Prosecutors Vow To Arrest Thaksin Upon His Return To Thailand

[rainman]

strange you chose to mention the biggest charitable contributer in the world...

The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is the largest charitable foundation in the world, founded by Bill and Melinda Gates in 2000. It has an endowment of US$37.6 billion as of July 11, 2007.

- wiki

And if Bill Gates ever went into a political race, he would be called the biggest vote buyer in history.

[rainman]

Sigh.. Beam, the answers ARE in this topic. Please read my posts, and those for example of Rainman, Emperor Tud. Of course Thais don't WANT to vote for Samak, but the ones that did were left with no choice. Don't misunderstand the huge resentment the "Democrats" called upon themselves by derailing the democratic process, enabling the coup to happen, and then supporting the coupe and all the illegal shambles that followed.

This is the first year even my wife didn't vote democrat. (Abstained).

I posted the same thing on page 6 or 7. Now we're on page 40 and people still don't understand what you and me are trying to say. Nobody is saying that Thaksin wasn't corrupt, but there are simply no better choices on the paper right now. The "Democrats" supported the coup, banned both the national and international media during the coup ...remember that Thai TV went offline and even CNN was shut down? They then didn't want to accept the election results, etc. They're not "Democrats", even though they call themselves that. They are a military regime in a democrat suit.

That is the real reason why the Thai people elected the PPP (aka Thaksin) and not the Democrats. They elected a corrupt government over a military dictatorship in a democracy suit.

And I'm a bit amused to see that many of the foreigners on this forum with probably a better education than many of the millions of Thais that voted in this election, still fail to see that this election was not democratic corruption vs. democracy, but democratic corruption vs. dictatorship. The Thai people never had an option true democracy (if it even exists) on the voting paper.

[jumnien]

Sigh.. Beam, the answers ARE in this topic. Please read my posts, and those for example of Rainman, Emperor Tud. Of course Thais don't WANT to vote for Samak, but the ones that did were left with no choice. Don't misunderstand the huge resentment the "Democrats" called upon themselves by derailing the democratic process, enabling the coup to happen, and then supporting the coupe and all the illegal shambles that followed.

This is the first year even my wife didn't vote democrat. (Abstained).

I posted the same thing on page 6 or 7. Now we're on page 40 and people still don't understand what you and me are trying to say. Nobody is saying that Thaksin wasn't corrupt, but there are simply no better choices on the paper right now. The "Democrats" supported the coup, banned both the national and international media during the coup ...remember that Thai TV went offline and even CNN was shut down? They then didn't want to accept the election results, etc. They're not "Democrats", even though they call themselves that. They are a military regime in a democrat suit.

That is the real reason why the Thai people elected the PPP (aka Thaksin) and not the Democrats. They elected a corrupt government over a military dictatorship in a democracy suit.

And I'm a bit amused to see that many of the foreigners on this forum with probably a better education than many of the millions of Thais that voted in this election, still fail to see that this election was not democratic corruption vs. democracy, but democratic corruption vs. dictatorship. The Thai people never had an option true democracy (if it even exists) on the voting paper.

Many of us understand and agree completely with what you are saying. It's just that some vociferous posters have been dedicating their lives to holding the anti-Thaksin coup-mongers unaccountable for their truly evil deeds.

[wintermute]

Sigh.. Beam, the answers ARE in this topic. Please read my posts, and those for example of Rainman, Emperor Tud. Of course Thais don't WANT to vote for Samak, but the ones that did were left with no choice. Don't misunderstand the huge resentment the "Democrats" called upon themselves by derailing the democratic process, enabling the coup to happen, and then supporting the coupe and all the illegal shambles that followed.

This is the first year even my wife didn't vote democrat. (Abstained).

I posted the same thing on page 6 or 7. Now we're on page 40 and people still don't understand what you and me are trying to say. Nobody is saying that Thaksin wasn't corrupt, but there are simply no better choices on the paper right now. The "Democrats" supported the coup, banned both the national and international media during the coup ...remember that Thai TV went offline and even CNN was shut down? They then didn't want to accept the election results, etc. They're not "Democrats", even though they call themselves that. They are a military regime in a democrat suit.

That is the real reason why the Thai people elected the PPP (aka Thaksin) and not the Democrats. They elected a corrupt government over a military dictatorship in a democracy suit.

And I'm a bit amused to see that many of the foreigners on this forum with probably a better education than many of the millions of Thais that voted in this election, still fail to see that this election was not democratic corruption vs. democracy, but democratic corruption vs. dictatorship. The Thai people never had an option true democracy (if it even exists) on the voting paper.

