Public Displays Of Affection--between Gay Couples Or Any Couple

[cm-happy]

When my b/f and I go out for the evening to an entertainment venue. talking about bars or clubs, not restaurants or theatres. If we go to a gay bar He'll lean over and give me a little peck on the cheek and me the same to him. No one bats and eyelash since mostly gay clientel.

Clubs, however, with mixed crowd, I always initiate, b/f some times. No looks of disapproval from those around us or the staff or entertainers. I'm a creature of habit and usually go to the same places so the staff and entertainers know us well. Sometimes can see a Thai straight couple see and the lady smiles, and appear to be thinking to herself, I wish my guy would do that. Or will go out with a straight Thai couple and their family for special occasions( birthdays or anniversary). The Thai husband is my b/f's best mate. At these times we both encourage the husband to show some affection towards his wife and kids. He's always quite reticent but eventually comes around, after a few drinks. Big, big smiles on the wife and kids.

So what's wrong with a little PDA? Yeah, Thai cultural taboo, but so what and when in Rome do as the Romans do. To each their own!

Never do this in a restaurant or theatre. It just seems totally inappropriate to do at such places.

Any one else exercize PDA sometimes with their partners?

[farang prince]

I wouldn't think of a public display of affection beyond holding hands or looking lovingly at my partner. And if I got amorous, my Thai ladyboy would look at me like I was crazy. My ladyboy is very traditional (it took me months to get her comfortable kissing western style instead of a Thai sniff kiss) and I respect her values. You stated "When in Rome do as the Romans do." Good advice. You are in Thailand. Do as the Thais do. When you go to Rome, feel free to pinch anyone's ass.

[cm-happy]

" Do as the Thais do. When you go to Rome, feel free to pinch anyone's ass.

I look forward to it! Imagine if Thailand adapted Roman ways. All those bruised bums

[kek]

I have no problem with "a little peck on the cheek".

What I object to is couples (gay or straight) sitting in a bar or restaurant (gay or straight) and indulging in deep, long French kisses; hands up skirts or shorts; groping and fondling, and doing this for minutes at a time, over and over again. It's as if they know the social reservations of Thailand and are showing off; challenging someone to make comment. Why can't they leave that type of truely intimate behaviour for the bedroom?

[PeaceBlondie]

I have no problem with "a little peck on the cheek".

What I object to is couples (gay or straight) sitting in a bar or restaurant (gay or straight) and indulging in deep, long French kisses; hands up skirts or shorts; groping and fondling, and doing this for minutes at a time, over and over again. It's as if they know the social reservations of Thailand and are showing off; challenging someone to make comment. Why can't they leave that type of truely intimate behaviour for the bedroom?

C'mon, kek, where besides a take-off bar/whore house would you see such a thing in Thailand? You don't see that in public in the West.

Even Thai TV (which has terrible moral displays of disrespect, violence, etc.) doesn't show mouth kissing.

[kek]

I have no problem with "a little peck on the cheek".

What I object to is couples (gay or straight) sitting in a bar or restaurant (gay or straight) and indulging in deep, long French kisses; hands up skirts or shorts; groping and fondling, and doing this for minutes at a time, over and over again. It's as if they know the social reservations of Thailand and are showing off; challenging someone to make comment. Why can't they leave that type of truely intimate behaviour for the bedroom?

C'mon, kek, where besides a take-off bar/whore house would you see such a thing in Thailand? You don't see that in public in the West.

Even Thai TV (which has terrible moral displays of disrespect, violence, etc.) doesn't show mouth kissing.

OK ... do you want a list of places I've seen such behaviour over the years? Admittedly it takes place mainly between young foreigners but I've also seen it happen when a farang has taken a boy/girl from a bar and then gone on to somewhere else. And yes, it does happen in the West - and a lot more than it does in Thailand. Try Paris, Rome, Madrid, Miami or Rio. We get sheltered from Western behaviour standards living in Thailand but unfortunately, with more ignorant tourists coming here the respecful standards of Thailand are being abused and lowered.

