Had The Motor Converted From Diesel To Lpg

[intumult]

I had the motor converted from Diesel to LPG. Picked up the car yesterday (Friday), it took them 2 days to complete and thought I would give my first impressions after 300 or so kilometres driving.

First the garage - 35k kilos or so North of Bangkok - I would NOT recommend them to anyone.

The workmanship left a few things not finished correctly (air filter clips not tightened down, air filter badly attached to body, scuff marks to front bumper and scratches to bodywork, absolute minimal amount of LPG in the tank and hardly enough petrol to get to the nearest garage). The gear lever was left with no cover at all, just a badly cut hole around the base. There was no box for the LPG tank either - but that is a moot point.

Apart from that there are thieves working on the installation. 1 major item was stolen - was my fault for forgetting I had left it tucked out of sight behind the back seat, though they had no reason to be looking there in the first place as it was not warranted during the installation. Other things they took were petty. A music CD taken from inside the cd player, chewing gum, small baht change.

So, apart from what I did not get and what I lost, here is what I did get for my money....

2.5 litre Toyota Twin Cam 24 valve engine and 4 speed auto gearbox. (strange as I was supposed to get a different make of engine) but cannot complain as Toyota engines are good. 75 kilo LPG tank and fittings.

One thing I would definitely change if I was doing a conversion now!! I would have 2 smaller LPG tanks fitted under the car than one big tank. Leaves more room and less unsightly. It most likely costs a bit more but I feel it would be worth it. (found out about this when I was filling up at an LPG station)

Cost 58,000 baht.

I was given 20,000 baht for the original engine from a Thai friend (same as the garage offered) and this dropped the conversion price to 38,000 baht.

The car can be started and run entirely from LPG with no need to use petrol at all as long as LPG is available. Has override switch to make it so.

I drove 200 kilometres with the original diesel engine in the back and fuel costs were 1.7 baht a kilometre. Not bad considering the weight of the engine and gearbox in the back of the motor. Spent most of the time doing 100/110 kilometres per hour.

Kick down on the auto-box is very good.

Driving at 110 kph had plenty of power in reserve.

One niggle - for me - about the auto box. It will not achieve top gear until reaching 110 kph and then it changes up. So, at 80 - 110 kph the revs are quite high but once in top gear the revs drop to 2,500 rpm at 110 kph instead of over 3,000+ rpm for the 90+ kph.

Plenty of people who own mini-buses and a couple of mechanics I know have looked at the conversion and are happy with what they have seen, apart from the unfinished work mentioned earlier.

Some kind soul pressed the buttons on the digital box inside the car and set the car to run on petrol instead of LPG . That resulted in a minor problem of me wondering <deleted> had happened to the petrol I had put in when the low petrol indicator came on on the dash. LOL.

Takes about 5 minutes to fill the LPG tank.

Not sure what else I can say, but if anyone has any questions I will try to answer them from my limited experience to date. As I do more 'normal' driving - with no engine in the back I will get an average cost per kilometre and post it later.

It is strange to go to auto g/box after driving a manual for 30+ years as I keep wanting to press the clutch pedal and change gear

On the whole, I am happy enough so far, but with hindsight I would have chosen a different garage but with the language difficulties as they are it is a case of take what you can get and learn from the experience and hope others do too.

[Totster]

One thing I learned after driving an auto for 6 months back in the UK is that if you have your "foot down" (giving it some welly, ramping it etc..) it will change up at higher revs, to change up at lower revs, take your foot off the accelerator slightly and it should change up at lower revs.

Hope that makes sense.

totster

[monty]

Have you really counted the gearshifts?

110kph seems awfully fast to go to top gear!

On my car it goes to top gear at 60 kph if not accelerating. When I reach around 100 kph, the lock up engages, which kind of feels like an extra gear since revs drop by about 400 rpm.

The lock up overrides the oil clutch (or whatever it is called), so the wheels are coupled directly to the engine (through the gears) taking away the hydrolic slip and increasing fuel economy...

P.S. as a reference, what was the per km cost when driving on diesel?

[intumult]

edit ....Was an oops (here) am tired and hot

Edited December 22, 2007 by intumult

[intumult]

4 baht a kilometre on litre on diesel.

Revs drop by 1,000 at 110 kmph. I will double check the gear changes next time out.

It is weird enough to be driving an auto )

[Upcountry]

What a pisser, getting ripped off like that!

I left my car for wash/polish. Hid the X lug tool I have from an old van a long time ago in the spare tire cavity. They didn't remove that, but they did remove a weighted rubbish bin that fits over the drive shaft hump in the back seating area. They said it was given by mistake to a different customer, they tried to give me a different colored one.

