American/british Prose Style

[PeaceBlondie]

True, Brits probably don't use gotten for the third part of the verb get. Americans do. Americans don't spell burnt or learnt as a verb, but might use burnt as an adjective (not thinking of the spelling as a past particple). I struggled through an Intermediate grammar text by Headway recently, where the preferences for certain verbs over others went against my grain. May/might/can or will/go to, and other British distinctions I just don't use.

[polecat]

Using Wikipedia to back up theories is like quoting a bloke down the pub. Stop it, it's silly!

Well done the poster who mentioned Melvyn Bragg. He has a (mostly) fantastic book about the history of the English Language, written in a pretty accessible way. Interested parties should also check out 'Mother Tongue' by Bill Bryson, which was written before he did all his travel stuff. as far as etymology goes, Eric Partridge is your man.

[WaiWai]

And let's not forget David Crystal.

quote name='raslin' date='2007-12-13 09:40:10' post='1703635']

Soldering is the spelling. How do you Brits pronounce it?

Brits, Aussies, and perhaps others say "sold" as in "old"; not as in "odd", oddly .

Brits say this where? Never heard in 50+ years.

"sol" as in "solid" sol(id)ering.

Use to do it all the time repairing radios (these are the same as wirelesses)

You say "solidering" ? (Seems a bit like nucelar , dunnit ?) May I ask where you're from ? We need phonetic symbols here. Some US English speakers (don't know how uniformly) pronounce it "sodder", whilst UK English, so far as I know, says "solder", just like older, bolder, folder in standard UK English.

So, you heard one child, and now it is all of America dumbing down the English language? I learned it as "HAD."

If you want to find examples of the bastardization of the English language, you should find plenty in good ol' England itself

Linguists nowadays don't prescribe to judgements as they did in the perhaps more colourful, prescriptive past. (think Fowler); the aim is now to describe.

The English dialects are fascinating. I had not heard of the isles where one can wax Shakespearean. (How he would enjoy that !). USA still has German-speaking pockets, I understand. English does have an enormously rich vocabulary. None of we native speakers will ever master it all.

How many Brits have moved to London, for example, for study/work and returned to their native city and been accused of talking 'posh'? Does the same thing happen to Billy Joe Bob from Podunk, Tn on his return from Boston? Or Bruce from Wagga Wagga Podunk, WA when he returns from Sydney?

Indeed it does; it's an example of the linguistic adaptability mentioned earlier,

You have made me wonder - where's home for Posh Spice ? Does she have a Mam or a Mother ? Doesn’t being a Spice make true British poshness an impossiblity ?

[kat]

uhm, Polecat, my post about JFK's speech is no theory, it's fact; wikipedia is convenient for an online post, and it is full of references in one handy place. In this case, it has two important German links on the topic.

Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue is full of errors and inaccuracies and was a factual disaster, although popular in England.

[Prakanong]

"You have made me wonder - where's home for Posh Spice ? Does she have a Mam or a Mother ? Doesn’t being a Spice make true British poshness an impossiblity ?"

Posh Spice will have a "Mum" while I have a "Mam" - I can describe her varuously though as "Me Mam" or "Me Ma" as in "Me Mam Says" or "Me Ma says" or

"Tell me ma me ma

I won't be home for tea

We're gannin to Wembley

Tell me ma me ma"

Sung to the tune of Que Sera Sera

[WaiWai]

"You have made me wonder - where's home for Posh Spice ? Does she have a Mam or a Mother ? Doesn’t being a Spice make true British poshness an impossiblity ?"

Posh Spice will have a "Mum" while I have a "Mam" - I can describe her varuously though as "Me Mam" or "Me Ma" as in "Me Mam Says" or "Me Ma says" or

"Tell me ma me ma

I won't be home for tea

We're gannin to Wembley

Tell me ma me ma"

Sung to the tune of Que Sera Sera

My own mother fought vigourously against the use of "Mum". She wanted "Mother" or "Mummy" . Needless to say we did call her Mum. Awful how we treated our parents, innit.

