I Took My Old Employer To Court

[Badbanker]

My experience with a number of farang people suing Thai employers in Bangkok has been very positive!.

The Thai labour courts are very much on the side of the person being fired. I know of several expats that had their high dollar expat expat contract torn up and told to get out of Dodge now. They prepared a good case and documented everything, went to court with a lawyer and won! One of these cases involved a Thai Public Company and ended up with president of the company being called in as a witness. The Judge was pointing his FINGER at the president and telling him he was a thief and he needs to pay up!  Got over USD 100 k compensation for the remainder of the contract!

The other one was a teacher friend of mine that was on contract and had been fired with no real reason. He sued and got compensated for money due!  He had no work permit!

If you do get fired in Bangkok go to the Labour courts, even if you don't have a work permit and most times you will be sucessful.

Badbanker

Edited December 9, 2007 by Badbanker

[distortedlink]

WELL DONE

You stood up for your rights and came out a winner.

More than just winning the case, you slade them and they lost face.

I congratulate you and if you visit Chiang Mai, the drinks are on me.

Winners are my favourite people.

Edited December 9, 2007 by distortedlink

[FunkyGuru]

Good news ... finally something that non Thai's will have hope from. Congratulations Donna and thanks for sharing this with the rest of us. Thanks for showing us that there is still hope.

Cheers and thanks for being an inspiration to others here.

[Lifelover]

Congratulations Donna. A heartwarming story. Unfair employers (in any country) deserve to be exposed, at the very least, but it takes guts on the part of the employee to see it through. You've sure got guts Donna.

Can you please name the hotel on the forum for all to see? If you are still uncomfortable with that, please PM me.

Thanks.

[donna]

as i am yet to receive the payment from the hotel, i am reluctant to name them openly at this stage. i would like to wait until they pay me before naming them.

[puyaidon]

I am guessing that this must be the labor court where you won. I know of three cases, just in my work of employment which is university education where the teacher won due to the lack of labor law knowledge of the employer. Two got up to one hundred thousand baht for their cases. I know another friend who received 10 months pay from the outcome of the case to the tune of over one million baht. A lot of the employers think they can get away with whatever they want but in the end, they get caught. To get fired or not renewed employment, you just about have to be guilty of a felony or some type of criminal activity in the company. Fired for no cause is a good case for the labor courts and farangs do win but we don't hear about them too much. Congrats to you for taking them on.

[BelfastMike]

Well Done Donna a terrific moral victory and proof to all the nay-sayers that Farrangs can receive fair treatment from the upper echelons of Thai society.

I found Blizzard's comment very interesting...

Incidentally, I'm currently mentoring a young Thai law student here in Bkk. She is working on a thesis expressly about the subject of how so few Thai people know their legal rights, instead bowing to the traditional subservience to hierarchy. It's fascinating reading. Her goal is to work to improve people's understanding of both their rights and obligations.

In the West we have the press and TV to thank for the fact that people know their rights (often too well). Drama and soap TV programmes often depict the underdog taking on "the man" and winning. This is definitely a good thing, employers know they cannot get away with treating their staff badly. However, it has gone too far in the US and recently in the UK leading to an extremely litigious society with "No win No Fee" lawyers encouraging employees to take their employers to the cleaners for "accidents" which are often staged or down to their own stupidity. It's common where I come from for certain sections of the community to use this as their livelyhood. Staging car accidents and living off the insurance money. Where there's blame, there's a claim. Hence all the daft common sense signs that spring up in the workplace. Like the toilet brush I saw recently with "do not use for personal hygiene" written on it. Not to mention the daft "nanny state" laws western governments are now implementing to cover their butts from litigation.

It's the lack of these daft rules that plays a large part in making us enjoy Thailand so much. However, the attitude of not challenging those in authority never lies well with me. Especially when you know those in authority are not there on merit but rather because of who they know or are related to. I've lost count of the number of times I have had to engineer situations to prove an authority figure wrong whilst saving them face. Thai people should be encouraged to know and fight for their rights but care must be taken that we don't create here the same nightmare we have in the west.

[Chang_paarp]

I would like to add my congratulations to the list.