In the past year I've seen public displays of affection that go far beyond just a peck or holding hands in: The lobby of a 5 star hotel in Bangkok; inside shopping center coffee shops; on a river dinner boat; inside bars and on terraces of Silom Soi 4; inside gay & straight discos; at an expensive roof top bar; on the beach at Jomtien; outside benches on Pattaya Beach Road; at the airport and in two different 5* restaurants in Pattaya. And ... that's a short list without even thinking about it too much!

I remember once seeing a leaflet handed out at Don Muang airport about Thailand Do's & Don'ts and there was a paragraph about public displays of affection. Maybe this should be reprinted and handed to all foreigners when they go through passport control?

[phayao]

unfortunately, with more ignorant tourists coming here the respecful standards of Thailand are being abused and lowered.

In the past year I've seen public displays of affection that go far beyond just a peck or holding hands´

I remember once seeing a leaflet handed out at Don Muang airport about Thailand Do's & Don'ts and there was a paragraph about public displays of affection. Maybe this should be reprinted and handed to all foreigners when they go through passport control?

I feel ashamed as a "falang" when I see these PDA by westerners. I've never seen them performed by non-white tourists.

The leaflets are a good idea.

[Jingthing]

Thais are a little uptight, it wouldn't kill them to see some more PDAs. I remember my shock seeing all kinds of young men kissing each other on the streets of Buenos Aires, even though I realized most of them were straight, it still managed to usually startle me.

[Ijustwannateach]

"Normal" Thai men and women are very conservative and shy indeed, publicly. Not about homophobia, just about public face. Most flirting I do publicly is with the eyes and, if in an appropriate crowded environment where no one will be looking closely, maybe touch their arm or their back discreetly. Holding hands in the movie theatre is still allowed, of course.

"S"

[Macx]

What about goodbye hugs at the airport/bus terminals? I rarely ever see it.

[Pawpcorn]

What about goodbye hugs at the airport/bus terminals? I rarely ever see it.

Actually, in studying Thai behavior as I do... the I often see the act of saying "goodbye" completely missing. I've asked the Thais I work with about this, and they have confirmed to me... Thai's aren't big on saying goodbyes.

I don't profess to understand this completely, but I have learned that most if not ALL Thai behavior makes perfect sense... so I'm still trying to figure this one out...

Also... watch closely the "close" of a business transaction between two Thais. OFTEN you will see NOTHING being said, no gestures, no polite platitudes given... just the two participants sort of turning away, and walking away from each other.

In as I personally believe Thais are MUCH more in touch with "balance and logic" when it comes to (what I feel is the Thai's cultural specialty... that of) "socializing"!!!!

So I watch Thai social behavior... and try to learn... balance... and UN-learn my conflicting "western" behavior.

Always a student of life, for life,

Pawpcorn

[Ijustwannateach]

Not specifically about flirting, but one of the big mistakes I've noticed English-speakers making when dealing with Thais or other Asians is not taking the time to see how people are reacting. We're trained to focus on the words and respond, but what many Thais will respond to first (especially in their second language) is the tone and the stance, and it is the way they may respond first, before anything is said. A lot of damage can be done to oneself by an inability to resist projecting a bad attitude, even if nothing actually negative is said. Even if one's words are not targeted at a Thai, they may interpret sarcasm or a negative attitude as projected towards them and respond defensively.

So I find what you've noticed about the lack of a need to verbally signal "the ending" is interesting, Pawpcorn- I'll have to look for it.

[Pawpcorn]

Not specifically about flirting, but one of the big mistakes I've noticed English-speakers making when dealing with Thais or other Asians is not taking the time to see how people are reacting. We're trained to focus on the words and respond, but what many Thais will respond to first (especially in their second language) is the tone and the stance, and it is the way they may respond first, before anything is said. A lot of damage can be done to oneself by an inability to resist projecting a bad attitude, even if nothing actually negative is said. Even if one's words are not targeted at a Thai, they may interpret sarcasm or a negative attitude as projected towards them and respond defensively.

So I find what you've noticed about the lack of a need to verbally signal "the ending" is interesting, Pawpcorn- I'll have to look for it.

