Classroom Management (discipline)

[Ijustwannateach]

Pudgi's harmless. The trick is to remember that once you get him on his soapbox, he's not talking about any specific individual anymore, just grandstanding about how "contemptible" everyone else is and how "talented and well informed" he is. Same weird stuff, no matter what the topic is. It's sometimes amazing how much he'll rant in exchange for a simple little comment. I'm just waiting for alcohol and prostitutes.

Seriously, getting back to discipline: I agree with the poster (waaaay up there when we weren't so off-topic) who said that giving demerits and that sort of thing routinely doesn't work- the kids'll compete to be bad, and then hold it against you when they get punished.

I have seen one severely messed-up situation here in Thailand in some private schools (and only in Thailand) where there'll be a really "naughty" class that's learned they can get rid of teachers who make them work. Any attempt to impose discipline or assign homework will lead to them conspiring to get the teacher attempting to instruct them fired- 'cause it always is easier for the school to replace the teacher than replace even one parent. So the kids remain rowdy and lazy little bandits and any teacher who doesn't act like a doormat is thrown out. Since the schools involved tend to be private, they're much more sensitive to the money coming from only one parent than they are to the needs of the kids (some of whom do want to work, but don't have the parents coming in and fighting for them like the others). Anyone have a solution for this kind of tetchy status-related problem, or is it just to find a new school (as everyone I've known in this situation has had to do eventually, voluntarily or otherwise)?

"Steven"

[Pudgimelon]

I have seen one severely messed-up situation here in Thailand in some private schools (and only in Thailand) where there'll be a really "naughty" class that's learned they can get rid of teachers who make them work. Any attempt to impose discipline or assign homework will lead to them conspiring to get the teacher attempting to instruct them fired- 'cause it always is easier for the school to replace the teacher than replace even one parent. So the kids remain rowdy and lazy little bandits and any teacher who doesn't act like a doormat is thrown out. Since the schools involved tend to be private, they're much more sensitive to the money coming from only one parent than they are to the needs of the kids (some of whom do want to work, but don't have the parents coming in and fighting for them like the others). Anyone have a solution for this kind of tetchy status-related problem, or is it just to find a new school (as everyone I've known in this situation has had to do eventually, voluntarily or otherwise)?

"Steven"

The solution to that problem is simple, but probably difficult to implement without the aid of parents and school.

First, the teacher should talk with the parents of the "naughty" children. Of course, this requires some DIPLOMATIC skills. You can't just walk up to the CEO of some company and tell him his kid is a spoiled brat, nor can you walk up to some street vendor and tell him that his kid is a menace. The results of that conversation will be counterproductive.

What I find helpful is a bit of honey to make the medicine more palatable. For example, I'll say, "Your kid is very popular in class and a natural leader, I just wish we could encourage him to set a better example for the other children."

This puts the parent on YOUR side, and makes your suggestions easier for them to accept.

The school should also support the teacher by constant and regular supervision and evaluation. Most teachers fear this notion, but in actuality, it PROTECTS teachers from arbitrary firing, because if a teacher has good performance reviews, the school can go to the complaining parent and say, "Look, we've been watching this teacher, he's doing a good job, so maybe we should talk about your child's behavior in class."

It gives the school and the teacher some PROOF to back up their claims that they are trying to teach that child.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

VIDEO TAPE.

Man, watch what happens when you pull this one on the kids. Set up a camera at the front of the class, and then tell the kids that problem students will have their parents called in for a teacher/parent conference in which the tape will be reviewed and the child's behavior will be SHOWN to the parents.

I call it: Insta-Angels.

[Ajarn]

I have seen one severely messed-up situation here in Thailand in some private schools (and only in Thailand) where there'll be a really "naughty" class that's learned they can get rid of teachers who make them work.  Any attempt to impose discipline or assign homework will lead to them conspiring to get the teacher attempting to instruct them fired- 'cause it always is easier for the school to replace the teacher than replace even one parent.  So the kids remain rowdy and lazy little bandits and any teacher who doesn't act like a doormat is thrown out.  Since the schools involved tend to be private, they're much more sensitive to the money coming from only one parent than they are to the needs of the kids (some of whom do want to work, but don't have the parents coming in and fighting for them like the others).  Anyone have a solution for this kind of tetchy status-related problem, or is it just to find a new school (as everyone I've known in this situation has had to do eventually, voluntarily or otherwise)?

"Steven"

The solution to that problem is simple, but probably difficult to implement without the aid of parents and school.

First, the teacher should talk with the parents of the "naughty" children. Of course, this requires some DIPLOMATIC skills. You can't just walk up to the CEO of some company and tell him his kid is a spoiled brat, nor can you walk up to some street vendor and tell him that his kid is a menace. The results of that conversation will be counterproductive.

What I find helpful is a bit of honey to make the medicine more palatable. For example, I'll say, "Your kid is very popular in class and a natural leader, I just wish we could encourage him to set a better example for the other children."

This puts the parent on YOUR side, and makes your suggestions easier for them to accept.

The school should also support the teacher by constant and regular supervision and evaluation. Most teachers fear this notion, but in actuality, it PROTECTS teachers from arbitrary firing, because if a teacher has good performance reviews, the school can go to the complaining parent and say, "Look, we've been watching this teacher, he's doing a good job, so maybe we should talk about your child's behavior in class."

It gives the school and the teacher some PROOF to back up their claims that they are trying to teach that child.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

VIDEO TAPE.

Man, watch what happens when you pull this one on the kids. Set up a camera at the front of the class, and then tell the kids that problem students will have their parents called in for a teacher/parent conference in which the tape will be reviewed and the child's behavior will be SHOWN to the parents.