I agree with this as well. I never understood why so many farang on this forum (and a few non farang) were so willing to cast their lot in with the coup. I remember from day one it seems like there was endless praise and brown nosing of the junta. The Bangkok post has been nearly unreadable for the past 2 years. Even at his worst Thaksin was still duly elected, his corruption is no worse than some of the banana republic leaders you see in central/south America. He's about the same as Berlusconi on the corruption scale if you want to compare developed world shenanigans. Not saying it's a good thing but he's no junior Adolf Hitler like some of the mindless have made him out to be.

On the otherhand the military junta's attitude towards the press and their right wing nationalist bent was disturbing. I feel that if it weren't for some very powerful figure(s) in Thailand reigning them in they would have used a lot more force and maybe some old school purges. Military dictatorships in SE Asia are just a recipe for disaster everytime.

Edited December 29, 2007 by wintermute

[rainman]

I have to correct myself, I wrote something about page 40 above. That was in another thread. I didn't notice there were 2 going on the same subject.

[Johpa]

The whole think makes me sad, the Thais had a chance to go forward with some new faces and new idea's, but they chose the same old bunch of #&%$("£@... Vote buying is a crime in this country. Who said crime doesnt pay?

No, the Thais had a choice between one old bunch of "#&%$("£@" and another bunch of old "#&%$("£@". Changing the names of the parties and changing the titular leadership of those parties, especially in a parliamentary political system, does not make old "#&%$("£@" turn into anything other than the same old "#&%$("£@".

[beammeup]

The whole think makes me sad, the Thais had a chance to go forward with some new faces and new idea's, but they chose the same old bunch of #&%$("£@... Vote buying is a crime in this country. Who said crime doesnt pay?

Sigh.. Beam, the answers ARE in this topic. Please read my posts, and those for example of Rainman, Emperor Tud. Of course Thais don't WANT to vote for Samak, but the ones that did were left with no choice. Don't misunderstand the huge resentment the "Democrats" called upon themselves by derailing the democratic process, enabling the coup to happen, and then supporting the coupe and all the illegal shambles that followed.

This is the first year even my wife didn't vote democrat. (Abstained).

Well I'm not looking for answers. It was a cliche. I have read every post here and I agree with everything Sriratrcha John says and a few others. The way I see it the Dems are more in line with western democracies, while the PPP are seem to favour the "asian values".

Edited December 29, 2007 by beammeup

[beammeup]

Sigh.. Beam, the answers ARE in this topic. Please read my posts, and those for example of Rainman, Emperor Tud. Of course Thais don't WANT to vote for Samak, but the ones that did were left with no choice. Don't misunderstand the huge resentment the "Democrats" called upon themselves by derailing the democratic process, enabling the coup to happen, and then supporting the coupe and all the illegal shambles that followed.

This is the first year even my wife didn't vote democrat. (Abstained).

I posted the same thing on page 6 or 7. Now we're on page 40 and people still don't understand what you and me are trying to say. Nobody is saying that Thaksin wasn't corrupt, but there are simply no better choices on the paper right now. The "Democrats" supported the coup, banned both the national and international media during the coup ...remember that Thai TV went offline and even CNN was shut down? They then didn't want to accept the election results, etc. They're not "Democrats", even though they call themselves that. They are a military regime in a democrat suit.

That is the real reason why the Thai people elected the PPP (aka Thaksin) and not the Democrats. They elected a corrupt government over a military dictatorship in a democracy suit.

And I'm a bit amused to see that many of the foreigners on this forum with probably a better education than many of the millions of Thais that voted in this election, still fail to see that this election was not democratic corruption vs. democracy, but democratic corruption vs. dictatorship. The Thai people never had an option true democracy (if it even exists) on the voting paper.

Many of us understand and agree completely with what you are saying. It's just that some vociferous posters have been dedicating their lives to holding the anti-Thaksin coup-mongers unaccountable for their truly evil deeds.

Many of us understand but dont agree with you!!

[PadThaiGuy]

Maybe the offer was not for 1 billion Baht - but the buying of votes certainly seems to be a trait of the PPP - as the EC is finding out.

I am still stunned that the ordinary and quite poor people of Thailand supported the PPP, it is just beyond belief after Thaksin is almost certainly guilty of robbing these people of Thailand's inheritance of billions of Baht and ensuring their future will take many many more years before they can escape the poverty trap whilst Thaksin and his cronies just get richer and richer. Thaksin is a clever and dangerous man as he knows how to dangle irresistible carrots in front of the poor and usually badly educated Thai folk, they then take the carrot with hopeful misguided eyes and he cunningly continues to line his own pocket at the expense of Thailand's real people.