Well, I think the exchange of money, (following the exchange of merchandise) IS the ending... and perhaps the raw reality of that situation, in Thai - Thai... is "we're done! what else needs to be said? nothing!" We farangs are trained to give and receive platitudes at that point... but if it's NOT rude behavior, in this culture, to just be on your way... then best be just be on our way!

Easier said than done... I'm always thanking, effusely, at all conclusions, then feeling a bit like a silly farang fool, afterwards...

But then savy Thais understand and anticipate farang behavior... and cleverly respond in like.

Eh, 58 years of behavioral programming can't be undone overnight... and it's not like it's bad behavior, or TOTAL bul_l-sh*t behavior, so I don't loose any sleep over it.

{grin}

Having said THAT, I DO occasionally dream about frustrating farang - Thai encounters... this morning I was dreaming the nightmare of shopping at Lotus... holding a tall stack of paper plates in my hand (I'd found at the end of an isle) that had been rediculously priced at 1000 baht... and trying to get SOMEONE to understand that I wanted to know WHERE in the store were the main supply of other cheaper, smaller quantities of paper plates. And, in the dream, I never DID get understood... I woke up in frustration... instead!

As you surely know... it's often the simplist things that seem obvious to us... that evade Thai understanding... that can drive us crazy.

Pawpcorn

[Macx]

Good point, Pawpcorn. I agree.

They also don't hug when greeting a loved one returning after a long absence.

Once in awhile, just for kicks, I'd hug my Thai friends, young and old, guys and gals, and watch them squirm with embarrassment and glance nervously to see if strangers are looking

[cm-happy]

Good point, Pawpcorn. I agree.

They also don't hug when greeting a loved one returning after a long absence.

Once in awhile, just for kicks, I'd hug my Thai friends, young and old, guys and gals, and watch them squirm with embarrassment and glance nervously to see if strangers are looking

I disagree Macx.

One of my bEST Thai friends is a very macho and straight, Thai Army ranger. The ones that parachute out of helicopters and such. Anyway the guys a Major and we don't see each other too frequently. He's sometimes away in the jungle looking for drug smugglers, or in the South, trying to calm things down.

When he returns back to his base he'l call so I drive over to his base and we meet, he always hug's me, somtimes even in front of the troops! A bit embarrassing for me. We then go out for dinner and drinking together with his family to celebrate his safe return.

[peter991]

The lack of obvious PDAs was something I learnt quickly when I first arrived in Thailand.

Having said that, as a Westerner you notice things that are 'different' from what you are used to. Like it is common for two Thai males to walk down the street holding hands ... are they gay? Answer: No.

My current that BF is university educated and not openly gay. I am grateful when he holds my hand - usually to assist me climbing the stairs to catch Skytrain in BKK.

Mind you, Private Displays of Affection are outstanding - when we get to our hotel room ....

Peter

[geriatrickid]

Well, I certainly learnt alot here. I was always puzzled by the lack of concern when someone left or showed up after an absence. My friend and I meet up at the airport and it's like ok, so I see you falang, no wai, no handshake, just let's get going. I am an unemotional guy when it comes to humans at these times, but jeez, even I can muster some feeling. My besest bud here, who's gay, and I punch each other in the arm when greeting or departing. Sort of a screwed up compromise of sorts. The only people I see holding hands in my town are the bartrade folks and my thai friends always have a harsh comment. As squeamish as I am with PDAs, they're sort of cute at times. Unfortunately, here, it's the uncute that seem to do this.

As for the comment that we should be respectful of local Thai customs, that's all well and nice in theory, but all cultures are open to improvement and change. It's customary for some Thais to batter their spouses and partners. Does this mean, we have to go along with that? There's no harm in a respectful genuine greeting and if it offends some Thais, too bad. Sometimes a change in local customs is a good thing. My friends think it's polite to take off their shoes before they come into my place, but many of them rarely if ever wash their hands before eating. They share utensils at dinner and then wonder why they often come down with colds at the same time. Yesterday I had to explain to one of them that while I loved him dearly, I didn't think it was a great idea to stick the soup spoon that had come out of his mouth into the main soup bowl. Yes, he was insulted and called me germ man, but he won't do it again at least until he decides to invite himself over again for dinner

The west has incorporated many cultural displays from foreigners and is the richer for it. Thai culture isn't going to collapse if some people choose to show love rather than anger. I can think of far more offensive gestures. So hug and kiss away discreetly and if someone wants to get upset, let them.