[polecat]

uhm, Polecat, my post about JFK's speech is no theory, it's fact; wikipedia is convenient for an online post, and it is full of references in one handy place. In this case, it has two important German links on the topic.

Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue is full of errors and inaccuracies and was a factual disaster, although popular in England.

Do you see the irony of your post? Wikipedia contains more inaccuracies and downright falsehoods than Bill Bryson could dream up in a lifetime. Use it for the links to other works, sure, but... ah... read this http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051214-5768.html

I have no doubt that JFK was right - I'm a German speaker myself. It's an amusing urban legend, though.

I think you're being a little harsh on 'Mother Tongue', as an entry level book on the history of English and the basics of how languages work, I think it's superb. Not an academic reference book, to be sure, factual disaster? No.

[mr_hippo]

While/whilst - basically interchangeable but occasionally 'whilst' seems to fit better!

Can/may - can: ability - may: permission but again with modern usage they are interchangeable.

PB - "Can I buy you a beer, Mr Hippo?"

MH - "I don't know, do you have any money?" By the way, I would rather have a nice single malt, do you have any Isle of Jura?

raslin, where are you from? "Sol" as in "solid" sol(id)ering. Seems to be Northern Ireland - compare with 'fil(u)m'

Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue is full of errors and inaccuracies and was a factual disaster, although popular in England.

Is it supposed to be a reference work? It is more of a 'primer' and if it gets people interested in the subject, it can only do good. Just to echo Polecat's point, I would place Wikipedia on a par with the National Enquirer!

'Got' - the Britush have only retained 'gotten' as in 'forgotten'. One of my old English masters, Charley Middlehurst, had a hatred of the verb 'to get', cannot now recall why. He also advised us not to watch Star Trek because 'they split the infinitive'!

Edited December 13, 2007 by mr_hippo

[cm-happy]

Oops, changed mind about replying. Some things are better left unsaid.

[kat]

uhm, Polecat, my post about JFK's speech is no theory, it's fact; wikipedia is convenient for an online post, and it is full of references in one handy place. In this case, it has two important German links on the topic.

Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue is full of errors and inaccuracies and was a factual disaster, although popular in England.

Do you see the irony of your post? Wikipedia contains more inaccuracies and downright falsehoods than Bill Bryson could dream up in a lifetime. Use it for the links to other works, sure, but... ah... read this http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051214-5768.html

I have no doubt that JFK was right - I'm a German speaker myself. It's an amusing urban legend, though.

I think you're being a little harsh on 'Mother Tongue', as an entry level book on the history of English and the basics of how languages work, I think it's superb. Not an academic reference book, to be sure, factual disaster? No.

Actually, I didn't base my comments about Bryson on Wikipedia, I based it on the reviews that it got, and from linguists and other historians. No, it's not a reference book, but when you go through the trouble of writing a book, the assertions you make and acknowledge as interesting information should be researched and accurate.

In terms of Wikipedia, no it is not perfect, but it is an easy online source when one needs back up references without going through the trouble of assembling a bibliography. For the example I was discussing, it is perfect because it deals with a subject of popular culture, and it has links to very good references by German academics that you can follow up on, so it gets the job done; And besides, my references were accurate. *Even your despised Wikipedia does a better job.

Do you see your irony? But further to the point, do you see hypocrisy anywhere? No, I'm sure you don't, because it doesn't involve Americans.

While/whilst - basically interchangeable but occasionally 'whilst' seems to fit better!

Can/may - can: ability - may: permission but again with modern usage they are interchangeable.

PB - "Can I buy you a beer, Mr Hippo?"

MH - "I don't know, do you have any money?" By the way, I would rather have a nice single malt, do you have any Isle of Jura?

raslin, where are you from? "Sol" as in "solid" sol(id)ering. Seems to be Northern Ireland - compare with 'fil(u)m'

Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue is full of errors and inaccuracies and was a factual disaster, although popular in England.