If its not tied down and they find it, these workers will take it. Probably a fact of life here. I had gas stolen out of my tank when the car stayed overnight at an upholsterer.

Question about the LPG tank and suspension. Someone told me that the LPG tank may make the car ride higher in the front, so that the headlights will shine differently at night (standard brightness will look like brights, etc.). I assume this will affect handling as well. The car in question was a Honda Civic or City. It probably depends on the car and suspension.

How much does the tank weigh empty and full?

UC

[monty]

What a pisser, getting ripped off like that!

I left my car for wash/polish. Hid the X lug tool I have from an old van a long time ago in the spare tire cavity. They didn't remove that, but they did remove a weighted rubbish bin that fits over the drive shaft hump in the back seating area. They said it was given by mistake to a different customer, they tried to give me a different colored one.

If its not tied down and they find it, these workers will take it. Probably a fact of life here. I had gas stolen out of my tank when the car stayed overnight at an upholsterer.

Question about the LPG tank and suspension. Someone told me that the LPG tank may make the car ride higher in the front, so that the headlights will shine differently at night (standard brightness will look like brights, etc.). I assume this will affect handling as well. The car in question was a Honda Civic or City. It probably depends on the car and suspension.

How much does the tank weigh empty and full?

UC

I doubt the car will be sitting low in the back because of the tank weight...LPG tanks are not that heavy, and LPG weighs about 0.5 kg/liter (as opposed to roughly .75 kg/liter for petrol)...

They probably mentioned CNG, since the tanks used for those installations are very heavy, due to the very high storage pressure of CNG...

[paulsmithson]

Ran on Lpg in the UK on a Lexus Soarer. The saving over the three years that I had that car more than paid for the new cylinder head when the valves burned ---LPG burns at far higher temperatures than Petrol.

To be honest unless you do megga miles ( I did )-then an lpg conversion is just not worth the cost!

You do lose at least ten percent power.

The burn is cleaner.

Engine wear apart from the cylinder head is vastly reduced.

Not worth doing these days unless you have a big engine( well above two litre) .

Someone mentioned the weight of the tanks and they are correct---the lpg tanks are very very heavy walled- about quarter of an inch thick-----compare this to a standard petrol tank.

Miles per litre is usually about half of petrol----only saving is in the lower costs of lpg.

[Crossy]

Did your 'garage' correctly (or bother to) calibrate your speedo with the new box? If not you could be being misled as to the mileage covered (high or low).

On a related front, has anyone got any experience of the LPG / Diesel conversions that retain the diesel engine (it still uses diesel, the LPG apparently improves the burn efficiency)? I've seen a couple of outfits in the UK but nothing in LoS.

[Badbanker]

Did they also change the diff ratio from your diesel car ratio (max 4k revs) to Petrol/gas ratio (max 6k revs)!

If you don't change the diff ratio the engine will run about 25% faster than it should!

BB

[INTJ]

The 2500cc Toyota (1JZ-GE) engine should have 2 switches by the gearbox, "MANU" for overdrive, and one "PWR", this will mean the car holds the gear for longer before changing up, a "sport mode" if you like, you might want to check the wiring for these switches. Also change the transmission fluid if it hasn't already been done (which I doubt).

Hope you got the engine with the black cover not all silver.

Cheers.

[monty]

Ran on Lpg in the UK on a Lexus Soarer. The saving over the three years that I had that car more than paid for the new cylinder head when the valves burned ---LPG burns at far higher temperatures than Petrol.

Did you have a "valve saver" oil injector installed? With those your valvls should last as long as when driving on petrol!

You do lose at least ten percent power.

Only with the old style vacuum controlled system. With the new high tech electronically (with oxygen sensor) injection systems the power loss is more like 5%.

Miles per litre is usually about half of petrol----only saving is in the lower costs of lpg.

Huh??? If you lose 10% power, you'll roughly increase your consumption by 10%. It does so on my aging Volvo. It'll run about 8km to the liter on petrol, and a tad over 7 km on LPG. In Thailand this works out to 4.1 Baht/km on petrol against 1.4 Baht/km or a saving of about 2.7 Baht/km.

At a conservative 15,000 km/year you'll save 40,000 Baht, which is more then the most expensive electronically controlled petrol to LPG conversion.

I drive around 40,000 km/year, so I got my investment back in 3 months, and I save close to 9000 Baht every month. Pretty nice pocket change!

I would say that it is worth it for everybody doing over 15,000 km/year for bigger engined cars, 20,000 km/year for the smaller engined Japanese cars (here in Thailand of course, don't know the price difference between LPG and Petrol in Europe).

Do note that in Thailand no extra road taxes etc are incurred when driving on LPG!

[Lancashirelad]

Many good points mentioned here about the apparent late change up speed.

As said, with an auto, lift off the gas pedal to allow it to change up.

