A Rant + A Polite Request For Native Speakers

[mr_hippo]

Why can't/don't you write in decent English? I have heard all the excuses and they don't work!

1) 'It's only the internet so it does not matter.' Who says it does not matter?

2) 'I was in a rush.' Your reader may also be in a rush and although you may have a valid point, why should we waste time trying to decipher it?

3) 'You know what I mean." Do we? I don't think there are any mind readers here.

4) "You know that 'y' means 'why' and 'u' means 'you' so what is your problem? Are you limited to the number of characters that you are allowed here? Apart from in the Thai language section - English is the site language (see forum rules)

5) I can't spell." Have you heard of spell-check and on-line dictionaries?

Whether you like it or not, we are all teachers. OK, we may not be employed as teachers but who taught your little brother how to kick a football? Who taught your daughter how to tie her shoe laces? And with your tuition, your mate can now strip and rebuild a carburettor!

A lot of posters on this forum do not claim English as their first or even second language - a friend of mine lists English as his seventh! - how many languages can you speak, apart from English, Gibberish and Rubbish? What do non-native speakers get out of this site? They get information, advice and entertainment but they get also get what no English course offers them. How we native speakers use English and not 'phrase book English'. When Mrs Hippo went to England the first time, I was at my eldest daughter's house drinking a cup of tea and she heard my daughter say to me "Your tea's on the table, Dad." Mrs Hippo looked at me, then at the cup and again at me and said "You've already got a cup of tea!" Where I was brought up, we have breakfast, dinner and tea - only posh people have breakfast, lunch and dinner!

So, native speakers, you should be proud of your native land and native tongue but, above all, you should be proud of the work that you publish here. If people cannot easily read your post, they may get the impression that you are uneducated and your opinion is worthless - is that what you want?

OK, rant mode switched off!

[JetsetBkk]

Why can't/don't you write in decent English? I have heard all the excuses and they don't work!

Couldn't agree more! The only "bad" English I write - hopefully - is to drop the "I" from the beginning of sentences, like I just did.

Maybe we can ask blizzard why he writes in such a contrived way?

[zzdocxx]

Hope u feel better now, getting that off ur chest!

:D

[mr_hippo]

Hope u feel better now, getting that off ur chest!

:D

Do you want a reply to that?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hope u feel better now, getting that off ur chest!

:D

Do you want a reply to that?

[LoveDaBlues]

Why can't/don't you write in decent English? I have heard all the excuses and they don't work!

Couldn't agree more! The only "bad" English I write - hopefully - is to drop the "I" from the beginning of sentences, like I just did.

Maybe we can ask blizzard why he writes in such a contrived way?

blizzard still trolls on this forum? ......oh I forgot.....the 'ignore' option is a wonderful thing!

Edited December 10, 2007 by LoveDaBlues

[OlRedEyes]

So, native speakers, you should be proud of your native land and native tongue but, above all, you should be proud of the work that you publish here. If people cannot easily read your post, they may get the impression that you are uneducated and your opinion is worthless - is that what you want?

OK, rant mode switched off!

Why do you have to be so proud of everything? Actually, I know the answer. A rhetorical question, in case you don't get my point.

Know plenty Phd's who's (whos, whos' whoes) opinions are pretty worthless.

If you judge people by their language usage you're doing yourself a disservice, at least.

Even the dull and ignorant can have worthwhile opinions on something. Like me, see?

Someone sprouting off in the Queens Inglish doesn't necessarily know much about the subject they're going on about, as is often the case on general forums.

Much better to judge by the substance of the message than to judge by the standard of grammar and spelling.

Edited December 10, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[PeaceBlondie]

Congratulations to Mr. Hippo! I've been too polite, too tolerant, too "Oh well, this is Thailand, the land of pidgin Engrish, so mai bpen rai to the Queen's English." One of the most ignorant looking posters is not here, but on a teacher's forum that Mr. Hippo knows, where this guy (from an international school, maybe!) thinks it's cute to write in SMS code, like a Matayom 3 girl. He listened too much to that album by Van Halen, OU812, and doesn't make much contribution to the forum even after you decipher his code.

We have a rule on the ThaiVisa Teaching Forum that we can't criticize spelling and English of a poster, but after this excellent rant by Mr. Hippo, I'm tempted to reconsider that rule....

Whilst I'm commenting, there's another poster (also on another forum) who's respected as an expert in a special field. Yet, the advice he gives is gibberish and vague and misleading, so that you never quite know what he's on about?

Finally, a helpful hint: after you've composed your masterpiece, click on the button below named "Other Options" and preview your post. Don't check only for spelling; check for comprehension. Try to use complete sentences, although leaving out the subject "I" is usually understandable. Try to avoid words that are misleading on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. Consider your audience, and even if they are native speakers of English, they didn't have the same professors of English that you had.

