I Took My Old Employer To Court

[thaigene2]

so, for anybody who has issues with an employer, i encourage you to stand your ground. seek out a good lawyer and do not be intimidated at all. the hotel tried to intimidate me by speaking to me like i was a piece of s*&t in the court room, but i did not lose heart. i stood by what i knew was right and by the fact that i did not do anything wrong.

i may be a non thai, but the law protected me as it would a thai person and i am thankful for that. for all of you who think that there is no justice for us westerners in this country, im happy to tell you that you are wrong.

hi Donna and congratulations!

I am glad that this is one more example of the Labour Court doing it's job (I've also heard this before - a shining example of how Thailand can work). So the LPA 1998 seems to be pretty solid if you have a contract. Well done. And well done to the judges! Hope you actually get the cash - please update when you do (or do not!).

[dog412]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Great outcome Donna. Congratulations.

[englishoak]

Point made congrats Donna

[thaipete]

the gm of the hotel sat there with her hands firmly in her lap with her lips pursed and said 'mai aow' when i extended my hand to her.

I can also concur from working in BKK 11 years now, that for some Thai women in higher positions, when the time comes to show their true colors, they prove to have the maturity level of a 7 year old child not getting the latest toy for Xmas.

I would have thought by not taking your hand after a court ruling, there in front of all was a big face loss to her not you Donna.

Great news on your win.

[LaoPo]

well, some of you may have followed my story which started six months ago when i was dismissed from my place of employment for no reason other than 'the head office doesnt want a farang doing this job'.

a very brief rundown of what has happened to me in the past six months is as follows:

i started work for a hotel in phuket on june 15, 2006. i did a great job, increased room revenue by 24% for the first five months of 2007, did things over and above my job description and was liked by my fellow employees and hotel guests. in fact, many hotel guests have become friends of mine now.

on june 13 this year, at close of business, i was told that i was no longer needed, give back the car keys and dont come in tomorrow. of course i was devastated and didnt really know what to do next. i consulted people from this forum who persuaded me to take this matter to court as there were laws to protect me against this kind of treatment.

i went to court for the first time where the hotel GM did not turn up, so the case was adjourned. my lawyer in bkk also stood me up so i was left floundering with no representation at the last minute which made me feel like an idiot but luckily the case was adjourned at the hotels instigation.

i then found a local lawyer here in phuket and went to court again on november 8 where the hotels team picked up on a minor thing in the original submission by the lawyer in saw in bkk and made a big deal out of it. they said that the bkk lawyer had stated that my contract did not have an end date, where in actual fact it did. this stupid error on his part made it seem impossible for me to win the case.

on that day, the hotel offered me 10,000thb to settle on the day and end the story. of course i did not agree to this, as i know by the law that i was entitled to a lot more than this and the 10,000thb did not even cover my legal fees.

at the end of that second hearing, i was feeling very 'woe is me' at the end as the judge and the lawyer for the hotel were very nasty and threatening in the way they spoke to me and my lawyer. but i stuck to my guns and would not withdraw the case, knowing that i should be able to win.

as we were sitting outside, a gentleman approached us and told us that there should be no problem with me winning this case. the reason is that the work i was doing was not a special project and was part of the every day running of the hotel business. he told me that i should win the case when i next went back, which was december 4, today. i later found out that this man was a judge (who was not working on my case, but who did say that everyone in the labour court knew of my case).

so, today we went back and i had the hotels old HR manager on my team, as well as their old financial controller, for moral support. after an initial debate about the way my contract was translated differently by each team, the judges went out the back for a coffee and discussion. then they came out all guns blazing saying that the hotel was clearly wrong in this case and that i had every right to sue them and win. the hotel cannot just fire me for no reason and that they should pay me 3 months salary as compensation.

as i had only been there for a year, the judge would not award damages, nor would he award me 30 days in lieu of notice, but i was very happy to just win the case and know that i was not living in a fantasy world thinking that i could sue a thai business and win. of course, i had the option of taking it higher if i wanted to, but this would have taken around a year to process and the legal fees would have been higher than the payout (i suspect), so i was more than happy to accept what they offered me today.

the judge told us to shake hands, and the gm of the hotel sat there with her hands firmly in her lap with her lips pursed and said 'mai aow' when i extended my hand to her. a member of her team then offered me his hand to shake and i accepted this. i also told the gm that i did not have any problem with her at all (she was not there when i was employed by the hotel). the gm ignored me and i feel that she did not do herself any favours in doing this.

