Was Thaskin More Corrupt Than Previous Governments?

[Jai Dee]

Some off-topic and flame posts have been deleted from this thread.

[bendejo]

No mater how you spell it, corruption is corruption!

Sure, but then there are degrees.

Everybody takes or (perhaps more discreetly) makes things work in their own interest.

You can have cases like Indonesia, where nearly all of it gets pocketed, but then there's places like Malaysia where they leave enough to make it look like something is being accomplished.

I'm talking about money in the public coffers here.

Then there are the grab-bags. My guess is most of that tsunami aid money ended up in Swiss banks. On the other hand, the US flies in a cargo plane filled will bottled water and the total cost is US$100,000. Some entities do quite well when these things happen.

Next time there is an earthquake in Indonesia and there is an influx of disaster relief, with the announcer saying "food is being distributed to the victims" look closely at the images on the screen. You'll see the people have only bags of crisps or other junk food.

Brazil is another example -- the guy who leaves something behind after taking his cut is elevated to hero status.

But anyway, to comment on Khun T selling the telco: yes, it is unpatriotic to sell part of your own country's infrastructure, especially by the PM. The profits go to the other country, as well as the jobs (or at least some of them). For more details on how this works read Mahatma Ghandi's stuff. A money-making entity differs from a piece of property or an appliance.

[Beardog]

The scale to measure Toxin's corruption is streached to the maximum and unfortunately the pointer broke

So, the corruption is beyond any magnitude known

As reported yesterday, his government cost the country to lost some 180 billion baht?? What about those unseen and untraceable?

Just look at the reported wealth of his whole family before he took office and after he was kicked out after the coup. And that is what was reported. What about those that was not in his / or other family name? Those that was transfered and safely hidden overseas etc

No other former or future government can match that amount of money 'stolen' from Thailand!

Or how many other buried pipes awaiting his return!&probably in every country he has been in.

[Beardog]

he was as corrupt as they come ,but so is bill gates and all the big business men in the world ,nobody gets the kind of money they have by being mr nice guy ,he made a lot of money for himself and his country .

Yea but at least bill gates really does give back & is very generous helping people less fortunate........He probably would not have made a good politician.I don't think giving back more than you can write off is a widely used method in The U.S.Believe me it isn't that I love the guy...just the charity part.

[Beardog]

Did you notice the photo of the military helicopter flying very low over Chiang Mai dropping leaflets reminding the voters to vote? A bit intimidating given their history of opening fire on the Thai people when the military decides it needs to save the nation.

That must have been the fliers with 100 baht stapled to it & a voucher for a 40 baht bottle of whiskey if you vote for.......

Just tryin to lighten it up. We often are quick to flame other posters & attack their character.It really isn't a bad thing to have a good stimulating as well as interesting topic to talk about. I know I have let people under my skin when I first started posting & now enjoy relaxing & having a good time listening as well.

There is no doubt in my mind this countries corrupt as all of our home countries are!We have just found better & more ingenious ways of doing the deed. One thing for sure it sure would restore some confidence in the Thaksin's profile if he were to pay some taxes & really make sure it got to the poor! more The big question is how this affects the Thai's as well as us expats. We are all in the same boat-only difference we can take a lose leave our assets behind & go home-start over. We all have to feel for the Thai people. most are fortunate to have gone to school till 11 or 12 & have to fend for their selves. They are the ones with the hand stacked against them.

Look at the choices Will I vote for the handsome man or the one I know has been caught lying -maybe he changed.

no one has posted anything that stupid as I can tell, you would get the same diverse answers if you were in a university.No?

And I am proud of my girl for voting & listening to at least the redirric & voted for the team that didn't win, but seemed like they at least had some good ideas.

And Sunrise I am sorry this had nothing to do with your post, but to get us to lighten up a bit.Back to our discussion!!!

[tracker]

Hi,

spacemanspiff, unfortunately, not enough said;

your saying:

"Do you realize what you're saying is kind of like saying that if I own a house in the UK and I sell it to an Irish person, I am then un-patriotic?"

so you are comparing yourself with the prime-minister of a country?

This is exactly why i wrote my post. You sound like many business people around me, who have the same idea as you. So, its your money, so you can do what you want with it....

Well, if you represent over 60 million people and a party which says that thai people love thai people/ways/etc. your big selling and no tax-paying is as un-thai and egoistic as possible.