In the spirit of fair play, let's not bash each other's misuse of English publicly, but let's all work to be more clear in our posts.

[kankaroo]

To The OP :

Sir, I believe you should get out more often. If you do get out often perhaps you should maybe go for a long massage (maybe with extras )

If you are living in LOS right now and this is what you do with your time, you definitely need to revise your strategy ! Seriously.

Repeat after me, "Xanax is good", "Xanax is good",

LOL

Edited December 10, 2007 by kankaroo

[Iolare]

I’m also part of the group who appreciate people taking the time and effort to communicate their thoughts clearly. It allows for a better flow in a discussion thread not to be distracted by having to divine what the poster is trying to say due to poor spelling, composition, inebriation, or regional slang. That is not to say that every post should have to be fit for submission in an essay contest. A conversational tone is fine to me as long as it moves the discussion along without those annoying stops to figure out what the guy meant.

This is an international English forum and while regional eccentricities are interesting, they can be confusing to others from the other side of the pond, as PeaceBlonde mentioned For example, some Australian posters use slang that, while colorful, is a little difficult to follow. When they say “mate,” I know they’re probably not referring to their wife or girlfriend, but instead their good drinking buddy. But when they use “piss” one wonders if it as a bodily function, a slur, or a glass of beer. It’s sometimes hard to be sure. But not to pick on the Aussies, who seem to be a rather congenial group; I mention them because they seem to be the majority of the expats in LOS.

Probably everyone is a little ethnocentric regarding the language, just assuming that their particular dialect is the gold standard. I, as an American will plead guilty to that charge. And, I appreciate that some posters are communicating a second or third language, and certainly don’t expect perfection from anyone, just an honest effort to be clear. Yesterday I bought some items at a shop that had a Thai receptionist who spoke some English. As I was leaving i said “Seeya.” When she looked puzzled I had to add, “it was nice to talk to you. Goodbye.”

[jetjock]

Sir--I no what u mean Mr-Hippo. Just like u, I kan't stand 2 reed the ill-literate righters here on the phorum. Let'z get rid of awl of them ! I am verry proud of my nateve Engrish ! Sorry my spel cheker is broked .

[PhilHarries]

I can tolerate bad spelling and bad grammar when I know the poster is not a native English speaker. But some of what I read, even from fellow Brits, makes me cringe and I am nowhere near perfect.

But all that pales into insignificance when compared with that sms cr@p. I understand, to a point, it's use when tapping out sms messages on the mobile phone. But when on the computer you have a full keyboard at your disposal. The most complex operation is pressing "shift" at the same time as another key to get a capital and some folks can't even do that.

Of course there are some who will argue that any modern language is in a state of constant flux and change, or evolution, is inevitable. New words, or new meanings for existing words, are constantly appearing and many old words are disappearing from use. But that is not what we are seeing with this sms cyber babble. It is laziness pure and simple and I've heard of cases where students have submitted their course work using sms. If I were a teacher it would be rejected "0.0 points - resubmit". But of course in this brave new world we can't do that as failure cannot be meted out and everyone has to leave college with qualifications however valueless.

btw do we also incude shortenings such as "btw" and "afaik" and "rotflmao"?

<deleted> that wud b takin tings 2 far an mak 4 posts dat r 2 long 2 read. IMHO.

[camerata]

5) I can't spell." Have you heard of spell-check and on-line dictionaries?

The easiest solution is simply to use Firefox instead of Internet Explorer. It has a nice check-as-you-type feature.

What's really ridiculous is the 99% of posters who think that "Thai's" is the plural of "Thai."

[DirkGently]

Sir, whilst I may agree in principle, I would like to see for myself the offending post that triggered your original statement.

[mrtoad]

Sir, whilst I may agree in principle, I would like to see for myself the offending post that triggered your original statement.

I think it would be the 1,200 or so posts from a particular person.

[Tywais]

The new word for today: pedantic

[mr_hippo]

Sir, whilst I may agree in principle, I would like to see for myself the offending post that triggered your original statement.

There was not one single offending post but many over the past few months.

So, native speakers, you should be proud of your native land and native tongue but, above all, you should be proud of the work that you publish here. If people cannot easily read your post, they may get the impression that you are uneducated and your opinion is worthless - is that what you want?

OK, rant mode switched off!

Why do you have to be so proud of everything? Actually, I know the answer. A rhetorical question, in case you don't get my point.

Know plenty Phd's who's (whos, whos' whoes) opinions are pretty worthless.