Just to echo Polecat's point, I would place Wikipedia on a par with the National Enquirer!

Was the reference correct or not? If so, then your post is on par with the National Enquirer - all conjecture and hyperbole.

*edit

Edited December 13, 2007 by kat

[kat]

Oops, changed mind about replying. Some things are better left unsaid.

Yes, I know CM, but we often don't say anything and that's the problem.

[WaiWai]

Oops, changed mind about replying. Some things are better left unsaid.

Yes, I know CM, but we often don't say anything and that's the problem.

Well, can we say what it is BB is alleged to have got wrong ?

[kat]

Yes, of course. It is widely known that his book was chock full of errors and inaccuracies; just pick a page. But, for starters, he was wrong about single words for several other languages, and most notably his assertions about Eskimos and multiple words for snow. The book is a form of entertainment, but it is not factual. I think it is so popular with some because it flatters the notion that the English language is superior to all others.

[WaiWai]

Yes, of course. It is widely known that his book was chock full of errors and inaccuracies; just pick a page. But, for starters, he was wrong about single words for several other languages, and most notably his assertions about Eskimos and multiple words for snow. The book is a form of entertainment, but it is not factual. I think it is so popular with some because it flatters the notion that the English language is superior to all others.

Thanks for the reply. Kat.

Have the book but have not read it yet and was unaware of any controversy .

English is a very rich language; the vocab rather larger than most.

[kat]

I think it's a great read, and vastly entertaining. You can also learn a lot, but you can't take his informational tour as gospel. It's merely a tour, that is mostly off the cuff.

[elkangorito]

"Prose"...let me see. Ah yes, now I remember!

From my observations, I have difficulty understanding some TV posts & invariably, these posts are mainly from Britons (UK), Americans & Australians...in that order.

Forgiving the total lack of punctuation or capatilisation in some posts, I find the use of some phrases particularly confusing.

"What's up?" (not found on TV). This completely modern & awful Americanism has infected the whole world. I have spent countless hours explaining to my Thai students that the question, "What's up?" means, "What is wrong with you?" if asked to an older Native English speaking foreigner. It does not mean "Hello". It could mean "How are you" but does it?

A few years ago, I worked with an Australian who had lived & worked in the UK for a few years. One day at work, he said to me, "Ya right?" I looked at him strangely & said, "Of course I'm ok. Why are you asking?" He then enlightened me that it is a form of greeting in the UK.

Often on TV, I find that Americans (& no other) quite often use "then" instead of "than". I suspect this is because they "type" how they speak. For example, "I would rather watch television then go to the cinema." This can be a bit confusing.

I have an Australian born friend, who has never left the shores of Australia (sadly), who insists that "should of" is correct & "should have" is incorrect. For example, he would say, "I should of done that."

It's no wonder that the world is turning upside-down.

BTW & excusing the "lazy English speaking" Australians, Australia is the only country in the world, in which the Queens English is spoken unilaterally. There are no accent or "idiomatic" differences from state to state (including territories).

Just slightly off topic, I remember when I was teaching English in Argentina, my students once went to England for 6 weeks on an "educational tour". They came back totally confused. Their biggest problem was not being able to understand the extreme accent differences from place to place. They said that London was the easiest place for them as far as understanding the spoken language was concerned.

Edited December 13, 2007 by elkangorito

[Jingthing]

elka, your post reminded me of an experience I had as a teen on a train in Italy. My friend and I were chatting back and forth in full blown American youth slang (of the time). There were two young women in the same compartment but they just sat there in silence. This went on for about an hour. Then we started to talk to the women and we asked them where they were going. They replied in perfect English, we are going to London to continue our English studies but we didn't understand a word you were saying and now we are very worried ...

[Tinkelbell]

elka, your post reminded me of an experience I had as a teen on a train in Italy. My friend and I were chatting back and forth in full blown American youth slang (of the time). There were two young women in the same compartment but they just sat there in silence. This went on for about an hour. Then we started to talk to the women and we asked them where they were going. They replied in perfect English, we are going to London to continue our English studies but we didn't understand a word you were saying and now we are very worried ...