the judge then asked me what i was planning to do now and i told him that i may just take a holiday and pehaps return to australia or whatever. he told me 'donna, always remember that you did not do anything wrong here. the hotel did the wrong thing and if you want to remain in phuket you can do so knowing that you are welcome on the island'. what a lovely man. (i must point out that this was said in the courtroom in front of everyone).

so, for anybody who has issues with an employer, i encourage you to stand your ground. seek out a good lawyer and do not be intimidated at all. the hotel tried to intimidate me by speaking to me like i was a piece of s*&t in the court room, but i did not lose heart. i stood by what i knew was right and by the fact that i did not do anything wrong.

i may be a non thai, but the law protected me as it would a thai person and i am thankful for that. for all of you who think that there is no justice for us westerners in this country, im happy to tell you that you are wrong.

Congratulations Donna !

Apart from the 3 months salary compensation I think it's a great moral victory together with the kind & supporting words from the Judge.

It also shows that style, class and dignity, especially in the courtroom, paid off.

It's good to hear that there are great and wise men and women in the jurisdictional system in Thailand.

My Compliments !

LaoPo

[donna]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

whilst i see your point dog412, i am not aware of any law being in place which says that in the case of an unfair dismissal the employee will be put back in to their old position. this could be a spinoff from the 'thai way' as i do not believe that a thai would actually accept their job back under these circumstances. if thats the case, why have the rule?

i am speculating here, but dont think that im too far off.

[donna]

the gm of the hotel sat there with her hands firmly in her lap with her lips pursed and said 'mai aow' when i extended my hand to her.

I can also concur from working in BKK 11 years now, that for some Thai women in higher positions, when the time comes to show their true colors, they prove to have the maturity level of a 7 year old child not getting the latest toy for Xmas.

I would have thought by not taking your hand after a court ruling, there in front of all was a big face loss to her not you Donna.

Great news on your win.

yes. she lost face big time on that.

[singa-traz]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

whilst i see your point dog412, i am not aware of any law being in place which says that in the case of an unfair dismissal the employee will be put back in to their old position. this could be a spinoff from the 'thai way' as i do not believe that a thai would actually accept their job back under these circumstances. if thats the case, why have the rule?

i am speculating here, but dont think that im too far off.

http://www.thailabour.org/law/thai/code.html

You should have got 3 months + 1 month (30 days notice).

Why did you gave up one month of your salary?

[donna]

i did bring this point up with the judge and he explained the reason but i cant remember what it was now. i know what my rights are/were and i accepted the judges decision. i wanted to get this finalised yesterday as its been 6 months now and i did not want the stress of going to a higher court which would have cost me more anyway.

the victory is more moral and the 1 month salary would have been much better in my pocket, i am happy with the judges decision and have graciously accepted what has been awarded to me.

[brahmburgers]

While it is a great news, may I ask simple question :

What for **** hel_l are we so cheerful ? That we know that this country has a law system ? Dah ? XXI century, digital age - and the REALLY OBVIOUS CASE of DONNA is not a 8th Wonder. Surely she should win, just take a point and as she says "stuck to my guns" (kinda wierd for a woman, though).

Good for you, truly congratulations and sorry it took so long. I've been in the same sh*t, feels bad.

PS> btw, 24% up - marketing ?

I presume that she is happy and cheerful because of the Positive verdict in HER favour. To my knowledge, the Courts here in Thailand are not particularily well-known for siding on the side of the Foreigner ....

I stand to be corrected......if misunderstood.

This "Thais always win" thing seems to be an urban myth to me and Donna's case goes to prove that. Great result Donna and it's great that the Judge felt he should mention those comments.

Congrats Donna, and well done on your perserverence! Frankly I'm surprised, and sorry to say I'm still a cynic when it comes to the old saw; 'Thais hate to give the advantage to foreigners if there's a dispute between a farang and a Thai - especially a Thai of any means.' A key factor in Donna's case was the fair-minded judge. I believe that in a different venue from Phuket (one that's not wholly dependent and innundated with tourists) the outcome would have favored the Thai. I acknowledge that's not the popular sentiment of this thread, but so be it.

[Maestro]

Congratulations, Donna.

not sure if i should name [the hotel] on this forum...

If your case made the local news and the hotel is named in the news article, feel free to quote from the newspaper, abbreviating your name to initials, if you wish, and quoting the source. No risk of a defamation suit this way.