If you judge people by their language usage you're doing yourself a disservice, at least. How am I?

Even the dull and ignorant can have worthwhile opinions on something. Like me, see? I see that you are playing devil's advocate.

Someone sprouting off in the Queens Inglish doesn't necessarily know much about the subject they're going on about, as is often the case on general forums.

Much better to judge by the substance of the message than to judge by the standard of grammar and spelling. The substance is often lost due to the use of poor English.

Iolare, I am not advocating that we write as if we were submitting an essay, as you said 'A conversational tone is fine...' There are variations in the language and indeed it can change within miles. Where I come from a 'moggy' is a cat but go to the next town about 3 miles away and 'moggy' becomes mouse. I remember talking to an American friend of mine years ago and I used, what I thought was a standard American expression - 'If I had my druthers...' and he did not know what I was talking about!

jetjock - I bet that your reply took you longer to write in mangled English than it would have done in normal English.

PhilHarris - we gradually get to know the location of the posters, even if their profile says 'location unknown' and we do make allowances.

Tywais - I don't think I'm being pedantic.

[PeaceBlondie]

Yes, it is pedantic to many, but Mr. Hippo's OP is merely asking native speakers of English, who have no excuse to post poorly, to communicate more clearly. That's not asking too much, is it? We need not write perfect essays, but we seem agreed that SMS slang is hard to decipher. Improper use of it's - well, its a problem.

[kmart]

Sir, whilst I may agree in principle, I would like to see for myself the offending post that triggered your original statement.

I think it would be the 1,200 or so posts from a particular person.

lol

[intumult]

Do we aft ta gan darn the rowed of talkin proper?

Next we will be told to say it is 25 minutes past 4 instead of 5 and twenty past. Can't get away with 5 and twenty past 1600 hours!!

Besides, e-mail, internet chat and forums have always used abbreviations for the last 11 years that I know of. Why change now? Live and let live. Before you repeat it is for non-native readers, surely it is part and parcel of understanding English (American English, Australian English, English British etc.)

[ade100]

Why can't/don't you write in decent English? I have heard all the excuses and they don't work!

1) 'It's only the internet so it does not matter.' Who says it does not matter?

2) 'I was in a rush.' Your reader may also be in a rush and although you may have a valid point, why should we waste time trying to decipher it?

3) 'You know what I mean." Do we? I don't think there are any mind readers here.

4) "You know that 'y' means 'why' and 'u' means 'you' so what is your problem? Are you limited to the number of characters that you are allowed here? Apart from in the Thai language section - English is the site language (see forum rules)

5) I can't spell." Have you heard of spell-check and on-line dictionaries?

Whether you like it or not, we are all teachers. OK, we may not be employed as teachers but who taught your little brother how to kick a football? Who taught your daughter how to tie her shoe laces? And with your tuition, your mate can now strip and rebuild a carburettor!

A lot of posters on this forum do not claim English as their first or even second language - a friend of mine lists English as his seventh! - how many languages can you speak, apart from English, Gibberish and Rubbish? What do non-native speakers get out of this site? They get information, advice and entertainment but they get also get what no English course offers them. How we native speakers use English and not 'phrase book English'. When Mrs Hippo went to England the first time, I was at my eldest daughter's house drinking a cup of tea and she heard my daughter say to me "Your tea's on the table, Dad." Mrs Hippo looked at me, then at the cup and again at me and said "You've already got a cup of tea!" Where I was brought up, we have breakfast, dinner and tea - only posh people have breakfast, lunch and dinner!

So, native speakers, you should be proud of your native land and native tongue but, above all, you should be proud of the work that you publish here. If people cannot easily read your post, they may get the impression that you are uneducated and your opinion is worthless - is that what you want?

OK, rant mode switched off!

Here here.

[Tywais]

Tywais - I don't think I'm being pedantic.

My apologies, it was meant as tongue in cheek. This topic does pop up once in a while so perhaps a fresh look at it is not unreasonable. As for myself, I admit to being pedantic but only to my own postings. It rarely bothers me that native language speakers are sometimes careless or casual in their posting styles, as long as the message is clearly understood. Even native speakers come from different backgrounds, different speaking styles, different education levels and even different slang which they may consider normal everyday speech in their home country. However, having said that, there is the occasional poster whose posting style is so difficult to read that I stop bothering with their posts.

However, your point of teaching other members proper style using 'lead by example' methodology is sound. I have found my own language being influenced by the British and Australian posters here in that I often use the same vernacular, and surprisingly, seems natural to me now. So in effect, my own American English is getting corrupted.

One of my responsibilities where I work is proof reading manuscripts for publication and sometimes questioning my own editing/spelling corrections lately due to spending so much time on Thaivisa reading posts.