............................

That's very funny.

Thanks for a good laugh , jingthing.

[Stephen Cleary]

While/whilst - basically interchangeable but occasionally 'whilst' seems to fit better!

Can/may - can: ability - may: permission but again with modern usage they are interchangeable.

PB - "Can I buy you a beer, Mr Hippo?"

MH - "I don't know, do you have any money?" By the way, I would rather have a nice single malt, do you have any Isle of Jura?

raslin, where are you from? "Sol" as in "solid" sol(id)ering. Seems to be Northern Ireland - compare with 'fil(u)m'

How ye dain Mr Ippo? Yer definitely turning into thai-visa's very own 'The Hot Hippo English Teacher'!

Perhaps ye ought tae get a job on Thai tele teaching English, most ah the Thais are pretty bored of that Farang geezer wi the bald head - ye ought tae take his place.

I really reckon too that thai-visa start up a brand new forum called 'Ask Mr Hippo'. So that when we cannae think of the right English word like, we can post our question their, such as what's the fookin difference between a chick and a bird?

[kat]

Somehow, that English is a lot more interesting than this entire thread. Maybe your guy can be the host.

[WaiWai]

BTW & excusing the "lazy English speaking" Australians, Australia is the only country in the world, in which the Queens English is spoken unilaterally. There are no accent or "idiomatic" differences from state to state (including territories).

Not strictly true, but almost. Australia most certainly differs from USA & Canada in this respect. There are some distinct differences in accent and vocab which all Aussies are aware of.

Anyway, if we're going to talk about the changing language, what about "worse". ? I very frequently see that used in place of "worst". That would be an odd change, because we'd lose a meaningful distinction.

Edited December 14, 2007 by WaiWai

[JetsetBkk]

PB - "Can I buy you a beer, Mr Hippo?"

MH - "I don't know, do you have any money?"

...and American: "Do you got money?"

[kat]

uhm, that's not "American", that's bad grammar. There is no where in America, where anyone is teaching or officially using this as "American." It's slang, or and bad grammar.

[Northpoint]

When I'm talking to Aussies I can talk in Broad Yorkshire, when my American friend is visiting I have to talk English.

Aussies have a better ear for foreign accents and are more intelligent than the average Yank.

[OlRedEyes]

I don't have a problem with anybody's English. It's just the Scots that seem to be from another planet.

[canuckamuck]

The students at our college get their share of North American and UK teachers coming through.

Without exception the students complain that they find the UK teachers are difficult to undestand. Although they find it amusing, and they don't like or dislike them for that. When a teacher is good, the students respond well despite the accent.

[WaiWai]

The students at our college get their share of North American and UK teachers coming through.

Without exception the students complain that they find the UK teachers are difficult to undestand

Probably because of the "movies" they watch.

[mr_hippo]

The students at our college get their share of North American and UK teachers coming through.

Without exception the students complain that they find the UK teachers are difficult to undestand. Although they find it amusing, and they don't like or dislike them for that. When a teacher is good, the students respond well despite the accent.

Doesn't anyone teach listening skills?

[Mosha]

A few years ago, I worked with an Australian who had lived & worked in the UK for a few years. One day at work, he said to me, "Ya right?" I looked at him strangely & said, "Of course I'm ok. Why are you asking?" He then enlightened me that it is a form of greeting in the UK.

Might be a spelling thing or an accent thing. In West Yorkshire, England it's "Yo'right?" (prounounced in my neck of the woods Yeright? rising tone As opposed to yereight as in correct.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Mosha

[kat]

When I'm talking to Aussies I can talk in Broad Yorkshire, when my American friend is visiting I have to talk English.

Aussies have a better ear for foreign accents and are more intelligent than the average Yank.

What's an average Yank - have you assembled a large, random sample, or is this a theory you got off of the telly?