tax paid

Does the tax issue not put up barriers for a retiree?

People on retirement extensions are not allowed to work in Thailand so wouldn't be paying Thai tax, now would they?

And that was my point - retirress like you said have to live year by year with no route to PR.

Married men can not even get PR due to marriage too like you can in some countires such as Singapore and ILR in the UK.

[Jingthing]

Increased status in some kind of permanent residence. Otherwise, you have 80 year olds being shipped back for an immigration technicality after they have lived here 20 years and nothing to move back to.

The problem here is that they change the rules so no one feels secure. If retirees could be sure they just have to keep renewing their visa once a year without any drastic changes, the situation would be much better.

As far as retirees not offering anything, according to the Philippine government for each one foreign retiree, FIVE jobs are created for local Filipinos. Thailand and the Philippines are at similar economic levels, so I can assure you jobs are created as well for Thais in Thailand by resident foreign retirees.

LOL. I'd like to see the proof of that.

No, that is silly. You say the problem is changing rules. Yes, that is a problem. A lack of a path towards perm residence is yet another problem. In the real world, there can be many problems, yes?

I don't have proof of how many jobs per retiree are created for Thais; that is why I cited the Filipino statistic. It is only logical that also in Thailand SOME jobs are created, whatever the number, yes? So to say retirees are totally useless to Thailand economically is false. Here in Pattaya, many low level Thais earn 4000 baht a month. Even a budget retiree spends 30K baht a month, money coming from outside the country, and this NEW money circulates throughout the Thai economy. You don't have to be an advanced economist to see that it is obvious jobs are created. Also, this town would be much worse off in LOW SEASON, where much of the local custom is indeed from resident expats.

Back to the second class citizen thing. Well, if you aren't a citizen, and you aren't a resident, but still you live here full time on one year extensions, I really don't know exactly what you are, but most certainly you are not a first class citizen or a first class ANYTHING.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[ade100]

No, that is silly. You say the problem is changing rules. Yes, that is a problem. A lack of a path towards perm residence is yet another problem. In the real world, there can be many problems, yes?

I don't have proof of how many jobs per retiree are created for Thais; that is why I cited the Filipino statistic. It is only logical that also in Thailand SOME jobs are created, whatever the number, yes? So to say retirees are totally useless to Thailand economically is false. Here in Pattaya, many low level Thais earn 4000 baht a month. Even a budget retiree spends 30K baht a month, money coming from outside the country, and this NEW money circulates throughout the Thai economy. You don't have to be an advanced economist to see that it is obvious jobs are created. Also, this town would be much worse off in LOW SEASON, where much of the local custom is indeed from resident expats.

Back to the second class citizen thing. Well, if you aren't a citizen, and you aren't a resident, but still you live here full time on one year extensions, I really don't know exactly what you are, but most certainly you are not a first class citizen or a first class ANYTHING.

You make an interesting point about the low season. It is exactly the same in Phuket where for six months of the year even the businesses that are not directly related to tourism suffer greatly.

Most visitors come on a 30 day visa and probably stay for just a couple of weeks. If people could be encouraged to to stay on a more permanent basis the economy of the region could benefit greatly particularly through the six month rainy season.

On another point. You say that a retiree spends at least 30k per month where as a local may only earn 4k per month. Couldn't this make a retiree feel like a VIP citizen and a Thai, a second class citizen?

Edited December 5, 2007 by ade100

[Jingthing]

On another point. You say that a retiree spends at least 60k per month where as a local may only earn 4k per month. Couldn't this make a retiree feel like a VIP citizen and a Thai, a second class citizen?

Sure, if you think money is everything. Legal and residence status-wise, no. In that sense, we are no more than glorified tourists, and usually treated as such.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[siamamerican]

Siam, many many countries offer no-visa tourism entries to people from rich countries. Thailand is not exceptional in this in any way. In fact, by limiting the stamp to 30 days, they are on the restrictive side compared to say Mexico where you can get SIX MONTHS fresh off the airplane.