Yes, it was a great move, from a business point of view, but then again, money and business is not a country, it's people who are. I saw him trying to run the country as a company. In a company, orders come from above, and people have to follow. The people you not need, you fire. Well, that is not an option in a country...

and, so it is ok to sell to an asean member, even if that member, by the obtaining of the company has the possibility to follow all atm transactions of that country? satellite communications? Seems like selling your soul to me.

[HobbsTheFerociousTiger]

I think Thaksin always ran on the premise of being a 'CEO-PM' and he's very much lived up to that style. Hey if it works with enough voters, all the more power to him.

[Ricardo]

I think Thaksin always ran on the premise of being a 'CEO-PM' and he's very much lived up to that style. Hey if it works with enough voters, all the more power to him.

Until the external Board-members fire the CEO for losing the plot ...

[OlBlackEyes]

So... you think the Thaksin government was more corrupt than, say, Chavalit and Banharn's ? The OP was such of an almost rhetorical nature, so obviously the discussion swiftly expanded on to adjacent territory, such as the present government.

The foremost candidate for non-corrupt leadership is probably Chuan's government, which probably was less corrupt at *government* level, however it was so inert and ineffective that it did little to counter corruption in all other levels of society, which remained rife.

Again, may I just refer you to http://www.transparency.org/ , there's historical data there.

Thailand's ranking:

1998 : 61

1999 : 68

2000 : 60

2001 : 61 <-- the year TRT won their first landslide election victory and Dr Thaksin became PM.

2002 : 64

2003 : 70

2004 : 64

2005 : 59

2006 : 63 <-- towards the end of this year the military coup happened.

2007 : 84 WORST ranking in recent history.

I fail to see how it makes any difference whether Thailand is #59 or #84 on the list...

Does it really matter whether you're buried under 59 tons of &lt;deleted&gt; or 84 tons of &lt;deleted&gt;??

[jasreeve17]

So... you think the Thaksin government was more corrupt than, say, Chavalit and Banharn's ? The OP was such of an almost rhetorical nature, so obviously the discussion swiftly expanded on to adjacent territory, such as the present government.

The foremost candidate for non-corrupt leadership is probably Chuan's government, which probably was less corrupt at *government* level, however it was so inert and ineffective that it did little to counter corruption in all other levels of society, which remained rife.

Again, may I just refer you to http://www.transparency.org/ , there's historical data there.

Thailand's ranking:

1998 : 61

1999 : 68

2000 : 60

2001 : 61 <-- the year TRT won their first landslide election victory and Dr Thaksin became PM.

2002 : 64

2003 : 70

2004 : 64

2005 : 59

2006 : 63 <-- towards the end of this year the military coup happened.

2007 : 84 WORST ranking in recent history.

I fail to see how it makes any difference whether Thailand is #59 or #84 on the list...

Does it really matter whether you're buried under 59 tons of &lt;deleted&gt; or 84 tons of &lt;deleted&gt;??

It does if you are trying to dig your way out, or trying to measure how much has fallen, as per the OP's question.

My thoughts are that Mr T was very good at corruption and sometimes helped the country out too.

The governments before Mr T were good at corruption, but never helped anyone out other than themselves.

The army lot and their friends don't need to be corrupt because they deem that they own everything anyway.

I'd suggest that Mr T is the least bad of a truly awful bunch. (That doen't make him good though.)

[sriracha john]

Debating the quoted stats of a banned member in order to draw some conclusions to another banned member's OP seems a rather futile effort...

but nevertheless... if we define the "more corrupt" in terms of the baht figure amount in corruption, then it seems that Thaksin is the hands-down winner.

Edited December 25, 2007 by sriracha john

[jayjayjayjay]

Debating the quoted stats of a banned member in order to draw some conclusions to another banned member's OP seems a rather futile effort...

but nevertheless... if we define the "more corrupt" in terms of the baht figure amount in corruption, then it seems that Thaksin is the hands-down winner.

How to define corruption, who know's, so I asked "one"!!

I dined with Montri Danphaiboon (Chavalit Yongchaiyudh administration, Minister of University Affairs 1997 then Minister of Labour and Social Welfare) last night, and fired a salvo at him over this very question.

In his words, until the days of Taksin, "Ministers" had a free hand to the public coffers encouraged by the PM. He freely admitted as much to say it was well established, to make it to ministerial level cost a lot, but the returns made it all worth the commitment. Guilt!!! none what-so-ever. So I went on to ask about the Chuan administration that followed his time in power with Chavalit, his reply, same system, same game, different people and maybe managed a little more subtle, BUT Chuan not party to taking money himself, just not interested, but could Chuan stop it, or did he actively persue wrong doers, "no" ......... and to onto Taksin... he said the whole game plan changed.

