Kidnapping

[lawling]

Back in the UK, I keep being asked about the reports which emerge from time to time concerning village girls being kidnapped by gangs or impoverished parents selling their daughters to gangs for a few thousand baht.

I have to admit that I have no knowledge of either practice and have never spoken to a Thai person who claimed to have been a victim. However most of my time is spent around Jomtien so I don't really know what goes on in the "real" Thailand.

Since there are many members of the Forum who apparently live in villages, speak the language and are well integrated into local communities, I would be interest to hear from them as to whether they have knowledge of kidnap or sale. Either direct experience or reports from their partners or in-laws. Are the practices mythical or historical or do they still happen, and if so are they widespread practices?

[yorkman]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

[TheWalkingMan]

...No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death...

Not so sure about that, as I have heard one story of a young girl being sold off by her parents to an older man. Not sure if it was to be a permanent sale or some type of rental/temporary agreement. This occurred in Issan approx 8 years ago. I got the impression that this happens more than people like to think about.

TheWalkingMan

Edit: changed one word for clarity.

Edited December 19, 2007 by TheWalkingMan

[kat]

I don't know about kidnapping, but there is a long history of concubinage and daughters for sale in Asia and in LOS, and it's very contemporary. One could also say that the high rate of mercenary marriages to foreigners is also a sale of daughters, albeit one that has been updated to modern circumstances. Under the right circumstances, both daughters and sons are for sale.

[stateman]

Local media had a featured story once. It was fairly widely practiced. This has been so well known that it no longer is news.

Thai farmers have been chronically exploited with depressed produce price. Middlemen are the ones getting fat, regardless of price levels.

With cash flow at or below subsistence level, female family members became a natural cash 'product'. I also read elsewhere that even the wife of some poor village heads had to go to work in the beer bar or similar places catering to men.

This also explains the political exploits where certain political party offered B100-500 for vote buying. Without exposure to political truth in the media, for many, the input is through the guys who give them cash.

A new twist reported recently was not only for the normal vote buying to vote for the candidate(s) suggested by the money men, now they also pay money to people in the areas where folks favored political oppositions. Money were given in exchange for their ID cards, which would be returned after the election. Thus, these folks could not go to vote for the opposition!

Most of these irregularities are reported to be actions by one of the largest party which is in the must-win situation.

[kat]

Excellent Post. Thanks Stateman. The depressed rice prices and fat middlemen have also been around since the beginning.

[stateman]

Excellent Post. Thanks Stateman. The depressed rice prices and fat middlemen have also been around since the beginning.

Thanks for the compliment.

As for rice price, I wish the government will offer price support, similar to what the US and several other countries do. Granted, there is some form of international agreement to not do that. But it is still widely practiced.

I wish they earn a decent living for all their hard work. Many of the social problems can be alleviated. Not sure we will see it happen in this life time.

Currently there is only 1 political party which announce a policy for good price support. No other major parties care about the issue.

[Lickey]

Hi Lawling, hears an old Issan post to read about kidnapping ect, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=110194 6 pages but a good read and let us know your feelings on it if you wish, Cheers, Lickey.

[Spee]

Excellent Post. Thanks Stateman. The depressed rice prices and fat middlemen have also been around since the beginning.

There is more info and links here:

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand

I think one also needs to differentiate between kidnapping, forced trafficking and trafficking by mutual consent (which may or may not become forced at some later point). I say that not in terms of any kind of moral judgment, but rather to make a point that some people are trafficked with their consent.

Kidnapping and forced trafficking are ... well .. criminal acts with criminal intent and should be investigated and prosecuted in accordance with local and international law. I have no doubt that these happen in significant numbers, I would suspect there is at least as much if not more trafficking by mutual consent. In the latter case, people make a "deal with the devil" because they think it offers opportunity and a way out of present circumstances. I suspect that even on some occasions these situations work out for all parties involved.

But I think a lot more do not work out as planned because the terms of the deal change when the trafficked person winds up in unexpected circumstances, alone, and in a strange country. For example, a person agrees to be trafficked to another country with a promise to work under the table in a factory, only to arrive in country, find out there is no factory job, but plenty of "opportunities" for jobs in bars, strip clubs and brothels.

[Spee]

As for rice price, I wish the government will offer price support, similar to what the US and several other countries do.

(OT I know, sorry) Unfortunately these types of price control policies usually end up hurting the people they are intended to help. For example, the Japanese government provides price controls and support for the native rice farming industry. As a result, the Japanese people pay about triple the average market price for rice. There are similar examples where price control policies don't work in the UK and US agricultural industries, too.