As far as retirement extensions, yes, they are easy enough to get, but the catch 22 is there is no path towards something better, and what they do offer is indeed more limited than most other countries offering retirement visa programs. Of course, we choose to live where we want to live, so it is no good saying, move to another country if you don't like the low status possible for you, most of us here very much want to stay in Thailand.

I agree, there are other countries with lax visa requirements. I just haven't felt it any more difficult than countries like Mexico. I never said, move to another country. Why - when you want to stay in Thailand. I'm sure permanent residency it is more difficult than many countries. I'm moving to Thailand next year and have little concern about permanent residency. There are too many solutions to stay permanently if you desire.

[Jingthing]

There are too many solutions to stay permanently if you desire.

Great! There are none for those on retirement extensions though.

[camerata]

So to say retirees are totally useless to Thailand economically is false.

And of course I didn't say that. But from the government's perspective retirees probably don't contribute anything other than money - just like a tourist. That's not quite the same as work skills or the "social contribution" that is requested for PR. I think a real concern of the government here is that in Thailand social security is provided by one's extended family. I think they are concerend at the idea of having ageing foreign retirees with health and other problems and no one to take care of them. They are also concerned that retirement is an easy way for foreign criminals to set up base here. So I doubt retirement is ever going to be a more permanent status than what it is now.

[Jingthing]

They are also concerned that retirement is an easy way for foreign criminals to set up base here. So I doubt retirement is ever going to be a more permanent status than what it is now.

Actually, I don't think they see older people as criminals, and statistically, most criminals are not aged.

And when seniors get sick, they REALLY spend money.

I guess you are implying the many countries that do offer higher status for retirees who have been resident in their countries for many years are acting against their self interest. I doubt that.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[bendix]

On a retirement extension, not eligible, there is no path. You didn't know this?

Nice edit, 40 minutes after the original post . . .

No, i didnt know this. Why would I? The visa rules as they apply to anyone other than myself are of merely passing interest.

But I'm ok though, thanks for asking :-)

[camerata]

Back to the second class citizen thing. Well, if you aren't a citizen, and you aren't a resident, but still you live here full time on one year extensions, I really don't know exactly what you are, but most certainly you are not a first class citizen or a first class ANYTHING.

Why do you have to be in any class at all? I never thought of it that way. If you consider yourself to be 2nd class because of this, that, or the other, you'll always be dissatisfied. It's just another aspect of the victim mentality so prevalent among farang here.

[siamamerican]

There are too many solutions to stay permanently if you desire.

Great! There are none for those on retirement extensions though.

Can't you just renew your visa. If the answer is yes, then aren't you a permanent resident or at least a longterm resident? I'm not a retiree, so I don't know the rules.

Edited December 5, 2007 by siamamerican

[Jingthing]

On a retirement extension, not eligible, there is no path. You didn't know this?

Nice edit, 40 minutes after the original post . . .

No, i didnt know this. Why would I? The visa rules as they apply to anyone other than myself are of merely passing interest.

But I'm ok though, thanks for asking :-)

There was nothing sinister about my edit.

If you are going to arrogantly tell people to just apply for perm residence, that IMPLIES that you actually know something about who is eligible.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

There are too many solutions to stay permanently if you desire.

Great! There are none for those on retirement extensions though.

Can't you just renew your visa. If the answer is yes, then aren't you a permanent resident or atleast a longterm resident? I'm not a retiree, so I don't know the rules.

Sure, we are long term residents, subject to that ending every year, that is correct. That is a low status and nothing like a perm residency status.

[Jingthing]

Back to the second class citizen thing. Well, if you aren't a citizen, and you aren't a resident, but still you live here full time on one year extensions, I really don't know exactly what you are, but most certainly you are not a first class citizen or a first class ANYTHING.

Why do you have to be in any class at all? I never thought of it that way. If you consider yourself to be 2nd class because of this, that, or the other, you'll always be dissatisfied. It's just another aspect of the victim mentality so prevalent among farang here.

