Second Class Citizens

[camerata]

Another amateur psychologist. Everything is perfect. Satisfied?

I'm just offering you another perspective and another option to whining and feeling 2nd class. I've been here 25 years and had far worse problems than you ever will, but because I was positive and realistic about it I didn't become bitter when the chips were down. I appreciate the OP's concern in wanting to make things better, but things already are much better in many ways than they were before. For example, up until 1992 everyone staying in-country longer than 90 days a year had to get a Tax Clearance Certificate before they could leave the country - what a nightmare that was! If you couldn't show proof of income, they would "assess" your income and you had to pay tax on that. Not to mention the Thai guarantor you were required to have.

[Jingthing]

I'm just offering you another perspective and another option to whining and feeling 2nd class.

Accepted, but this has nothing to do with whining or "feeling" 2nd class. It is about real policies that have real effects.

[camerata]

I believe one pre-requisite is marriage to a thai-national and that, for some folk, just isn't going to happen, so already a good chunk of expats are out of that one

It isn't necessary to have a relationship with any Thai citizen to get PR, but it costs more if you are single. I got it as a single guy.

[Prakanong]

Another amateur psychologist. Everything is perfect. Satisfied?

I'm just offering you another perspective and another option to whining and feeling 2nd class. I've been here 25 years and had far worse problems than you ever will, but because I was positive and realistic about it I didn't become bitter when the chips were down. I appreciate the OP's concern in wanting to make things better, but things already are much better in many ways than they were before. For example, up until 1992 everyone staying in-country longer than 90 days a year had to get a Tax Clearance Certificate before they could leave the country - what a nightmare that was! If you couldn't show proof of income, they would "assess" your income and you had to pay tax on that. Not to mention the Thai guarantor you were required to have.

Was it 92 that the Tax Clearance ended - for some reason I thought it was a little later than that.

I had heard about the hassle it was though from guy's that travelled a lot around the region based in Thailand for work.

[ade100]

Another amateur psychologist. Everything is perfect. Satisfied?

I'm just offering you another perspective and another option to whining and feeling 2nd class. I've been here 25 years and had far worse problems than you ever will, but because I was positive and realistic about it I didn't become bitter when the chips were down. I appreciate the OP's concern in wanting to make things better, but things already are much better in many ways than they were before. For example, up until 1992 everyone staying in-country longer than 90 days a year had to get a Tax Clearance Certificate before they could leave the country - what a nightmare that was! If you couldn't show proof of income, they would "assess" your income and you had to pay tax on that. Not to mention the Thai guarantor you were required to have.

Wow! A tax clearence certificate just to leave the country. I had never heard of that. I am glad things appear to be moving in the right direction. Would you say in general Thailand is becoming more open to foreigners in terms of Visas, WPs, employment opportunities etc? And do you think there have been any major steps backwards?

Thanks for the insights.

[Prakanong]

Another amateur psychologist. Everything is perfect. Satisfied?

I'm just offering you another perspective and another option to whining and feeling 2nd class. I've been here 25 years and had far worse problems than you ever will, but because I was positive and realistic about it I didn't become bitter when the chips were down. I appreciate the OP's concern in wanting to make things better, but things already are much better in many ways than they were before. For example, up until 1992 everyone staying in-country longer than 90 days a year had to get a Tax Clearance Certificate before they could leave the country - what a nightmare that was! If you couldn't show proof of income, they would "assess" your income and you had to pay tax on that. Not to mention the Thai guarantor you were required to have.

Wow! A tax clearence certificate just to leave the country. I had never heard of that. I am glad things appear to be moving in the right direction. Would you say in general Thailand is becoming more open to foreigners in terms of Visas, WPs, employment opportunities etc? And do you think there have been any major steps backwards?

Thanks for the insights.

But it was really for people on non-imm B for a full year with a WP ie you were working in Thailand and had to prove you had paid tax and not doing a runner - anyone? - is that correct?

All those living here in a "permanent" status (I use the term loosely) on 3 months visa's and going to the border every 90 days would not be affected and there would have been plenty living on 30 day visa's then too.

[PeaceBlondie]

In the USA, sometimes you need(ed) a tax clearance before leaving the country as an alien. I once collected a huge sum of income tax on a South American who was three days from going home. We could also consider that the largest number of aliens in Thailand are illegals from neighboring countries, not from farang countries.

[ade100]

I believe that p1p has just posted a semi-official statistic that overall in Thailand, tourism only contributes 8% of the entire gross national product, so Phuket would be extremely abnormal at 80%. Tourists with the cash to visit Phuket for a week or month are treated like first class or privileged guests.