I am curious how you did on the visa front in the months of waiting for the court case? Did the judges comments help with immigration?

[donna]

visa wise i was ok as i was using my apec business travel card. gives 90 days on entry but thats a separate thread.

[jackr]

Nice one

Although I'm sure you wouldn't want to stoop to her level, but when you send that email to the general manager are you tempted in post scripting a "som nam na" in there?

[donna]

haha. is the king a buddhist? of COURSE im tempted! i would be a liar if i said i wasnt thinking about it. i will refrain, however, although the thought is VERY tempting.

[chocolate starfish]

I have a similar problem. A publishing company based in Bangkok and Phuket have used my work for there publication but have decided that I shouldnt be paid. Even though they are a going concern. Would you be so kind as to give me a contact for you lawyer that I belive you are happy with.

[donna]

i have just sent you a PM choc.

[Rdrokit]

Congratulations Donna, job well done!

Best wishes in any new pursuits,

rokit

[Claymore]

well, some of you may have followed my story which started six months ago when i was dismissed from my place of employment for no reason other than 'the head office doesnt want a farang doing this job'.

a very brief rundown of what has happened to me in the past six months is as follows:

i started work for a hotel in phuket on june 15, 2006. i did a great job, increased room revenue by 24% for the first five months of 2007, did things over and above my job description and was liked by my fellow employees and hotel guests. in fact, many hotel guests have become friends of mine now.

on june 13 this year, at close of business, i was told that i was no longer needed, give back the car keys and dont come in tomorrow. of course i was devastated and didnt really know what to do next. i consulted people from this forum who persuaded me to take this matter to court as there were laws to protect me against this kind of treatment.

i went to court for the first time where the hotel GM did not turn up, so the case was adjourned. my lawyer in bkk also stood me up so i was left floundering with no representation at the last minute which made me feel like an idiot but luckily the case was adjourned at the hotels instigation.

i then found a local lawyer here in phuket and went to court again on november 8 where the hotels team picked up on a minor thing in the original submission by the lawyer in saw in bkk and made a big deal out of it. they said that the bkk lawyer had stated that my contract did not have an end date, where in actual fact it did. this stupid error on his part made it seem impossible for me to win the case.

on that day, the hotel offered me 10,000thb to settle on the day and end the story. of course i did not agree to this, as i know by the law that i was entitled to a lot more than this and the 10,000thb did not even cover my legal fees.

at the end of that second hearing, i was feeling very 'woe is me' at the end as the judge and the lawyer for the hotel were very nasty and threatening in the way they spoke to me and my lawyer. but i stuck to my guns and would not withdraw the case, knowing that i should be able to win.

as we were sitting outside, a gentleman approached us and told us that there should be no problem with me winning this case. the reason is that the work i was doing was not a special project and was part of the every day running of the hotel business. he told me that i should win the case when i next went back, which was december 4, today. i later found out that this man was a judge (who was not working on my case, but who did say that everyone in the labour court knew of my case).

so, today we went back and i had the hotels old HR manager on my team, as well as their old financial controller, for moral support. after an initial debate about the way my contract was translated differently by each team, the judges went out the back for a coffee and discussion. then they came out all guns blazing saying that the hotel was clearly wrong in this case and that i had every right to sue them and win. the hotel cannot just fire me for no reason and that they should pay me 3 months salary as compensation.

as i had only been there for a year, the judge would not award damages, nor would he award me 30 days in lieu of notice, but i was very happy to just win the case and know that i was not living in a fantasy world thinking that i could sue a thai business and win. of course, i had the option of taking it higher if i wanted to, but this would have taken around a year to process and the legal fees would have been higher than the payout (i suspect), so i was more than happy to accept what they offered me today.

the judge told us to shake hands, and the gm of the hotel sat there with her hands firmly in her lap with her lips pursed and said 'mai aow' when i extended my hand to her. a member of her team then offered me his hand to shake and i accepted this. i also told the gm that i did not have any problem with her at all (she was not there when i was employed by the hotel). the gm ignored me and i feel that she did not do herself any favours in doing this.