[kat]

Excellent Post. Thanks Stateman. The depressed rice prices and fat middlemen have also been around since the beginning.

There is more info and links here:

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand

I think one also needs to differentiate between kidnapping, forced trafficking and trafficking by mutual consent (which may or may not become forced at some later point). I say that not in terms of any kind of moral judgment, but rather to make a point that some people are trafficked with their consent.

Kidnapping and forced trafficking are ... well .. criminal acts with criminal intent and should be investigated and prosecuted in accordance with local and international law. I have no doubt that these happen in significant numbers, I would suspect there is at least as much if not more trafficking by mutual consent. In the latter case, people make a "deal with the devil" because they think it offers opportunity and a way out of present circumstances. I suspect that even on some occasions these situations work out for all parties involved.

But I think a lot more do not work out as planned because the terms of the deal change when the trafficked person winds up in unexpected circumstances, alone, and in a strange country. For example, a person agrees to be trafficked to another country with a promise to work under the table in a factory, only to arrive in country, find out there is no factory job, but plenty of "opportunities" for jobs in bars, strip clubs and brothels.

Yes, agreed. I think there are still cases where people are trafficked under the guise of fake relationships, and then enslaved at the destination. That it is at least the case with other countries, but I don't if that is the case with Thailand right now. It is definitely the case with others being trafficked TO Thailand.

[yorkman]

........ That it is at least the case with other countries

......... It is definitely the case with others being trafficked TO Thailand.

Oh yes, that happens! In fact there is one in the next house down the road from me.

It's different to the inferences above, in this case a middle aged lady, from Lao. Lives in what can be described as a "hut" in the garden of a, in her opinion, hi-so lady; she does all the housework, gardening etc and gets 1500B a month and her food. She cannot go outside the property for fear of the police, although heck, if I know they must know!!

My wife was intreagued (just got to know all, you know how it is ) so she had a chat with her while her employer was out. She was apparently promised a good job in Thailand on payment of a fee, they got her over the Mekong (no passport but thats not too hard, the border is wide open) and well, there she is. Very unhappy with her lot and not what she was promised.

That fits the profile of "trafficking" too IMHO, although far less sensational

[PattayaParent]

Isn't the Sin Sot a 'sale' of the daughter to the man?

Sounds just like what TheWalkingMan describes.

[mellow1]

For the last few years there have been vans going around abducting children. One girl was abducted from inside town at the night market. I found out about it because my son told me about it, the school had talked to the children to warn them to be careful. I thought there was a thread about this a few months back here on TV. Also there was an article in the paper a while back about the government educating people to not sell their children. Maybe it was a weird dream I had, since no one here seems to recall any of this. For sure its not something us parents want to dwell on(most parents anyways).

[lawling]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

When I hear stories about people selling their children I always wonder why they would want to do that since it would be much more profitable on the long run to have a child who go away to work but send money home.

But the stories persist. I recently came across the following for example -

http://www.feminista.com/archives/v2n5/vijayakumar.html

[tijnebijn]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

He probably does without knowing it perhaps .

near my wifes shop are some go go bars , or karaoke bars or whatever

you call them , hearing them speak bad Thai .

my wifes insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheared their

conversations while eating some noodle soup .

They are the ones who are ' selling their daugthers ' , probably also for worse destinations .

Very sad happening , and very dangerous .

Don't think there are much Thais doing this practise , like one poster said they are overspoiling them .

[lawling]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

He probably does without knowing it perhaps .

near my wifes shop are some go go bars , or karaoke bars or whatever

you call them , hearing them speak bad Thai .

my wifes insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheared their

conversations while eating some noodle soup .

They are the ones who are ' selling their daugthers ' , probably also for worse destinations .

Very sad happening , and very dangerous .

Don't think there are much Thais doing this practise , like one poster said they are overspoiling them .

Do I take it from this that hilltribe people are not regarded as Thais?

[tijnebijn]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

He probably does without knowing it perhaps .

near my wife's shop are some go go bars , or karaoke bars or whatever

you call them , hearing them speak bad Thai .

my wife insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheard their

conversations while eating some noodle soup .

They are the ones who are ' selling their daughters ' , probably also for worse destinations .

Very sad happening , and very dangerous .

Don't think there are much Thais doing this practise , like one poster said they are overspilling them .