[blizzard]

wot?

i really like posters who right guud english but post nuttin but bullshit.........you no who u r............lol.

[LeungKen]

Tywais, thank you for the apology and for taking the time to explain yourself.

I think there are many of us who are guilty of firing off quick "one-liners' more for their comic effect than for the good of the thread.

I was actually going to write this reply a little earlier but was sidetracked by the need to eat lunch, then on returning I see you have covered some of points that I was going to highlight, as in the standard of education we achieved and even which version of English we speak. I don't want to dwell on my own lack of education ( though at the time and place it was deemed sufficient) but what I do try to do is at least make every effort to dot my "i"s and cross my "t"s, (both literally and metaphorically) I believe it is not only essential in trying to make oneself understood, but it is also common courtesy.

I believe the Original Poster is trying to make a valid point and I personally don't see anything wrong in a little constructive criticism, so let's all try to make the effort to spell correctly wherever possible and to try to use punctuation where necessary.

I sincerely do not want to upset anyone with this post, and most certainly accept there are many of us from all walks of life, and from various points around the globe, allowances must be made for various reasons, but the OP's wish for us to correct the laziness and general "Dumbing-Down" that is occuring in our writings, is being taken onboard by this old bloke.

P.S. If anyone wants to point out any grammatical mistakes I am more than willing to hear of them.

(Then I'll be round to your place to rip your bl....... arms off !!!)

Edited December 10, 2007 by LeungKen

[disgruntled]

I know 'Internet' is spelled with a capital 'I' so from now on use it. Why don't we get rid of these ridiculous names and use traditional names like John, Michael, Stanley, Alan, Mary, Ellen, Patricia, etc. Please put some clothes on while you are typing your posts.

Thank you in advance.

Alfred Frances Jones

[Jingthing]

Unclear writing reflects negatively on the writer and sometimes reflects foggy thinking.

I am no purist in my writing or reading. Sometimes breaking "rules" is fun and when done selectively communicates even more. However, my bit pet peeve is UNCLEAR communication.

You can take from that I have a pet peeve about the UNCLEAR messages we regularly get from Thai immigration. How much would it cost to hire a native English speaking communications specialist to revamp and update their website(s) so that we are not always left to read the tea leaves?

Edited December 10, 2007 by Jingthing

[tuky]

Isn't pre-emptive texting on on a mobile easier to use than sms language? I think so and if I ever own a mobile again I will always use it as I have done in the past.

Other than that, I didn't major in ENglish Lit (and as you can see sometimes my shift key finger is slower than my letter key fimger) so I often am left wondering what is the correct way to use English.

I am reading a book at the moment where the author uses the phrase 'could care less' to describe something that he couldn't care less about, and this is a best seller, so I have to ask, is my perception that the literal meaning of could care less and couldn't care less is incorrect? could care less means to me that the writer could actually care less about the subject so infact is not stating what he actually means, which I presume is he couldn't actually care less.

Then there is the other of and have, how many times I see someone say they could of done this or that, should that not be could have done this or that? I think that one has been mixed up because of and have sounds so similar when spoken in a sentence, right?

ANyway, who are we to judge another persons writing ability, I won't judge your ability in my field.

Have a happy whatever the holiday is today

[JetsetBkk]

Unclear writing reflects negatively on the writer and sometimes reflects foggy thinking.

I am no purist in my writing or reading. Sometimes breaking "rules" is fun and when done selectively communicates even more. However, my bit pet peeve is UNCLEAR communication.

For example:

Gone native yet, in the eating utensil department?

I have noticed without thinking sometimes eating non-Thai food the Thai fork into spoon way.

Talk about "pot, kettle, black!!"

[JetsetBkk]

...the author uses the phrase 'could care less' to describe something that he couldn't care less about, and this is a best seller, so I have to ask, is my perception that the literal meaning of could care less and couldn't care less is incorrect? could care less means to me that the writer could actually care less about the subject so in fact is not stating what he actually means, which I presume is he couldn't actually care less.

I'm glad you brought that up. Many's the time I wanted to bring up that subject, but haven't because the person writing it is usually American and the fact that he has used that particular phrase means he's already pissed off with someone, so I chickened out asking why he's saying the exact opposite of what he means.

[JetsetBkk]

5) I can't spell." Have you heard of spell-check and on-line dictionaries?

The easiest solution is simply to use Firefox instead of Internet Explorer. It has a nice check-as-you-type feature.

What's really ridiculous is the 99% of posters who think that "Thai's" is the plural of "Thai."

Ah, the "Errant apostrophe".

People have written books on that subject.

And web sites!