I call it: Insta-Angels.

I completely agree on every point. It's exactly what I'd do.

However, I would not encourage a farang teacher to bypass their Admin if they want to talk to parents, since this could really come back haunt you. I feel a farang should always meet with a parent only with admin knowledge and support- and as witness. Very important, this last point, in my experience..

Another very good point you mentioned that I like is deal with more like you are 'for' something, in this case, using his strengths in a more positive way.... As you said, it makes it easier for them to swallow, and it takes the teacher out of the bad guy role, with the parent, anyway

Video is very valuable. And not just for evidence of student problems, but for evidence of teaching problems, too. Video can be very valuable to help the teacher learn more effective classroom management skills, in my experience. I've videotaped literally hundreds of teachers, and, as you mentioned, teachers are very nervous about that at first, fearing it wil be used against them. But, once they have been taped and have gone over it with me, the teachers fears go away when they see that it's used FOR them..

It takes incredible inner strength and resolve sometimes to be a good teacher. I hope all schools will support their teachers, and I hope all teachers proactively advocate for their kids. That's part of the teacher's role, and if you, as teacher, feel like you can't do your job, then ###### do something about it, instead of getting stuck in a rut and convincing yourself it's a lost cause... That WILL become a self-fullfilling prophecy, in my experience.

Onward, through the fog

[Ijustwannateach]

Very good posts from both Ajarn and Pudgi. I'll pass the advice on where it seems useful. In at least one of the cases I know that the school involved is not exactly helpful, though- has a shoot-the-messenger, if-there's-a-problem-it's-yours kind of mentality in the administration.... then, when the kids can't pass their tests after the years of mickey-mouse, of course it's the teacher to blame!

Thank goodness I'm in the public system!

"Steven"

[Pudgimelon]

However, I would not encourage a farang teacher to bypass their Admin if they want to talk to parents, since this could really come back haunt you. I feel a farang should always meet with a parent only with admin knowledge and support- and as witness. Very important, this last point, in my experience..

Video is very valuable. And not just for evidence of student problems, but for evidence of teaching problems, too. Video can be very valuable to help the teacher learn more effective classroom management skills, in my experience. I've videotaped literally hundreds of teachers, and, as you mentioned, teachers are very nervous about that at first, fearing it wil be used against them. But, once they have been taped and have gone over it with me, the teachers fears go away when they see that it's used FOR them..

Well, I agree with you on both of these points.

Parental contact with teachers seems to make the admins VERY nervous. I think they are afraid what will happen if the teacher tells them exactly how clueless the admins are at running a school.

But I really don't see why they worry about that. Most parents already know that the admins are clueless, they are just resigned to the fact, because they don't have any valid alternative option.

I talk with my parents all the time, anyway. Every week I hold a class after school (on my own time) for interested parents who want to learn better homework assistance techniques.

We've all heard the complaints about parents or maids doing homework for lazy kids, but the real truth is that these people are TRYING to help, they just don't know how to do it properly.

So I sit with the parents and go over various techniques like: how to answer questions with leading questions, how to encourage independent learning, how to provide positive feedback properly, and how to do proper assessment of a child's abilities.

I also talk with parents all the time off school property. I see them at the mall, eat lunch at their houses, and get rides to work in the morning (they all know where I live, so sometimes they swing by to pick me up) and rides home at night. I've had parents ask me to go book-shopping with them and come along with them on trips to flower shows, zoo trips, and other family events. Some of the moms have even taken to calling my girlfriend and gossiping about me, heheh (they always pester her to take good care of me, which, of course, she ignores :-).

So while I agree with you that at some schools the admins definitely set up a barrier between teacher and parent, I'd have to disagree with you that breaking that barrier always ends poorly for the teacher.

I feel I benefit a lot from my interaction with the parents. I learn more about what they want and they learn more about what I'm trying to do. When they question a particular method or assessment, I can sit with them and review why I'm doing something or what a particular score really means (for example, I gave one boy a really low speaking grade because his pronunciation was off. His Dad asked what kind of extra work he should give the kid to help him, and I told him, "We do nothing". Why? Because we just need to wait until the boy's adult teeth grow in before he can accurately pronounce those sounds. The Dad was satisfied with this explanation, and I didn't get any complaints from the school about giving a kid a low score).

On the second point I'd just like to say that I agree with you 100%. Teacher assessment is often viewed with fear by teachers (especially bad ones), but if it's done right (and most importantly with the intent to HELP the teacher IMPROVE, rather than "punish" a bad teacher), it can be an invaluable tool for professional development and classroom management.

Having someone watch you and point out mistakes you make can be a bit unnerving for some people. But if the criticism is listened to constructively, you can benefit a lot from the evaluation. An alternative viewpoint may highlight things you didn't even notice (like maybe you spend too much time with your back to the class, writing on the whiteboard).

[Ajarn]

TTT ...Teacher Talking Time. I sometimes talked too much, taking away from student practice time.

That was what I learned from my first observation when doing the CELTA course many years ago. Even though I had been teaching a number of years before taking this course, I felt the observations and feedback were most valuable for me.

And a teacher can video tape themselves, too. I rarely ever needed to point out problems to teachers. They were almost always obvious to the teacher allready, and they often had their own 'fix' right away.

[Pudgimelon]

By the way, Ajarn. Thanks for turning this thread into a lovefest full of useful advice and complementary posts.

Spoiled all my fun, hippie

[Ajarn]

By the way, Ajarn.  Thanks for turning this thread into a lovefest full of useful advice and complementary posts. 

Spoiled all my fun, hippie 

Well, like granny used to say, "###### 'em if they can't take a joke!"