Very good point about the "Sport" mode switch which increases the change up rev points.

Some (older?) auto boxes have some vacuum pipes attached. If there is a problem with any of these (kinked, blocked, not connected) will play havoc with change up points.

Sounds like it needs throwing back at the garage for all the bits & pieces to be finished off.

[intumult]

After trying - and failing - to add to this topic with the 'page cannot be displayed' popping up, I am trying again to do so.

I have now run the converted car for a while and have noted the following points....

The ride height of the Mitsu is different as the petrol engine weighs less. The steering is also different as is the road holding/handling. Cornering can be a bit scary LOL.

These can be corrected quite easily by a quick visit to a local garage, at little cost - as I have already confirmed after talking to them.

After the first week the engine would stall and stop in the middle of the road or while turning at a junction, leaving me with little or no steering or brakes and also left the car prone to a rear end accident or another driver simply driving into me as it would happen with no warning.

Seems this was caused by a lack of LPG to the engine. As the engine was OK before that I have to summise it was down to dust/dirt in the system. After a call to the garage that did the installation they asked me to take the car to a local garage and for them to clean the system.

Took 10 minutes and all is OK again now in that respect.

Economy wise I am still running at 1.7 Baht a kilometer and that includes both town and country driving.

Before the conversion it was about 3.5 Baht kilometer on a good run so I have halved the running costs.

A return trip to BKK on diesel would cost 1,600 Baht @ 28 baht a litre and near 480 kilometers distance. (noting here that diesel is now over 30 Baht a litre here).

Acceleration is much quicker with the Toyota engine, though, I still do NOT like auto gearboxes!!

My previous note about the gearbox changing at 110 kph. You were right in your previous posting that it does go into 'overdrive' at that speed and changes back when down to abt 85 kph. (Not used to auto boxes here). Top gear is at abt 50kph.

The LPG tank is situated behind the cab so does not make a lot of difference except that I would have preferred twin tanks beneath the body and attached to the chassis. This would mean 2*30 kilo tanks instead of one 75 kilo tank and thus reducing the distance between fill ups.

To fill the tank takes about 5 minutes at a cost of 350 Baht and the satnav is helpful in finding LPG stations.

Overall....

The workmanship could have been a LOT better.

They obviously do not take a lot of care over the bodywork (scratches noted).

Not covering the LPG tank - meaning I had to have that done myself.

The air cleaner not attached correctly.

The new auto stick looks odd and not covered or blended in with the console - had that re-covered and now looks better.

The car is quicker, quieter and smoother to drive. Starts on gas all the time. More economical.

With the little niggles sorted out I will be a lot happier but I did not expect a totally trouble free conversion. And with oil expected to reach $100 a barrel soon and maybe higher, the cost will pay for itself in 1 year at the current level of distance I drive.

I have no way of knowing if there is any power loss as I cannot compare between the old 2.8 diesel and the installed 2.5 Toyota petrol engine.

[percy2]

i

To fill the tank takes about 5 minutes at a cost of 350 Baht and the satnav is helpful in finding LPG stations.

Which satnav/maps do you use?

Cheers

[monty]

To fill the tank takes about 5 minutes at a cost of 350 Baht and the satnav is helpful in finding LPG stations.

Interested as well, could be extremely handy having LPG stations on the gps maps!!!

[Plus]

Intumult, do you know which engine exactly they put in your truck? Does it have a turbo? Did they offer a choice?

You say acceleration has improved - is it due to higher torque or is it because the engine is happy to rev up?

Does anyone know if it's possible to get 2JZ engine, for example, or if it's possible to convert a turbo engine to LPG at all?

There are several implications - more torque at lower revs, for example. Or more engine wear if it's forced to work harder to move so much metal.

[intumult]

Satnav.... I use the Garmin Nuvi 200.

When I went to BKK over New Year and had no idea at all where there would be LPG garages, I simply looked at the satnav and found them dotted around the place

The engine is a 2.5 litre Toyota Twin cam 16 valve. No turbo. (Naturally the engine - now being petrol - feels smoother and accellerates faster than the old 2.8 litre, non turbo mitsu DIESEL engine .... LOL, good for mowing down those motorcyclists who insist on sitting in front of you at traffic lights).

I will have more details on the engine sometime today - I hope - as the paperwork for the engine is being delivered so I can notify the relevant authorities to the engine change.

They did offer different engines and sizes starting at 2 litre through to 3 litre with various engine models too. Also they offer different 'grades' of engine from 60% to 90% quality. I took the 90% on offer. It does affect the price too.

Same with gearboxes. Manuals add about 8k Baht to the cost.

HTH

Edited January 12, 2008 by intumult

[Plus]

Thanks, waiting for details...