--

Maestro

[TEFLMike]

well, some of you may have followed my story which started six months ago when i was dismissed from my place of employment for no reason other than 'the head office doesnt want a farang doing this job'.

a very brief rundown of what has happened to me in the past six months is as follows:

i started work for a hotel in phuket on june 15, 2006. i did a great job, increased room revenue by 24% for the first five months of 2007, did things over and above my job description and was liked by my fellow employees and hotel guests. in fact, many hotel guests have become friends of mine now.

on june 13 this year, at close of business, i was told that i was no longer needed, give back the car keys and dont come in tomorrow. of course i was devastated and didnt really know what to do next. i consulted people from this forum who persuaded me to take this matter to court as there were laws to protect me against this kind of treatment.

i went to court for the first time where the hotel GM did not turn up, so the case was adjourned. my lawyer in bkk also stood me up so i was left floundering with no representation at the last minute which made me feel like an idiot but luckily the case was adjourned at the hotels instigation.

i then found a local lawyer here in phuket and went to court again on november 8 where the hotels team picked up on a minor thing in the original submission by the lawyer in saw in bkk and made a big deal out of it. they said that the bkk lawyer had stated that my contract did not have an end date, where in actual fact it did. this stupid error on his part made it seem impossible for me to win the case.

on that day, the hotel offered me 10,000thb to settle on the day and end the story. of course i did not agree to this, as i know by the law that i was entitled to a lot more than this and the 10,000thb did not even cover my legal fees.

at the end of that second hearing, i was feeling very 'woe is me' at the end as the judge and the lawyer for the hotel were very nasty and threatening in the way they spoke to me and my lawyer. but i stuck to my guns and would not withdraw the case, knowing that i should be able to win.

as we were sitting outside, a gentleman approached us and told us that there should be no problem with me winning this case. the reason is that the work i was doing was not a special project and was part of the every day running of the hotel business. he told me that i should win the case when i next went back, which was december 4, today. i later found out that this man was a judge (who was not working on my case, but who did say that everyone in the labour court knew of my case).

so, today we went back and i had the hotels old HR manager on my team, as well as their old financial controller, for moral support. after an initial debate about the way my contract was translated differently by each team, the judges went out the back for a coffee and discussion. then they came out all guns blazing saying that the hotel was clearly wrong in this case and that i had every right to sue them and win. the hotel cannot just fire me for no reason and that they should pay me 3 months salary as compensation.

as i had only been there for a year, the judge would not award damages, nor would he award me 30 days in lieu of notice, but i was very happy to just win the case and know that i was not living in a fantasy world thinking that i could sue a thai business and win. of course, i had the option of taking it higher if i wanted to, but this would have taken around a year to process and the legal fees would have been higher than the payout (i suspect), so i was more than happy to accept what they offered me today.

the judge told us to shake hands, and the gm of the hotel sat there with her hands firmly in her lap with her lips pursed and said 'mai aow' when i extended my hand to her. a member of her team then offered me his hand to shake and i accepted this. i also told the gm that i did not have any problem with her at all (she was not there when i was employed by the hotel). the gm ignored me and i feel that she did not do herself any favours in doing this.

the judge then asked me what i was planning to do now and i told him that i may just take a holiday and pehaps return to australia or whatever. he told me 'donna, always remember that you did not do anything wrong here. the hotel did the wrong thing and if you want to remain in phuket you can do so knowing that you are welcome on the island'. what a lovely man. (i must point out that this was said in the courtroom in front of everyone).

so, for anybody who has issues with an employer, i encourage you to stand your ground. seek out a good lawyer and do not be intimidated at all. the hotel tried to intimidate me by speaking to me like i was a piece of s*&t in the court room, but i did not lose heart. i stood by what i knew was right and by the fact that i did not do anything wrong.

i may be a non thai, but the law protected me as it would a thai person and i am thankful for that. for all of you who think that there is no justice for us westerners in this country, im happy to tell you that you are wrong.

WELL DONE DONNA!

[bendix]

It is so typically Thai Visa that on a thread in which Donna demonstrates in practice what I have been preaching for ages (that all employees - farang or thai - have very very good rights to severance pay to protect them from just about any kind of dismissal, even the end of a contract) that people are still negative and come out with 'well, she should have got more.'

I think Donna's example is excellent.

It shows that we do have rights as employees, regardless of race. It shows that most employers either don't know that or assume employees don't know it. And it shows that when tested, the courts do come through.

Please guys - get some balance and take some lesson's from donna's example.