[farang prince]

I find some of these responses to be quit disturbing. Some of you seem to think that it really doesn't matter about local customs or long-standing traditions, but only what you want to do. "Thais are too uptight" one of you said. "Thai culture isn't going to collapse if some people want to show love rather than anger" another said. I would like to remind you that you are in Thailand...not the USA...not the U.K...not Australia. Those of you who want to ignore Thai customs should also accept their disdain when you do.

[Jingthing]

I find some of these responses to be quit disturbing. Some of you seem to think that it really doesn't matter about local customs or long-standing traditions, but only what you want to do. "Thais are too uptight" one of you said. "Thai culture isn't going to collapse if some people want to show love rather than anger" another said. I would like to remind you that you are in Thailand...not the USA...not the U.K...not Australia. Those of you who want to ignore Thai customs should also accept their disdain when you do.

You are very easily disturbed.

We are not Thai, we will never be Thai, Thais don't want us to be Thai. Yes, observe the laws and don't scare the horses (elephants) but don't take it all so seriously.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[endure]

This all sounds very colonial. Teach the natives some proper manners then down the club for a chota peg or two.

[Ijustwannateach]

Best to let Thais lead the way when in Thailand, I think.

"Uptightness" is relative. It seemed a bit odd to me to be taking public baths with my colleagues in Japan at first, but I got used to it. Now I change underwear under a towel in the gym with the rest of the guys here. Why not?

I've been here long enough to see how people routinely react to overly affectionate couples in public- even if they are too polite and subtle for these couples to notice, the body language is uncomfortable and negative. I wouldn't want to expose a real Thai friend (who certainly would not miss the subtlety) to that kind of treatment in public.

"S"

[Guest]

Best to let Thais lead the way when in Thailand, I think.

"Uptightness" is relative. It seemed a bit odd to me to be taking public baths with my colleagues in Japan at first, but I got used to it. Now I change underwear under a towel in the gym with the rest of the guys here. Why not?

I've been here long enough to see how people routinely react to overly affectionate couples in public- even if they are too polite and subtle for these couples to notice, the body language is uncomfortable and negative. I wouldn't want to expose a real Thai friend (who certainly would not miss the subtlety) to that kind of treatment in public.

"S"

I agree. We are guests in Thailand and must respect the local way of life and culture. "When in Rome etc".

[geriatrickid]

I find some of these responses to be quit disturbing. Some of you seem to think that it really doesn't matter about local customs or long-standing traditions, but only what you want to do. "Thais are too uptight" one of you said. "Thai culture isn't going to collapse if some people want to show love rather than anger" another said. I would like to remind you that you are in Thailand...not the USA...not the U.K...not Australia. Those of you who want to ignore Thai customs should also accept their disdain when you do.

uh huh. I think you are selling people short on this. Go out into the countryside and you'll still see guys holding hands or with their arms around each other in public. That's what friends do. Go into the bigger cities where such displays of heartfelt affection have taken on negative sexual connotations and that's where you get the looks. Couple years back I was walking around the village with my colleague holding his hand in the same way I used to do with my g/f. No dirty looks from anyone. In the boonies, my friend walks with his arm around me and even though he's gay, there's nothing sexual about it, he's just my friend. When me and the friends are standing around down here in Phuket, it's nothing for one of them to lean on the other guy with his arms around him. It's the westerners that turned something so pure and decent into something bad. I'm not saying to go out and grab the b/fs nuggets or g/f's tit. What I'm saying is that a discreet peck on the cheek or even holding hands or a genuine hug won't upset people with a heart. What will upset in is when the locals see the young thai with the elderly falang and that has nothing to do with the concept of PDA. It's a different issue that's been talked to death in every expat forum.

[Jingthing]

I don't mean to give the impression that people should not be sensitive to the culture here, and make an effort to figure it out, and also to make a reasonable effort not to offend. As geriatric pointed out, alot of us are older farangs with younger Thai; this already is very offensive to many Thais so are you willing to stop that behavior too to gain the total love and respect of our hosts? I doubt it.