Do I take it from this that hill tribe people are not regarded as Thais?

They are not originated Thais yes , some are Thai and many are ( still ) not .

Maybe you are right that they are not regarded so much as Thais yet , they speak

dress and look different .

Anyway its hard to tell if the hill tribe woman are Thai or not , maybe they came over from Burma

to work over here , don't know .

But at least you have got an idea know from where all these woman came from , and of course

they are the ones who come from very remote areas if they are born in Thailand .

So its just a matter of speaking , does that bother you ?

[kat]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

He probably does without knowing it perhaps .

near my wifes shop are some go go bars , or karaoke bars or whatever

you call them , hearing them speak bad Thai .

my wifes insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheared their

conversations while eating some noodle soup .

They are the ones who are ' selling their daugthers ' , probably also for worse destinations .

Very sad happening , and very dangerous .

Don't think there are much Thais doing this practise , like one poster said they are overspoiling them .

No, I'm sorry but is absolutely incorrect. Not too long ago, it was Thais who were openly selling children until there was international pressure to change, and Thai law was amended as well as educational policy to allow longer free education. Although now there is a lot of consensual trafficking to Japan, it started as forced or deceptive trafficking. I wouldn't say that Thais have stopped selling their children, only that the process has changed and become more underground.

Hilltribe people do not have ID cards or a national identity, and are therefore stateless and cannot go to school, have a residential address, or even legally travel outside of a very restricted radius without risk of arrest. You can be sure that Thais and others are most definitely involved in the trafficking of these children.

[JetsetBkk]

For the last few years there have been vans going around abducting children. One girl was abducted from inside town at the night market. I found out about it because my son told me about it, the school had talked to the children to warn them to be careful. I thought there was a thread about this a few months back here on TV. Also there was an article in the paper a while back about the government educating people to not sell their children. Maybe it was a weird dream I had, since no one here seems to recall any of this. For sure its not something us parents want to dwell on(most parents anyways).

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30032123

Kidnap gangs a real danger to youths, parents warned

Labour Protection and Welfare Department chief Padungsak Thephasdin na Ayutthaya Wednesday warned parents nationwide of kidnapping gangs during the school break.

Seven hundred and seventy five children under 18 have gone missing in the past three years and most disappeared during the summer break according to the Royal Thai Police report, he said.

Last year alone, 82 children were reported missing and from last October to this March a further 14 children "had disappeared", he added.

[tijnebijn]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

He probably does without knowing it perhaps .

near my wifes shop are some go go bars , or karaoke bars or whatever

you call them , hearing them speak bad Thai .

my wifes insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheared their

conversations while eating some noodle soup .

They are the ones who are ' selling their daugthers ' , probably also for worse destinations .

Very sad happening , and very dangerous .

Don't think there are much Thais doing this practise , like one poster said they are overspoiling them .

No, I'm sorry but is absolutely incorrect. Not too long ago, it was Thais who were openly selling children until there was international pressure to change, and Thai law was amended as well as educational policy to allow longer free education. Although now there is a lot of consensual trafficking to Japan, it started as forced or deceptive trafficking. I wouldn't say that Thais have stopped selling their children, only that the process has changed and become more underground.

Hilltribe people do not have ID cards or a national identity, and are therefore stateless and cannot go to school, have a residential address, or even legally travel outside of a very restricted radius without risk of arrest. You can be sure that Thais and others are most definitely involved in the trafficking of these children.

What is incorrect . I have no doubt that Thais are involved .

What I was trying to say is that at least here in Chiangmai all or many of those

girls working in those karaoke bars are hilltribe girls , as young as 14

I was told , don't think you can say this is not true .

About trafficking , ofcourse I do not have a clue who those are or where they come from ,

I assumed the hilltribe girls are probably an easy target for those scumbags , who

definetely are Thais .

I just told this story for what I see with my own eyes around here .

Sorry if I misquoted my statement in a wrong manner .

[kat]

For the last few years there have been vans going around abducting children. One girl was abducted from inside town at the night market. I found out about it because my son told me about it, the school had talked to the children to warn them to be careful. I thought there was a thread about this a few months back here on TV. Also there was an article in the paper a while back about the government educating people to not sell their children. Maybe it was a weird dream I had, since no one here seems to recall any of this. For sure its not something us parents want to dwell on(most parents anyways).

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30032123

Kidnap gangs a real danger to youths, parents warned

Labour Protection and Welfare Department chief Padungsak Thephasdin na Ayutthaya Wednesday warned parents nationwide of kidnapping gangs during the school break.