the judge then asked me what i was planning to do now and i told him that i may just take a holiday and pehaps return to australia or whatever. he told me 'donna, always remember that you did not do anything wrong here. the hotel did the wrong thing and if you want to remain in phuket you can do so knowing that you are welcome on the island'. what a lovely man. (i must point out that this was said in the courtroom in front of everyone).

so, for anybody who has issues with an employer, i encourage you to stand your ground. seek out a good lawyer and do not be intimidated at all. the hotel tried to intimidate me by speaking to me like i was a piece of s*&t in the court room, but i did not lose heart. i stood by what i knew was right and by the fact that i did not do anything wrong.

i may be a non thai, but the law protected me as it would a thai person and i am thankful for that. for all of you who think that there is no justice for us westerners in this country, im happy to tell you that you are wrong.

Well done Donna. But for the benefit of this forum I can say Thai labour law is actually quite strong, provided you are not intimidated.

Thai justice is reallt quite a different thing.

[DMasut]

Congratulations Donna!

The reason most people fail to win in cases of injustice like this are as follows:

1. They only complain and do nothing, and Thais are no different than Americans hiring Mexicans, or Brits hiring Indian or West Indies staff who don't know the laws. They know the laws of diminishing return and attrition are on the Thai (or country citizen) side because most foreigners do not know the law or are afraid of retribution in their host country.

2. They try to apply the laws of their country to Thai law, which is like trying to make an apply into an orange. Most foreigners forget the concept of cultural sensitivity in trying to understand the culture and laws of their host country. Though there is definitely a political component within the Thai legal system, as there is in Britain, Australian, Japan, USA, etc., in most cases the politics stop when the case goes before the judge in a Thai court.

Lawyers in every country lie, cheat and play outside of the law until it goes to trial... and there are some bad judges in Thailand as in other countries. However to a large part Thai judges are true to the law not just because it is right, but because most feel they report to a higher order of the King.

Anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes in Thailand knows the love and reverence people (not just Thais) have for this man. In fact, I believe it is the Royal Palace that appoints judges not the people. So to disobey the law is to disobey and disrespect the King, as is stepping on money, speaking poorly of the Royal family, defacing images or statues of the King and Royal family.

Thai judges I have met all have a sense of serving a higher order to serve justice. But most farang never trust the court to get as far enough to find out.

They fear the lies from the lawyers and others involved will only be a continuation through to trial. They fear they will be digging a bigger hole both financially and legally because of veiled threats the opposing legal teams make and your weak lawyers failure to launch or visually oppose the other side.

Culture note: In Thai courts both plaintiff and defendant's lawyers must apologize to the court/ judge for bringing problems before the court. Unlike American and British courts that (mostly through the sensation of TV dramas) appear to be fighting a battle when in fact 90% of cases are decided when the lawyer meet for a beer or coffee outside of the court room (seemingly unethical but a fact of life).

The Legal game in the west is mostly one of legal technicality and a good poker face vs. Thailand's judges looking for what is good for Thailand. Serving justice against bad Thais doing bad things against farang is not good for Thailand.

BOTTOM LINE: Whenever involved in litigation in ANY country, do not rely solely on the advice of your lawyer, learn the laws at hand well enough to "INSTRUCT" your lawyer to take action. If you know the law and your lawyer fails to act, you know you have a bad one and must change.

3. They get tired from the time it takes to go to trial and get a ruling. Though like every court in the world there are too few judges for too many cases. However, a big mistake is when you allow YOUR lawyer too many postponements and re-scheduling that conflict with his/her other cases, he needs more time to prepare. Finding a good lawyer is difficult anywhere. In Thailand its better to look for honest over tough. A lawyer that tries to put you at ease too quickly by building your confidence and making you feel your case is an easy winner will more likely drain your pocket book with substandard results. Unfortunately, most lawyers that seek out farang business fit this profile.

ADVICE: When you need a good lawyers, go down to the courts and spend a day (or two) speaking to the Thai people, police, court workers and people waiting in the hallway for their cases who they think is the best lawyer. If you cannot speak Thai bring a Thai speaker with you. speak to 20-30 people and when the same name comes up 10-20 times ... you may have a good lawyer lead.