Edited December 26, 2007 by Jingthing

[Pawpcorn]

I find some of these responses to be quit disturbing. Some of you seem to think that it really doesn't matter about local customs or long-standing traditions, but only what you want to do. "Thais are too uptight" one of you said. "Thai culture isn't going to collapse if some people want to show love rather than anger" another said. I would like to remind you that you are in Thailand...not the USA...not the U.K...not Australia. Those of you who want to ignore Thai customs should also accept their disdain when you do.

uh huh. I think you are selling people short on this. Go out into the countryside and you'll still see guys holding hands or with their arms around each other in public. That's what friends do. Go into the bigger cities where such displays of heartfelt affection have taken on negative sexual connotations and that's where you get the looks. Couple years back I was walking around the village with my colleague holding his hand in the same way I used to do with my g/f. No dirty looks from anyone. In the boonies, my friend walks with his arm around me and even though he's gay, there's nothing sexual about it, he's just my friend. When me and the friends are standing around down here in Phuket, it's nothing for one of them to lean on the other guy with his arms around him. It's the westerners that turned something so pure and decent into something bad. I'm not saying to go out and grab the b/fs nuggets or g/f's tit. What I'm saying is that a discreet peck on the cheek or even holding hands or a genuine hug won't upset people with a heart. What will upset in is when the locals see the young thai with the elderly falang and that has nothing to do with the concept of PDA. It's a different issue that's been talked to death in every expat forum.

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Geeze, GK, you stated SO eloquently the exact feelings and beliefs I too hold in my heart!

I live and work in the Rama II / Centron area of Bangkok... and the boys / young men here still walk around with their arms around their friend's shoulder; a WONDERFUL sign of friendship and affection, with absolutely NO negative connotations, ZERO.

When I'm out in public with my 35 yo Thai boyfriend, he is eager, about 90% of the time... to SEEK OUT MY hand to hold; I know it makes him feel happy and complete.

I won't say that I'm ALWAYS comfortable doing this, and yes, we DO get looked at, but...

I'm a 6' 41/2" farang... and I ALWAYS get "looked at" when I'm alone, anyway...

and, besides, by boyfriend is also my very best friend, by a long shot, and...

I'm doing what HE wants to do, and doing what Thai friends are comfortable doing, and besides...

I think we make a cute couple!, (he is incredibly beautiful, and I am extremely lucky)...

Oh, I also like to sneak a kiss in a darkened movie theater... He always goes... "EhhhhHH!!" but kisses me anyway, and they are passionate quick kisses...

I tell myself... chill about this, don't think too much... relax and enjoy, and be happy.

It's "Amazing Thailand' afterall, and we're no longer stuck in the rut of Farangland, thank God.

Pawpcorn

>>>>Off to a 550 km motorcycle trip to Udon Thani, via dual Yamaha Nuevos... at dawn tomorrow!!<<<<<<

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree with the signs of friendship- but there are different rules for us foreigners, as you've noted, Pawpcorn. If my Thai partner- who would know better than me what the public attitudes and risks were- wanted to set more open rules, I could live with that, sure. I wouldn't be the one to ask first, though- and you *are* lucky!

"S"

[Guest]

The show of 'affection' in public by two men who have their arms around each others shoulders, or holding hands seems to be a waning custom in Bangkok compared with years ago. However, this was almost always associated with straight men who were friends, and didn't have western inhibitions about body contact or 'private space'. There has always been a general unwritten rule that boyfriends/girlfriends did not display open affection in public by kissing, holding hands etc, but that taboo is now often broken by the young (at least younger than me!). So in any society, cultural attitudes move with the times.

[toptuan]

I have no problem with "a little peck on the cheek".

What I object to is couples (gay or straight) sitting in a bar or restaurant (gay or straight) and indulging in deep, long French kisses; hands up skirts or shorts; groping and fondling, and doing this for minutes at a time, over and over again. It's as if they know the social reservations of Thailand and are showing off; challenging someone to make comment. Why can't they leave that type of truely intimate behaviour for the bedroom?