Thailand needs tourists, but would be self sufficient without one foreign tourist. Expatriates do benefit the Thai economy one very very tiny bit, but we're not on the radar screen.

I was looking for evidence to back up my 80% statistc but couldn't find anything in English. My gf says that in fact the statistic is that 80% of jobs in the region are in the tourist industry. Knowing the region fairly well I would say this is accurate. The island initially became rich through tin mining but the industry no longer exists. It then turned to rubber. Most of the island's interiors are now covered in rubber tree forests but most of them are no longer worked. I know ex-rubber tappers who now drive tuk tuks or work in hotels.

You say Thailand could be self sufficient without tourists. I would say Phuketeers are survivors so yes they would find a way to survive. But with 80% of the jobs in the region being destroyed, it would be extremely painful. I say best not go down that route. I say best for them to move towards more openess and greater collaboration with the internatinal community.

[Prakanong]

In the USA, sometimes you need(ed) a tax clearance before leaving the country as an alien. I once collected a huge sum of income tax on a South American who was three days from going home. We could also consider that the largest number of aliens in Thailand are illegals from neighboring countries, not from farang countries.

In Singapore at the end of your EP you have to prove to your company you have paid all taxes or they withhold the last months salary etc and although not certain I am pretty sure you have to prove your tax is paid up before you leave for the last time.

I think the 1 month is about the equivalent that most people pay tax here I have heard - I have paid tax once here on 3 months salary and it was nowhere near 1/12 of my income though

Edited December 5, 2007 by Prakanong

[Khun ?]

reciprocal

Get what one gives. Thais in foreign countries should get the same as their country gives!

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

ahh, recipriocity...

love it. I can see it now. Farang tourists lining up outside the royal Thai embassy in London, Washington, or Canberra. Freezing cold an pissing down rain. All the old codgers who have been there since 2am, manila folder of application forms and evidence all bound together so they can submit their tourist visa applications before 10am. Pay the $200 to apply.

They finally get an interview and go into a closed room with bullet proof glass between the interviewee and the embassy staff.

- What is the purpose of your visit to Thailand?

- How much money do you have in the bank?

- What guarantee can you give that you won't undertake illegal actitvities while you are in Thailand?

.

.

.

.

then the embassy staff member goes "hold on, you haven't submitted your 4th grade school report. I notice that you haven't finished high school either". You are from a poor background, and you don't have evidence of travel anywhere else which would suggest you aren't a safe travel risk.

Application

REJECTED.

NEXT!

Not talking about toursit visa! Residence is what the issue is and you do have to prove that you have the means just like thais do. Only reasonable countries of high poverty rates would have a bit more requirements for tourist visas and entry on

arrival. The problem is quite different when it becomes to residence, foreigners are and will never be able to be other than

a foreign source of money. No residence allowed, no private ownership of anything, other than the passport from your home country is allowed! Everything in your life is dependant upon what stamp is in your passport.

[ade100]

Not talking about toursit visa! Residence is what the issue is and you do have to prove that you have the means just like thais do. Only reasonable countries of high poverty rates would have a bit more requirements for tourist visas and entry on

arrival. The problem is quite different when it becomes to residence, foreigners are and will never be able to be other than

a foreign source of money. No residence allowed, no private ownership of anything, other than the passport from your home country is allowed! Everything in your life is dependant upon what stamp is in your passport.

Not entirely true. A foreigner can own a condominium and even house (but not the land it is built on). But agreed, owning a luxury condominium is not much use if you can't get back into the country.

[Khun ?]

Not talking about toursit visa! Residence is what the issue is and you do have to prove that you have the means just like thais do. Only reasonable countries of high poverty rates would have a bit more requirements for tourist visas and entry on

arrival. The problem is quite different when it becomes to residence, foreigners are and will never be able to be other than

a foreign source of money. No residence allowed, no private ownership of anything, other than the passport from your home country is allowed! Everything in your life is dependant upon what stamp is in your passport.

Not entirely true. A foreigner can own a condominium and even house (but not the land it is built on). But agreed, owning a luxury condominium is not much use if you can't get back into the country.

I guess it is great owning a condo if you are not issued a visa to be in country because the immigration person

decided that the day you had to renew your visa he needed some pocket cash, or you wore sandals in to do your application. Every time it is vias time you have to prove yourself again even if you take care of 5 generations

of locals own 20 businesses with all thai employees. Your toast if the noodle stand person at the corner has the right

connection and a few baht. Your out and he is in your condo, he'll probably wiat for you to put the big screen in first though.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Khun ?