Caution: Avoid the "LAWYER TOUTS" that do exist at the courts. They are commission hounds just like the "hotel touts", "tour touts" etc. If they approach you avoid them. The best lawyers are already too busy and don't need sales people.

Sounds like too much work? Then your case must not be that important and you should just walk away and forget about it lick your wounds and get on with life.

As the Lord Buddha said "be carefully aware in this life". Good Luck!!!

Edited December 9, 2007 by DMasut

[markokang]

Donna,

When you feel comfortable, please tell everyone the name of the hotel and your lawyer.

We would all love to know:)

[hgma]

Just to make sure i was reading the right stuff, i changed glasses to a wider proportion.

second time i read it it was still treu.

I there still hope? it seems to be!

note

dont post this in postbag or the nation, they might....no for sure.... change the law to make this good news impossible for us farangs

my comment?

Hat off...good job!

hgma

well, some of you may have followed my story which started six months ago when i was dismissed from my place of employment for no reason other than 'the head office doesnt want a farang doing this job'.

a very brief rundown of what has happened to me in the past six months is as follows:

i started work for a hotel in phuket on june 15, 2006. i did a great job, increased room revenue by 24% for the first five months of 2007, did things over and above my job description and was liked by my fellow employees and hotel guests. in fact, many hotel guests have become friends of mine now.

on june 13 this year, at close of business, i was told that i was no longer needed, give back the car keys and dont come in tomorrow. of course i was devastated and didnt really know what to do next. i consulted people from this forum who persuaded me to take this matter to court as there were laws to protect me against this kind of treatment.

i went to court for the first time where the hotel GM did not turn up, so the case was adjourned. my lawyer in bkk also stood me up so i was left floundering with no representation at the last minute which made me feel like an idiot but luckily the case was adjourned at the hotels instigation.

i then found a local lawyer here in phuket and went to court again on november 8 where the hotels team picked up on a minor thing in the original submission by the lawyer in saw in bkk and made a big deal out of it. they said that the bkk lawyer had stated that my contract did not have an end date, where in actual fact it did. this stupid error on his part made it seem impossible for me to win the case.

on that day, the hotel offered me 10,000thb to settle on the day and end the story. of course i did not agree to this, as i know by the law that i was entitled to a lot more than this and the 10,000thb did not even cover my legal fees.

at the end of that second hearing, i was feeling very 'woe is me' at the end as the judge and the lawyer for the hotel were very nasty and threatening in the way they spoke to me and my lawyer. but i stuck to my guns and would not withdraw the case, knowing that i should be able to win.

as we were sitting outside, a gentleman approached us and told us that there should be no problem with me winning this case. the reason is that the work i was doing was not a special project and was part of the every day running of the hotel business. he told me that i should win the case when i next went back, which was december 4, today. i later found out that this man was a judge (who was not working on my case, but who did say that everyone in the labour court knew of my case).

so, today we went back and i had the hotels old HR manager on my team, as well as their old financial controller, for moral support. after an initial debate about the way my contract was translated differently by each team, the judges went out the back for a coffee and discussion. then they came out all guns blazing saying that the hotel was clearly wrong in this case and that i had every right to sue them and win. the hotel cannot just fire me for no reason and that they should pay me 3 months salary as compensation.

as i had only been there for a year, the judge would not award damages, nor would he award me 30 days in lieu of notice, but i was very happy to just win the case and know that i was not living in a fantasy world thinking that i could sue a thai business and win. of course, i had the option of taking it higher if i wanted to, but this would have taken around a year to process and the legal fees would have been higher than the payout (i suspect), so i was more than happy to accept what they offered me today.

the judge told us to shake hands, and the gm of the hotel sat there with her hands firmly in her lap with her lips pursed and said 'mai aow' when i extended my hand to her. a member of her team then offered me his hand to shake and i accepted this. i also told the gm that i did not have any problem with her at all (she was not there when i was employed by the hotel). the gm ignored me and i feel that she did not do herself any favours in doing this.