Another amateur psychologist. Everything is perfect. Satisfied?

Here I am not talking about something abstract or perception. I am talking about a reality. No path for long term retirees for an upgrade in status. You want people to shut off their brains when they move to Thailand?

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[JimsKnight]

Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

So what's stopping you from applying for it. The process is relatively simple and well-known. There are plenty of posts about it on this forum.

I believe one pre-requisite is marriage to a thai-national and that, for some folk, just isn't going to happen, so already a good chunk of expats are out of that one

[camerata]

They are also concerned that retirement is an easy way for foreign criminals to set up base here. So I doubt retirement is ever going to be a more permanent status than what it is now.

Actually, I don't think they see older people as criminals, and statistically, most criminals are not aged.

I didn't say they did.

I guess you are implying the many countries that do offer higher status for retirees who have been resident in their countries for many years are acting against their self interest. I doubt that.

I didn't imply that at all. Different countries have a different perspective on retirement.

[siamamerican]

There are too many solutions to stay permanently if you desire.

Great! There are none for those on retirement extensions though.

Can't you just renew your visa. If the answer is yes, then aren't you a permanent resident or atleast a longterm resident? I'm not a retiree, so I don't know the rules.

Sure, we are long term residents, subject to that ending every year, that is correct. That is a low status and nothing like a perm residency status.

Ok, I'm fine with that. I guess I have self esteem problems. I get what you're saying - it is a little stressful not absolutely knowing your status next year. Permanent residency can be revoked or altered, so it's it not a guarantee also. Farangs have been living in Thailand for many years under the current system and I know of none that had money to support themselves that were deported.

[Jingthing]

Siam, I think you are trivializing what has happened and can happen to some older, settled people here due to immigration problems. This has absolutely nothing to do with self esteem.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

I agree with all this but have a comment on one point:

"Nobody begged me to come here; I just came in by their grace"

I am sure nobody begged you personally but let's get this into perspective. Phuket which is my second home, relies on tourism. In fact 80% of the revenue of the region is generated by tourism (and that includes not just short term visitors but people retiring and buying places to live there).

So let us not paint a picture of an indifferent Thailand with the Expats begging to stay. Thailand needs its guest, relies on them and could not survive without them. I am arguing for mutual repect and collaboration between guest and host.

I believe that p1p has just posted a semi-official statistic that overall in Thailand, tourism only contributes 8% of the entire gross national product, so Phuket would be extremely abnormal at 80%. Tourists with the cash to visit Phuket for a week or month are treated like first class or privileged guests.

Thailand needs tourists, but would be self sufficient without one foreign tourist. Expatriates do benefit the Thai economy one very very tiny bit, but we're not on the radar screen.

Every year, I beg to stay; I beg to receive their grace. They do not grant me that status that may apply in the UK, indefinite leave to remain here. I use 'grace' in the Protestant sense, undeserved favor. They don't owe me one stamp in my passport.

Someone besides me has mentioned Mexico. Mexican retirement visas are only granted annually, and the renewals are subject to arbitrary decisions by the local immigration officials in each place. Same as Thailand.

My money, education, and other factors give me more economic rights than most Thais. Now that I no longer teach as an ajarn, I do not expect to have an elevated position in Thai society. I'm not fully integrated into the culture, and may never integrate.

[Jingthing]

Someone besides me has mentioned Mexico. Mexican retirement visas are only granted annually, and the renewals are subject to arbitrary decisions by the local immigration officials in each place. Same as Thailand.

There is indeed a path towards perm residence in Mexico for retirees. It is a different visa class, you can apply after living there for some years.

I'm not fully integrated into the culture, and may never integrate.

Yes, and those one one year short leashes have little incentive to integrate. I am sure if we did alot more of us would be fluent in Thai.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[siamamerican]

Siam, I think you are trivializing what has happened to some older, settled people here due to immigration problems. This has absolutely nothing to do with self esteem.

Good point. I lack the knowledge of the issues older people are facing, so I'll shut up.