Seven hundred and seventy five children under 18 have gone missing in the past three years and most disappeared during the summer break according to the Royal Thai Police report, he said.

Last year alone, 82 children were reported missing and from last October to this March a further 14 children "had disappeared", he added.

Thanks for that, JetsetBKK. I remember talk of these gangs when I was in LOS, and followed one case of a schoolgirls who lied to their parents and created a hoax. I hadn't heard further "official" evidence that it was real, so thanks.

What is the date of that article?

[kat]

Well, I live close to Udon, which is not exactly "real" Thailand, but I go once a week or so to the outlaws, and its about as basic as it gets in Issan.

No, they do not sell their kids, they love them and spoil them to death.

There is still , sadly , the cross border trade from Lao and Burma, is this what you mean?

He probably does without knowing it perhaps .

near my wifes shop are some go go bars , or karaoke bars or whatever

you call them , hearing them speak bad Thai .

my wifes insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheared their

conversations while eating some noodle soup .

They are the ones who are ' selling their daugthers ' , probably also for worse destinations .

Very sad happening , and very dangerous .

Don't think there are much Thais doing this practise , like one poster said they are overspoiling them .

No, I'm sorry but is absolutely incorrect. Not too long ago, it was Thais who were openly selling children until there was international pressure to change, and Thai law was amended as well as educational policy to allow longer free education. Although now there is a lot of consensual trafficking to Japan, it started as forced or deceptive trafficking. I wouldn't say that Thais have stopped selling their children, only that the process has changed and become more underground.

Hilltribe people do not have ID cards or a national identity, and are therefore stateless and cannot go to school, have a residential address, or even legally travel outside of a very restricted radius without risk of arrest. You can be sure that Thais and others are most definitely involved in the trafficking of these children.

What is incorrect . I have no doubt that Thais are involved .

What I was trying to say is that at least here in Chiangmai all or many of those

girls working in those karaoke bars are hilltribe girls , as young as 14

I was told , don't think you can say this is not true .

About trafficking , ofcourse I do not have a clue who those are or where they come from ,

I assumed the hilltribe girls are probably an easy target for those scumbags , who

definetely are Thais .

I just told this story for what I see with my own eyes around here .

Sorry if I misquoted my statement in a wrong manner .

No worries Tijnebijn, I just wanted to emphasize that it is not only hilltribe people engaged in this practice.

[JetsetBkk]

What is the date of that article?

I'm pretty sure it's over 6 months old but can't find a date for it on the web site - the only date they show is today's date, which is irrelevant. They should really date each article when it's published and not change it. Very sloppy web site design.

[yorkman]

What is incorrect . I have no doubt that Thais are involved .

What I was trying to say is that at least here in Chiangmai all or many of those

girls working in those karaoke bars are hilltribe girls , as young as 14

I was told , don't think you can say this is not true ......

I assumed the hilltribe girls are probably an easy target for those scumbags , who

definetely are Thais ......

I just told this story for what I see with my own eyes around here .....

Ahh well we don't see that here, but just do a subsitute for "Lao" and same same..

Like yourself I am trying to address lawling's original question as best as I can with what I see, not what happened in the past. or what I think might be happening.

Back to the original question, and Kat touched on one of the reasons. There a certainly many displaced groups in Thailand. On the Burma (Myanmar... whatever) border there are many who are doubtless being exploited through coercion or economic necessity. Its easy to focus on girls, but it's all ages and sexes.

Likewise here in Issan, particularly since the relationship between Laos and Thailand warmed up, the days of them seeking refugee status are effectively over, they won't get Thai Citizenship etc as happened in the past. But they are certainly here in large numbers illegally, either through being fooled, coercion or economic necessity (I gave an example above). There can be no doubt its organised. There was a case a year or two ago locally where 40 or so Lao girls working in the bars were rounded up by some sort of police squad from Bangkok, much to the apparent displeasure of the local police. Inside a month they say it was business as usual. They are all not just strolling over the Friendship Bridge

The original question was about kidnapping or selling though. Just so its not my farang ignorance or naivety showing I just asked my wife this evening. She works in a very large school, and comes from a pretty remote village originally, and I normally get all the tales, positive and negative about "happenings". It's normally "yes dear ".

She actually looked at me like I had lost the plot a bit at first, and then said maybe, but she had not heard of it for years.

If it's happening, then as suggested above, it must be well underground.