the judge then asked me what i was planning to do now and i told him that i may just take a holiday and pehaps return to australia or whatever. he told me 'donna, always remember that you did not do anything wrong here. the hotel did the wrong thing and if you want to remain in phuket you can do so knowing that you are welcome on the island'. what a lovely man. (i must point out that this was said in the courtroom in front of everyone).

so, for anybody who has issues with an employer, i encourage you to stand your ground. seek out a good lawyer and do not be intimidated at all. the hotel tried to intimidate me by speaking to me like i was a piece of s*&t in the court room, but i did not lose heart. i stood by what i knew was right and by the fact that i did not do anything wrong.

i may be a non thai, but the law protected me as it would a thai person and i am thankful for that. for all of you who think that there is no justice for us westerners in this country, im happy to tell you that you are wrong.

[donna]

luckily for all of us, thais included, thai labor law covers you no matter what nationality.

you just have to be aware of what your rights are and have the guts to exercise those rights.

[donna]

well, the story has a happy ending. i received my cheque yesterday (but not the WP10 as promised) and cleared it immediately.

this time, i extended my hand for the GM to shake, and she did give me a wet fish handshake (turning her head in the opposite direction at the same time - but at least she did it this time).

now, for those of you wanting to know which hotel it was........unfortunately i am not allowed to disclose this in public. i have signed an agreement stating that i will not disclose the hotel nor do anything to cause them damage, so, as mentioned earlier, i am more than happy to let you know by PM.

its shopping time for me - new laptop me thinks!

[jackr]

well, the story has a happy ending. i received my cheque yesterday (but not the WP10 as promised) and cleared it immediately.

this time, i extended my hand for the GM to shake, and she did give me a wet fish handshake (turning her head in the opposite direction at the same time - but at least she did it this time).

now, for those of you wanting to know which hotel it was........unfortunately i am not allowed to disclose this in public. i have signed an agreement stating that i will not disclose the hotel nor do anything to cause them damage, so, as mentioned earlier, i am more than happy to let you know by PM.

its shopping time for me - new laptop me thinks!

You should have given her an Ippon Seoinage... one of these:

followed by one of these:

[donna]

haha. thats what was going through my head!

the lawyer is on to the WP10 bit as the GM has not yet supplied this, and is therefore in breach of the court order.

fun and games for all.

[dog412]

haha. thats what was going through my head!

the lawyer is on to the WP10 bit as the GM has not yet supplied this, and is therefore in breach of the court order.

fun and games for all.

quite interesting that, although you were awarded the verdict, a minimal one in my opinion, you were "sanctioned" by the court to "seal" the facts of the case. stinks to high heaven.

[dog412]

please explain the WP10, and why this was not explained by the attorney during the intial consultation period.

Edited December 21, 2007 by dog412

[donna]

the WP10 is the document that is given by the labor department when you finish work with one employer. usually you need to present this to your next employer before a new work permit can be issued.

(my explanation is quite basic, but thats it as far as i know - feel free to correct me)

the GM handed me my cheque but no WP10. we advised her how to go about getting the WP10 but she has not yet produced it.

to be honest, i dont care about this document at this stage as i am leaving the country in a few weeks, but in the event that i want to come back to work here, i will need the document.

[dog412]

the WP10 is the document that is given by the labor department when you finish work with one employer. usually you need to present this to your next employer before a new work permit can be issued.

(my explanation is quite basic, but thats it as far as i know - feel free to correct me)

the GM handed me my cheque but no WP10. we advised her how to go about getting the WP10 but she has not yet produced it.

to be honest, i dont care about this document at this stage as i am leaving the country in a few weeks, but in the event that i want to come back to work here, i will need the document.

while you may find this document hard to find, i believe it has something to do with the time frame of advance notice to terminate the employment of a employee, "maybe" specifically a "foreign" employee. best of times in Bali.

[donna]

The WP10 document is defined below:

LIST OF NOTIFICATION OF COMMENCEMENT / CEASE OF WORK (WP.10)

Any person who employs an alien or transfers an alien to work in a locality other than that which is specified in the permit, or allows an alien to resign from his work, shall notify the registrar within 15 days from the date of employment, transfer or resignation.