To get elected into the Chavalit government he had to foot a significant sum of the election cost, some help from Pee Jiew (Chavalit). He had to feed money to P. Jiew throught the corse of his Ministerial posts, he would not say how much. So asked the question how things were different with Taksin. He said Taksin footed the bill for election costs, made a clear message to Ministers that corruption (fingers in the public coffers) would not be tolerated, if caught taking funds they would be "removed" from the party or coalition (but not placed at the mercy of courts, or the Auditor General as Taksin hated Juravan). Asked if he really believed this, his relpy is it happen with numerous members (one being Sanoh) he thought were close to Taksin. Asked why this was not clearer to the public..... he could not answer that question.

Final question, which governments he felt were inherantly more corrupt in recent history in terms of "money politics".. his answer:

1 Chatichat

2 Chavalit

3. Banharn

4. Chuan

5. Taksin

6. Anand P.

http://www.cabinet.thaigov.go.th/eng/pm_22.htm

[scorecard]

Possibly that's because there were less NGOs around when the Royal Thai Army under Genersal Suchinda, then PM, slaughtered people wholesale in downtown Bangkok? And not drug mafia or Muslim terorrists, but regular Thais putting their life on the line for democracy?

Just asking.

And speaking of blacklists or other lists from NGOs and the like, you DID notice that Thailand had a bit of a free-fall in the press-freedom ranking, general freedom ranking, and yes, corruption ranking since the military takeover?

And the latest word is on SPEND on military toys.. Hey the dollar is cheap! So much for sufficiency I guess. Possibly sufficiency applies mostly to poor people and not the military?

Unfortunately one almost expect a Junta (and their puppet gownerments) to behave that way.

Mr. Taksin was elected, and then ended up on the lists.

That was what I meant.

rgds

You wrote ".....Mr. Taksin was elected, ....".

Sorry, cant agree. Thaksin bought elections is more accurate.

And please told tell me, "But he's not the first to do this...." Its' true that vote buying is rampant and has been for a long time in Thailand. That doesn't mean it's therefore OK!

Eventually someone will take some action to try to stop it. That's fine with me.

[spysee]

He had to go, he was corrupt like a dog. It doesnt matter where he ranks with previous PM's. Thailand did the right thing and need to keep changing PM's until they find the right one.

The current PM I thought was going to do a good job. He is a nice guy etc but just doesnt have the leadership qualities, he is more of a follower.

The more Thailand changes there government, the more chances of getting a decent one in power.

I don't like Thaksin for a few reasons and glad he is out of the country. But there are probably alot more corrupt PM's then him, he just got caught and other PM's just know how to hide it better.

[Ulysses G.]

You wrote ".....Mr. Taksin was elected, ....".

Sorry, cant agree. Thaksin bought elections is more accurate.

And please told tell me, "But he's not the first to do this...." Its' true that vote buying is rampant and has been for a long time in Thailand. That doesn't mean it's therefore OK!

How about, if the election was done fairly, he would have won by a landslide!

[scorecard]

You wrote ".....Mr. Taksin was elected, ....".

Sorry, cant agree. Thaksin bought elections is more accurate.

And please told tell me, "But he's not the first to do this...." Its' true that vote buying is rampant and has been for a long time in Thailand. That doesn't mean it's therefore OK!

How about, if the election was done fairly, he would have won by a landslide!

Sorry, don't agree.

[Deke]

Corruption is an endemic part of politics in Thailand and, to a more or lesser extent, pretty much all of Asia. In my opinion, Taksin's downfall was not the result of his government's corruption but of his refusal to "play the game" in the traditional sense. A lot of people were pushed off of the gravy train when he came into power.

Other posters have talked about his greed. I think this might explain part of his unwillingness to "share the wealth" but there are other, deeper issues that are being brought to light in the current political instability.

There is probably an opportunity here for Thailand to make some radical changes to modernize their political system but, of course, it won't take advantage of that opportunity.

[Pierrot]

How about, if the election was done fairly, he would have won by a landslide!

Sorry, don't agree.

The problem is, agree or not, facts are, everytime Thaksin contested an election, he won by a landslide.

He is the only undisputed leader Thailand had for ... pick up your date, I wasn't probably born at that time!

Now we have the typical pre-Thaksin government. No real majority, conflict of interest at all levels. Lot of talks, lot of money spent, nothing achieved.

Do you think it's an improvement ? The problem is, as a a believer in democracy, I have to accept you're entitled to your opinion. But don't be surprised if I don't agree