C'mon, kek, where besides a take-off bar/whore house would you see such a thing in Thailand? You don't see that in public in the West.

Even Thai TV (which has terrible moral displays of disrespect, violence, etc.) doesn't show mouth kissing.

You led a sheltered life in the West, PB. Tsk, tsk. I've come across that identical behavior numerous times, but the most outstanding example was at a library table on the second floor of Calvin College--a strict Christian Reformed School in Michigan. I was peeking between the books on the shelves, but ONLY by accident!

On a similar vein, I couldn't believe my eyes yesterday, here in conservative Isaan. I was waiting on my motorbike at the front of a discount market (like Costco in the West), called FarmMart. Out front were two young men in their early 20's, very straight-looking, farmer types. They were employees, waiting for the next customer to come out so they could help load their vehicle. One young man sat on a low push cart, and the other sat in front of him, directly between his legs with his arms on the others' legs. OK, no big deal. I've seen that 100's of times in Isaan among straight friends.

The surprising move came when I noticed some movement under the front-guy's arms. The guy behind him had put his arm around the front of the guy sitting between his legs, and he was twisting the nipples of his playmate in quite an erotic way. This wasn't a temporary playful joke--it went on for like 5 minutes. The front guy had one of those "I'm in heaven" expressions, while the guy in back had a slightly evil grin.

I had on one of those full helmets with a dark faceplate, so I could vicariously participate in the goings on. But what was going on was obvious enough for some older Thai to walk by, observe the activity, shake their heads like "boys will be boys" and walk on into the store. I drove away, shaking my own head like "Only in Thailand."

Later Addendum: Just when I thought what I'd seen must've been a fluke, I drove by a movie poster for "Bangkok Love Story" posted in a prominent place downtown in our small city. The scene depicted: two half-naked young men, one with his hands down the pants of the other. OK, now what about that "When in Rome" maxim?

Edited December 28, 2007 by toptuan

[Onnutrd]

I have no problem with "a little peck on the cheek".

What I object to is couples (gay or straight) sitting in a bar or restaurant (gay or straight) and indulging in deep, long French kisses; hands up skirts or shorts; groping and fondling, and doing this for minutes at a time, over and over again. It's as if they know the social reservations of Thailand and are showing off; challenging someone to make comment. Why can't they leave that type of truely intimate behaviour for the bedroom?

In the past when my boyfriend and I were out and about he'd try to hold my hands while we walked. At that time, I found it quite uncomfortable, but now I'm totally fine with it. Now he's managed to step it up and grab onto my ass which.

He has now managed to corrupt me totally, and I am totally open with him kissing me on the cheek, holding my hands, and if necessary, 'grabbing my ass in public'. After meeting in Christchurch the first time, we've managed to be more comfortable with each other.

However, in agreement with Kek on the above quotation, I dislike it if he kisses me or does anything which shows that we're gay in front of kids or if he tries to show too much affection in front of anyone. Even a little "pek on the cheek" would make me tell him to stop, if we're in front of kids.

Whether straight or gay or bi or whatever, I would'nt like it if I saw anyone with their tongue stuck down someone elses throat, or their hands up someone's elses 'whatever it might be'.

Although there is nothing wrong with too much affection, I believe that there is a certain level of affection which a seperate time and place for it, is required.

[Onnutrd]

Ooops, forgot to get to the point.

Any negative looks or comments?

NOT AT ALL.

Everywhere in BKK that my boyfriend and I have been to, we've not had any negative looks or comments, whatsoever. It might be because we're both asian looking (asian is the dominent gene amongst my asian and european mix), so that could be a reason why we can get away with walking extremely closely together.

Yesterday my boyfriend kissed me in the middle of the ground floor in Seacon Mall, and if you've been there, you'd be hard not notice that, but no one gave us any negative look or comment (or i did'nt notice?)..

The only negative look I got was last night when I went to buy dinner, I quickly got dressed and walked a few minutes to the Soi across the road. I was wondering why a group of teenagers were looking at me, I was hoping it was my good looks (hahahahaha), but I think it might have been my pink socks.

So the point is, people would stare at me for wearing pink socks, but not for being kissed by another guy. Odd.