Incidentally, I'm currently mentoring a young Thai law student here in Bkk. She is working on a thesis expressly about the subject of how so few Thai people know their legal rights, instead bowing to the traditional subservience to hierarchy. It's fascinating reading. Her goal is to work to improve people's understanding of both their rights and obligations.

[donna]

so true bendix. sure, i would have loved more, but i was not out to screw the hotel. i was only wanting what was legally owed to me and i am happy with the result. it is a moral victory more than one that made me rich. i have the satisfaction of knowing that i did the right thing by pursuing the matter and that the hotel learnt (hopefully) that they cannot do this to people.

i agree that many thai people do not know their rights. many friends of mine have no idea about what their entitlements are and this is a shame. i guess its not in the employers interests to keep the staff in the know about such things. then again, im not sure that too many are actually interested in what their entitlements are either (i may be wrong here).

thanks for the lovely comments everyone. i hope that my story helps some of you who may face this same situation in the future.

[ade100]

Congratulations!

A very encouraging story. Just one question: I presume the court hearing would have been conducted in Thai so anyone in this situation not fluent in Thai would have some additional challenges.

[donna]

yes. thats true. my Thai is ok, but the level that is used in a court room is something that i guess i never planned for so never studied.

my lawyer speaks no english at all but i am lucky that she is a friend of a friend of mine who DOES speak english. i also took another friend fluent in english with me just to be sure.

the actual arguments were difficult for me to follow, but i had the whisper from behind informing me of what was going on.

the courts here do not supply translators, so you do need to find your own.

i also had my employment contract translated into thai but there were mistakes made that could have cost me the case. it pays to have someone else read the contract in english and thai and compare them. i thought that a translator would have been able to do this, but i was mistaken. the hotels translator also got the contract wrong, so a certified translator still needs to be checked, unfortunately.

[thaigene2]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

Yes knowing the TIT thing too..I don't blame your skepticism. However, Donna's experience seems to cnfirm what I've heard from other 'farangs' when going toe-to-toe with their Thai boss in the Thai Labour Court. It does seem to work quite often in favour of the wronged-employee (though I'm sure not always - like anywhere else).

Now the next big question is how often it works in favour of a migrant worker from Burma or Cambodia etc.. if they've been ripped off? Not so sure of that answer..But I think things may be changing slowly there too..for the better hopefully. I don't doubt the Thai goodheartedness - and as I said I'm glad to see some justice emerging - even if it's for farangs to start with..

[LaoPo]

yes. thats true. my Thai is ok, but the level that is used in a court room is something that i guess i never planned for so never studied.

my lawyer speaks no english at all but i am lucky that she is a friend of a friend of mine who DOES speak english. i also took another friend fluent in english with me just to be sure.

the actual arguments were difficult for me to follow, but i had the whisper from behind informing me of what was going on.

the courts here do not supply translators, so you do need to find your own.

i also had my employment contract translated into thai but there were mistakes made that could have cost me the case. it pays to have someone else read the contract in english and thai and compare them. i thought that a translator would have been able to do this, but i was mistaken. the hotels translator also got the contract wrong, so a certified translator still needs to be checked, unfortunately.

For an important document ALWAYS use a certified translator, no matter the language. It's more costly but in the end (in case of problems) it always pays off.

LaoPo

[donna]

the translator WAS certified LaoPo. but they still got it wrong.

[NewGuy]

Congratulations Donna.

[dog412]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

Yes knowing the TIT thing too..I don't blame your skepticism. However, Donna's experience seems to cnfirm what I've heard from other 'farangs' when going toe-to-toe with their Thai boss in the Thai Labour Court. It does seem to work quite often in favour of the wronged-employee (though I'm sure not always - like anywhere else).

Now the next big question is how often it works in favour of a migrant worker from Burma or Cambodia etc.. if they've been ripped off? Not so sure of that answer..But I think things may be changing slowly there too..for the better hopefully. I don't doubt the Thai goodheartedness - and as I said I'm glad to see some justice emerging - even if it's for farangs to start with..

i do understand what you're saying. however, break it down. how many farangs would have hired a attorney,and, been able to wait out the six month period to adjudicate? how many Thai employees could have even afforded to retain a attorney's services? how many Burmese & Cambodia "workers" even know what a attorney is?

[LaoPo]

the translator WAS certified LaoPo. but they still got it wrong.

I misread your last sentence....Mea Culpa.

That's a shame for a certified translator I would say....