[kangeroo]

yes i live in thai and aus ,have a thai family even though im not married , i feel like a first class citizen in thai and aus , .but i know that if i could not pay my way it would not take long to go from first to second class. and i dont care how much they tell you they need you .

[ade100]

But are you really likening being in Thailand to being in prison?

No, of course not. Sorry you didn't get the moral of the story and I accept the fault as I am no Tolstoy.

The story was about perceptions. I stand by the western concept that there is such a thing as objective reality, and that it does not constitute whining to describe that reality and/or even to try change it for the better.

I am very happy the blacks in America have "whined" so much in the past and still have room to continue "whining." It seems some people here would have called Rosa Parks, who refused to sit in the back of the bus, a whiner.

OK I get it now :-)

So I fully agree that human rights and social equality have been achieved through people fighting for them. Indifference will not achieve anything.

However for me "whining" or "complaining" are words more to do with a negative frame of mind that would not lead to positive action. So I wouldn't say the blacks in America "whined" exactly. I would say they organised themsleves, took action and stood up for what they believed in.

And that's just what I will be doing when I write my letters to the embassies and chmabers of commerce :-)

[camerata]

Was it 92 that the Tax Clearance ended - for some reason I thought it was a little later than that.

It was either 1991 or 1992 during Anand Panyarachun's tenure as prime minister. He ended the much-reviled tax clearance system and also ended the regulation that only government employees and CEOs were allowed to own a satellite dish.

[camerata]

But it was really for people on non-imm B for a full year with a WP ie you were working in Thailand and had to prove you had paid tax and not doing a runner - anyone? - is that correct?

All those living here in a "permanent" status (I use the term loosely) on 3 months visa's and going to the border every 90 days would not be affected and there would have been plenty living on 30 day visa's then too.

It was required for a stay totalling over 90 days in any one year. I had to pay it when I was bumming around on a non-imm visa and also when I was working with a WP on a 3-month non-imm visa. Businessmen who spent more than 90 days in Thailand doing whatever had to get it. There was a huge sign on the wall of the main all at the Revenue Dept office on Ratchadamnoen that said, "Every person working in Thailand must have a work permit." The government seemed to think there were foreigners doing business here and not paying tax.

[camerata]

Would you say in general Thailand is becoming more open to foreigners in terms of Visas, WPs, employment opportunities etc? And do you think there have been any major steps backwards?

It's difficult to say, because some things have improved but the recent visa changes definitely look like a step backward as far as some foreigners are concerned. Every year there are more WPs granted, so I think that speaks for itself, but the number is dependent on the health of the economy. The Golden Years for business were from 1984 to the economic slump in 1997, when many small, foreign firms went bust.

When I first came here there were no tourist visas on arrival (only transit visa for 2 weeks) and I believe the tourist visa was only 1 month. To extend it was very difficult.

It seems to me that while everything is faster and more convenient now - one-stop centres and so on - and the rules are clearer, better organization and technology means Immigration has more control and some "short-cuts" have been closed. If you apply for PR now in support of a Thai family, you'll have to do a DNA paternity test for your children! WPs used to be issued by the Interior Ministry, and their office was a bedlam of Thai "agents" all elbowing their way to the front desk. Queues and tickets were unknown.

The fee for PR used to be a flat 50,000 baht, accepted or rejected. The year before I applied they changed it to 200,000 baht for a successful application, but a 7,500 baht fee if rejected. This seems fairer if one is rejected but I personally could have saved a lot of money by applying earlier. All together it cost me a quarter of a million baht to get PR - and I'm on a Thai salary.

I think job opportunities depend on the economy. It was certainly pretty easy to get a job before 1997.

[IMA_FARANG]

I spend half my time in Singapore where my work is based but have a second home on Phuket. As an educated professional, it was very easy for me to get a Work Permit for Singapore. I could become a Permanent Resident or even a Singapore Citizen at any time. I am treated as an equal by the host society and my skills are recognised and in demand.

Contrast this with Thailand. Work Permits and Visas are not easy to come by. It is extremely difficult to become a Thai citizen even if married to a Thai. Consequently most of us will never be able to vote or to own land here. Even setting up a business is extremely difficult as a non-Thai. Jobs adverts often specify "Thai Nationality" and our skills are generally not welcome or recognised. Ex-Pats also complain about having to pay much higher prices than the locals do for pretty much everything.