In the case where an alien resigns from the work which is specified in the permit, he shall return the permit to the registrar of changwat where the place of place of work is situated within 7 days from the date of his resignation.

Any person who violates shall be liable to a fine not exceeding 1,000 Baht.

1. LIST OF NOTIFICATION OF COMMENCEMENT / CEASE OF WORK (THE EMPLOYER)

1.1. Application form (WP.10)

1.2. A work permit

1.3. A copy of the Company's Affidavit certified true copy by the employer. (Certificate of Incorporation) issued by the Department of Commercial Registration not longer than 6 months.

1.4. A copy of the ID Card or work permit of the employer

1.5. Power of Attorney (the employer as grantor) affixed with Baht 10 stamp duty.

REMARK : The employer shall notify the commencement or cease of work within 15 days from the date when the alien starts or ceases the work, or, shall submit WP.10 notifying such commencement immediately within 15 days.

2. LIST OF DOCUMENT FOR RETURN OF WORK PERMIT (THE EMPLOYEE)

1. Work Permit

2. Application for return of work permit

3. Power of attorney affexed with baht 10 duty-stame with a copy of desitnee identification card (In case that the aliens can not apply by themselves)

REMARK : After stop working or your work permit is expire must be notify is not over 7 days we will charge fine about 1,000 ฿

the hotel was informed to give me a copy of the WP10 and any other associated documents that i am entitled to. they failed to do this, so they will be approached from the lawyer and, i assume the court, to return these documents.

[dog412]

The WP10 document is defined below:

LIST OF NOTIFICATION OF COMMENCEMENT / CEASE OF WORK (WP.10)

Any person who employs an alien or transfers an alien to work in a locality other than that which is specified in the permit, or allows an alien to resign from his work, shall notify the registrar within 15 days from the date of employment, transfer or resignation.

In the case where an alien resigns from the work which is specified in the permit, he shall return the permit to the registrar of changwat where the place of place of work is situated within 7 days from the date of his resignation.

Any person who violates shall be liable to a fine not exceeding 1,000 Baht.

1. LIST OF NOTIFICATION OF COMMENCEMENT / CEASE OF WORK (THE EMPLOYER)

1.1. Application form (WP.10)

1.2. A work permit

1.3. A copy of the Company's Affidavit certified true copy by the employer. (Certificate of Incorporation) issued by the Department of Commercial Registration not longer than 6 months.

1.4. A copy of the ID Card or work permit of the employer

1.5. Power of Attorney (the employer as grantor) affixed with Baht 10 stamp duty.

REMARK : The employer shall notify the commencement or cease of work within 15 days from the date when the alien starts or ceases the work, or, shall submit WP.10 notifying such commencement immediately within 15 days.

2. LIST OF DOCUMENT FOR RETURN OF WORK PERMIT (THE EMPLOYEE)

1. Work Permit

2. Application for return of work permit

3. Power of attorney affexed with baht 10 duty-stame with a copy of desitnee identification card (In case that the aliens can not apply by themselves)

REMARK : After stop working or your work permit is expire must be notify is not over 7 days we will charge fine about 1,000 ฿

the hotel was informed to give me a copy of the WP10 and any other associated documents that i am entitled to. they failed to do this, so they will be approached from the lawyer and, i assume the court, to return these documents.

sorry to make so much out of this, but, sounds to me that the WP10 was required by the government. therfore, the employer had 15 days to notify the powers that be , and YOU only had 7 days. if i can read it this way so can "others".

[donna]

at the moment the 7 or 15 days in unimportant to me. i was fired over 6 months ago.

all i need is a copy of the document in case i want to get another job here.

[wolfmanjack]

Clearly dog412, you have never run a business and have very little understanding of the real world. Career government worker? Still a student?

Reinstatement. LMAO

3 months severance pay after only a year of employment is far better than most countries. In the USA, she would have gotten zero with no grounds to sue for anything in most states.

Not true. My mother was fired and she sued for wrongful termination. She got her job back with back pay for all the time she was off work. In the USA you have to have a documented reason to fire some one backed up by written warnings unless it was something really bad that you can kind of sorta prove.