[JetsetBkk]

She actually looked at me like I had lost the plot a bit at first, and then said maybe, but she had not heard of it for years.

If it's happening, then as suggested above, it must be well underground.

Perhaps you could ask her to comment on this newspaper article: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30032123

[LaoPo]

Don't know about kidnapping but selling of own children was (and probably still is) happening.

My (ex)-wife and I were offered a baby when we had a plate of fried rice during a Klong tour, right in Bangkok. The Thai lady fancied some jewelry of my wife, walked to the back of the small klong-sided store/house and came back with a baby in her arms, pushed the baby in my wife's arms and pointed she wanted the jewelry in exchange for the baby....easy as that.

I have to say that this particular Thai woman was VERY persisting....

True story.

LaoPo

[yorkman]

She actually looked at me like I had lost the plot a bit at first, and then said maybe, but she had not heard of it for years.

If it's happening, then as suggested above, it must be well underground.

Perhaps you could ask her to comment on this newspaper article: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30032123

Will do, wait until she has stopped nattering outside with her 2 gossip mates!

[SpacemanSpliff]

Isn't the Sin Sot a 'sale' of the daughter to the man?

Can very well be.

Though you get money twice; once as an advance on earnings when a daughter goes off to work in a bar, massage parlour or karaoke, and then you cash again when someone is crazy enough to marry her.

One girl was abducted from inside town at the night market. I found out about it because my son told me about it, the school had talked to the children to warn them to be careful.Maybe it was a weird dream I had, since no one here seems to recall any of this.

Ok, can we at least make an *attempt* to be factual.. Of course people get kidnapped for ransom, etc. Crime is crime. I think the Original Poster is interested to learn if this is in any way endemic/structural.

When I hear stories about people selling their children I always wonder why they would want to do that since it would be much more profitable on the long run to have a child who go away to work but send money home.

"Sell" is a word that 'sells' when you're an NGO, because it makes peopel think it's basic slavery. Realistically it's much more likely to be an advance on earnins, i.e. a loan that's paid back from the girl's earnings. Don't only think sexual services here, it also happens for maids, construction workers.. you name it. It's called 'debt bondage'.

... hearing them speak bad Thai . my wifes insists they are not Thai but hilltribe people , who she overheared their conversations while eating some noodle soup .

Do I take it from this that hilltribe people are not regarded as Thais?

You mean in a legal sense or a colloquial sense? In a legal sense, many are Thai, in that they have a Thai ID card; they're Thai citizens and in that sense just like everyone else. Many others have an 'in between' status, a yellow ID card that allows them to remain in Thailand indefinitely, but only in the province of issue (unless they get a permit). And then some arrived from Chine/Burma/Laos/etc recently and are effectively illegal. When a hilltribe person is born in Thailand it's usually possible to become a Thai citizen, though the bureaucracy involved may scare off a lot of people from pursuing it.

Now, in a colloquial sense, in the North, no they're not. Heck, Northerners don't even call THEMSELVES Thai; they call themselves 'Khon Muang'. Thais are central Thais, southerners perhaps. If you go to an ethnically mixed area like Mae Hong Son, just about everyone is something else... Thai, Muang, Jiin Haw, Akha, Lisu, Lahu, Shan (Thai Yai), Lao, Farang.. you name it, they got it. In that sense it's not strange at all to note someone by background, which very often isn't Thai.

About trafficking , ofcourse I do not have a clue who those are or where they come from ,

I assumed the hilltribe girls are probably an easy target for those scumbags , who

definetely are Thais

Why are they by definition scumbags, or Thai, for that matter? Often the agent is of the same background as the migrant. You need to be in a position of trust to 'sell' the idea of working in a different country / lifestyle /etc. It's exactly the same as Thai agents persuading Thai girls to go work in the Middle East,, etc.

[SpacemanSpliff]

My (ex)-wife and I were offered a baby when we had a plate of fried rice during a Klong tour, right in Bangkok. The Thai lady fancied some jewelry of my wife, walked to the back of the small klong-sided store/house and came back with a baby in her arms, pushed the baby in my wife's arms and pointed she wanted the jewelry in exchange for the baby....easy as that.

Metally challenged person?

Because realistically it's kind of a hard sell doing it this way.. You need to supply a birth certificate, set up a structure for adoption/custody, OR the seller would need to help with a fake birth certificate. You can't just unload a baby on to a tourist as if it was a woodcarving or something. So.. mentally challeged person.