In many countries immigrants have fought for their rights to be treated equally and to enjoy citizenship. Examples such as the African-Americans, the Afro-Caribbeans in the UK and the Maghrebians in France come to mind.

So why do we just accept second class citizen status? Why don't we stand up for our rights? If Asians can hold EU passports and participate in the life and the economy of the EU countries, why do we stay as outsiders in Thailand?

Note this is not a thread about Thailand's inequalities. It is asking why the international people here don't do more to oppose it.

Looking forward to your intelligent, informed, charming and witty replies. Please try to resist replies in the "if you don't like it, you can F off" genre as I am already aware of this option.

Lastly, apologies to the veterans who have discussed this before. I did do a search and found little on the topic.

I won't dispute that their is an inequality in Thai immigration law. It's just the way it is. Try being a Pakistani in the U.K. or a illegal Mexican immigrant in the U.S.A. (or a legal Mexican immigrant for that matter). You are always the bottom end of racial and ethnic stereotypes.

I think that everyone who stays in Thailand does it at his/her own choice. The fact is that most who stay here like it in Thailand. I, for example, would find it very difficult to actually live in the U.S. now. I've been ooutside the country too long, and I would feel like a stranger in my birth country.

As for Singapore, that isn't paradise either. Honestly, have you never been told, directly or indirectly in Singapore, that you are not Chinese enough to be part of the "real" Singapore? I have, and a British friend of mine, who was working as a junior executive in a firm in Singapore was once told by his girlfriend's mother that he simply was not acceptable as a potential husband for her daughter, even though he had a good job and good prospects, because he wasn't Chinese.

I also believe that many of the foriegners living in Thailand often are their own worst enemy. As an american in the U.K., how would I be treated if I spent much of my time criticising the differences between the U.S and the U.K. Wouldn't that go over big in a pub in London? So how do you think a Thai feels when a foriegner belittles Thai customs, and compares them unfavorably to the customs in his/her country?

But as for the immigration laws, I'm afraid much of that problem is due to the arrogance and stupidity often shown by foriegners. Why should anyone expect to be able to live in Thailand and "contribute" to Thai society, if their idea of "contribution" is to spend a lot of money on booze and hookers. Not that all foriegners do that, but enough do to make it seem to many Thais that is the case with all foriegners. So a few bad apples make everyone pay for their attitude.

I could spend a long time talking about theis, but I will cut it off here before I start boring everyone.

[samran]

For those on retirement extensions, there is no path towards perm residence, they have exactly the

That makes sense to me. Permanent Residence status in Thailand is "pre-Naturalization" status. Typically, when a country gives someone a shot at citizenship they are looking for a person who will make a significant contribution to the economy, usually by means of much-needed skills or labour. Most retirees from overseas don't fall into that category.

Not citizenship. Increased status in some kind of permanent residence. Otherwise, you have 80 year olds being shipped back for an immigration technicality after they have lived here 20 years and nothing to move back to. That is inhumane, for such people, Thailand IS home. Many of the countries that offer retirement status for foreigners DO offer a path towards more perm status. What is not logical is that a retiree on day one has the exact same status as a retiree at year 20.

As far as retirees not offering anything, according to the Philippine government for each one foreign retiree, FIVE jobs are created for local Filipinos. Thailand and the Philippines are at similar economic levels, so I can assure you jobs are created as well for Thais in Thailand by resident foreign retirees.

Jing Jing,

I see your point, but it is far from uniform through out the world that retirees get some sort of permanency. Australia for instance requires that a retiree visa holder transfer and invest at least $700K before the retirement visa is extended. No residency rights are given, that is there is no path to PR or citizenship for retirees which is only available to skilled migrants and family members of Australian citizens and PR's. If it becomes clear that you are unable to sustain yourself, it is back on the plane for you.

A devils advocate question: Why should anyone should anyone offer retiree's PR? They come to live here only after their productive years are behind them (or they no longer choose to work). If you are going to retire, you should be doing so knowing you are financially secure to do so? Why should a goverment and a country who you have contributed to nothing durning your most productive and economically active working years (presumably you worked in your home country) all of a sudden turn around and offer you a safety net if all of a sudden you can't affort to live here in a financially sustainable manner?

[Dakhar]

I don't care about PR, I just want secured financial investment with ability to control. Otherwise... I am just here for the time being.

[ray23]

Well I think each of us researched the law before we moved here and made the move. We were not forced into it.

An association to better thing for foriegners wonderful idea, but the truth is we really as a norm don't agree on too much. I belong to a local VFW now you would think that would be a common ground that people world help eachother, not so.