LaoPo

[mcfester]

What a heart warming story, well done, your a brave lady, I only wish you'd got the compensation you deserved.

(I only read the first post so sorry if this is not on que)

[onethailand]

Don't know how I missed this... may be my habit of only watching certain forums...

CONGRATULATIONS - well done I'm sure you're glad that nightmare is over... justice has been served.

If you wouldn't mind PMing me the name of that hotel, I'd greatly appreciate it

[Lucifer]

The case is over. You can name the hotel.

[Tinkelbell]

donna,

You're an aspiring for all working people. You have shown them the way to stand up and fight for your rights.

Hope you have an exciting career coming your way very soon.

[donna]

What a heart warming story, well done, your a brave lady, I only wish you'd got the compensation you deserved.

(I only read the first post so sorry if this is not on que)

i got enough compensation, even if it was not quite what i was expecting. i am very happy with the amount i got, for sure, and have no complaints about it whatsoever. the satisfaction of knowing that i am right and they are wrong is worth far more than the monetary value that a court of law puts on it to me.

believe me, a moral victory is a very sweet victory indeed.

[CTM]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

Yes knowing the TIT thing too..I don't blame your skepticism. However, Donna's experience seems to cnfirm what I've heard from other 'farangs' when going toe-to-toe with their Thai boss in the Thai Labour Court. It does seem to work quite often in favour of the wronged-employee (though I'm sure not always - like anywhere else).

Now the next big question is how often it works in favour of a migrant worker from Burma or Cambodia etc.. if they've been ripped off? Not so sure of that answer..But I think things may be changing slowly there too..for the better hopefully. I don't doubt the Thai goodheartedness - and as I said I'm glad to see some justice emerging - even if it's for farangs to start with..

i do understand what you're saying. however, break it down. how many farangs would have hired a attorney,and, been able to wait out the six month period to adjudicate? how many Thai employees could have even afforded to retain a attorney's services? how many Burmese & Cambodia "workers" even know what a attorney is?

Clearly dog412, you have never run a business and have very little understanding of the real world. Career government worker? Still a student?

Reinstatement. LMAO

3 months severance pay after only a year of employment is far better than most countries. In the USA, she would have gotten zero with no grounds to sue for anything in most states.

Court case settled in about 6 months. Slow? Are you joking? Try 3 to 5 years in the USA and the company probably still won’t pay and it will take a few more years to see any actual money. I’ve gone to arbitration and had it take that long when both sides were looking to settle and move on with their lives.

[dog412]

while i say "well done" to Donna, i really do find it hard to believe that the majority of posters believe she won anything other than a token victory, and by token i mean "less than entitled to". it seems that most of us feel that Donna has done something that the majority of farangs wold not have done, fight through the legal system for her "rights", to show she was LEGALLY right. she won the verdict of the judges. however, if all it takes to lose a court battle here is 3 months wages, whats the point? without the courts mandate of reinstatement of employment the verdict was completely in favor of the employer, in my opinion.

Yes knowing the TIT thing too..I don't blame your skepticism. However, Donna's experience seems to cnfirm what I've heard from other 'farangs' when going toe-to-toe with their Thai boss in the Thai Labour Court. It does seem to work quite often in favour of the wronged-employee (though I'm sure not always - like anywhere else).

Now the next big question is how often it works in favour of a migrant worker from Burma or Cambodia etc.. if they've been ripped off? Not so sure of that answer..But I think things may be changing slowly there too..for the better hopefully. I don't doubt the Thai goodheartedness - and as I said I'm glad to see some justice emerging - even if it's for farangs to start with..

i do understand what you're saying. however, break it down. how many farangs would have hired a attorney,and, been able to wait out the six month period to adjudicate? how many Thai employees could have even afforded to retain a attorney's services? how many Burmese & Cambodia "workers" even know what a attorney is?

Clearly dog412, you have never run a business and have very little understanding of the real world. Career government worker? Still a student?

Reinstatement. LMAO

3 months severance pay after only a year of employment is far better than most countries. In the USA, she would have gotten zero with no grounds to sue for anything in most states.

Court case settled in about 6 months. Slow? Are you joking? Try 3 to 5 years in the USA and the company probably still won’t pay and it will take a few more years to see any actual money. I’ve gone to arbitration and had it take that long when both sides were looking to settle and move on with their lives.

union member, live in real world also. 3 month's severance pay is not bad, BUT, a attorney had to be payed for, and it was not severance that was awarded, but "unfair dismissal", or was it? she did have about 363 days employment.