Yes it woudlo be nice but not probable

[gburns57au]

The reason Thailand has such restrictive Immigration Policies is because Thailand wants Thailand to remain Thai...

Lets look at Fiji....Indians were brought in to work as virtual slave labour...they now run the the country...the UK has been overrun by sub continent and caribbean migrants to the extent where the UK indigenous population has less rights than the migrated population.

There is nothing wrong with Thailand not wanting this to happen to their own country.

For those who want to start advocacy groups and challenge Thailands right to set its own agendas...I will qoute from a famous person although I will change the quote to reflect this topic...

"Think not of what Thailand can do for you....think of what you can do for Thailand."

[ade100]

The reason Thailand has such restrictive Immigration Policies is because Thailand wants Thailand to remain Thai...

Lets look at Fiji....Indians were brought in to work as virtual slave labour...they now run the the country...the UK has been overrun by sub continent and caribbean migrants to the extent where the UK indigenous population has less rights than the migrated population.

There is nothing wrong with Thailand not wanting this to happen to their own country.

For those who want to start advocacy groups and challenge Thailands right to set its own agendas...I will qoute from a famous person although I will change the quote to reflect this topic...

"Think not of what Thailand can do for you....think of what you can do for Thailand."

I have some sympathies with Thailand wanting to stay Thai but sometimes I wonder what it means.

When I used to live in the UK there were those that wanted to keep Britain British - Thr British National Party, The National Front, etc

Regardless of morality, I never really understood what it meant. British people descend from Vikings, Anglo Saxons, Normans, Romans, Celts, etc so it was never clever how a pure race could be defined.

Similarly in Thailand and especially in Phuket where I spend much of my time. In Phuket's recent history, 80% of the people living there were Chinese. Currently the Burmese population is massive.

[ade100]

the UK has been overrun by sub continent and caribbean migrants to the extent where the UK indigenous population has less rights than the migrated population.

Less rights? What nonsense.

Exactly. It should be "fewer" rights.

[Jingthing]

Of course, Thailand can do whatever it wants, fair or unfair. Why should they do anything they don't perceive is in the best interest of their country? All countries do that. But don't expect those of us farangutans who live here, or want to live here, to not notice and comment about it, when we think policies are either unfair or irrational.

Some people are calling that whining. I can think of much worse things to be called than a whiner. If you think that, so be it. I call it acknowledging an objective reality.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[gburns57au]

Of course, Thailand can do whatever it wants, fair or unfair. Why should they do anything they don't perceive is in the best interest of their country? All countries do that. But don't expect those of us farangutans who live here, or want to live here, to not notice and comment about it, when we think policies are either unfair or irrational.

The only people who perceive the policies as unfair or irrational are the people who are given grant to stay there as non indigenous guests.

it seems to be an "all about me attitude"...What is best for me...how can I gain advantage from this>

I say again ...if you really love Thailand.....

"Think not of what Thailand can do for you.....think of what you can do for Thailand"

[Jingthing]

"Think not of what Thailand can do for you.....think of what you can do for Thailand"

If all you think about is giving to a country that doesn't offer you a path to residence, you are much whiter and much more Christian than me (not Christian at all), my friend. Life is a two way street.

I reject your entire line of thinking. We are talking about fair treatment and humane reforms, not personal gain. It is a given that Thailand is going to get the best of any deal with us.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[gburns57au]

"Think not of what Thailand can do for you.....think of what you can do for Thailand"

If all you think about is giving to a country that doesn't offer you a path to residence, you are much whiter and much more Christian than me (not Christian at all), my friend. Life is a two way street.

I reject your entire line of thinking. We are talking about fair treatment and humane reforms, not personal gain. It is a given that Thailand is going to get the best of any deal with us.

Exactly what I meant....

You want something in return...I am giving to this country and therefore I deserve to get something back.

WHY?????

You accepted their terms and conditions when you went to live there...Now you want them to change the goalposts to suit you.

Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper....

To quote a song....

"What about me?....It isnt fair, I've had enough, now I want my share"

Edited December 5, 2007 by gburns57au

[Jingthing]

Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper....

Thanks, but you really don't want to see that.

Really, if you don't think its normal and natural to want to be treated fairly, whether in your home country or as a guest in another country, I can't relate to anything you say. The so called deal I agreed to changes all the time anyway, and yes, I knew that upfront, true.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[gburns57au]

Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper....

Thanks, but you really don't want to see that.

Maybe not....

Life is not what you put into it .....but what you get out of it.

Edited December 5, 2007 by gburns57au