How can it be right in a country of such abject poverty that a few like Thaksin and his cronies can be so rich, and that they carry on ensuring that the poor people of Thailand remain poor, is it maybe for continued cheap labour? This is to me immoral. Sorry but I totally despair now of the future here until the electorate see some sense and start their own REAL peoples' party, much like in the UK 100 years ago when the poor working class majority had little say in politics until they formed their own political party and even then it was still problems until the 1990's when finally it became a realistic political movement of the people and showed how it can make a country prosper for an extended period. I was hoping that the world of extreme right and left politics were almost over and we could move to the consensus and truly productive centre ground, but this election has shown the extreme right can and do still deceive the masses even today.

Still this is not my country but I am a law abiding guest here who loves the place so although I can make my views known, as Thailand does support free speech in principal, there is nothing else of course we can or should do but be good guests and enjoy life here and keep our heads down. I must say though Malaysia is looking more promising for the future, I hope I am wrong but time will tell.

If you were around in the 1990s, you would realize he made his billions in the telecommunications industry as well as owning 60 more companies.

The company he sold to Singapore was HIS company. No taxes were paid on this sale as there is no capitol gains tax in Thailand.

He became prime Minister after the economic collapse.

During his terms, which, by the way, he won by landslides, unemployment was the lowest in the world and the Thai stock market was one of the best in the world, doubling in 2003.

Thaksin, paid the IMF loan early and the Thais, in general enjoyed economic expansion like they have never seen before.

Probably the least corrupt guy in Thai politics.

The electio , on Dec.23rd proves the majority like the guy. After all, this is the 4th time he (his party) won big.

Good riddance to the corrupt military rulers.

[PadThaiGuy]

I am still stunned that the ordinary and quite poor people of Thailand supported the PPP, it is just beyond belief after Thaksin is almost certainly guilty of robbing these people of Thailand's inheritance of billions of Baht and ensuring their future will take many many more years before they can escape the poverty trap whilst Thaksin and his cronies just get richer and richer

I've never have understood why so many people who have lived in LOS for a couple rounds of government, thai style, cannot seem to grasp Thaksins ADMINISTRATION, was no more nor less corrupt than previous governments.

Is it that difficult? Is there a switch that just won't click? A mental block that stops all thought when this is stated? Unlike those governments he actually gave something to poor people. Yes he is corrupt, yes he is venally corrupt we all know this. I guess the point is if the other non Thaksin administrations would have been something less than as bad as Thaksins we could honestly throw brickbats at the people who voted for the PPP.

Obviously we cannot

I doubt the elections were real. if there can be fixed elections in USA then there can be in Thailand. The mistake was that the coup did not stay in place longer and ensure a real election.

My wife talked to her family and there were PPP (and maybe other party's) representatives in rural Issan villages buying votes again this time just like the TRT did in past elections. The poor people up there will vote for whomever gives them money and promises to help their lives out the most. Under TRT they did get better health care and educational services in rural areas and well as a lot of job opportunities due to expanding OTOP so can you really blame them? I'm afraid it's pretty much that way everywhere. People don't vote for the best leader for the whole country, they vote for the person who they think will help them the most in their personal situation. Sad but true...

Yes, people will vote for the person that will improve their situation. Why is that sad?

That's democracy.

They love Thaksin.

Edited December 29, 2007 by PadThaiGuy

[Ricardo]

not democratic corruption vs. democracy, but democratic corruption vs. dictatorship[/b]. The Thai people never had an option true democracy (if it even exists) on the voting paper.

The democratic corruption being the Democrats & the Dictatorship being Thaksin. Well I'd rather not see a dictatorship here, thank you ! So I'm pleased to see the military returning on-schedule to elections, rather than the Great Dictator (pace Charlie Chaplin) remaining in power.

Many of us understand and agree completely with what you are saying. It's just that some vociferous posters have been dedicating their lives to holding the anti-Thaksin coup-mongers unaccountable for their truly evil deeds.

Evil Deeds like not murdering innocent people in the name of a drugs war perhaps ? But I do of course welcome investigations into corruption under the junta, as long as Samak/PPP/TRT/Thaksin doesn't find it necessary this time round, to lock the Auditor-General out of her office, because she is too good at her job.

Many of us understand but dont agree with you!!

Seconded.

[jumnien]

Well, I guess it's just best that we all just agree to disagree and give our best wishes to the first elected administration after a devastating military junta.

[Ricardo]

Well, I guess it's just best that we all just agree to disagree and give our best wishes to the first elected administration after a devastating military junta.

Agreed - we farangs can accept different points-of-view, without wanting to stifle them. Can Thaksin this time - we'll see.

We all welcome an elected administration again, even if it's not the party we feel is best for Thailand, and nobody wants to see the military feeling that they have no option but to take control again. Hopefully PPP will keep the promises not to take revenge on the coup-makers, although I don't think so, especially once their pay-master returns.

'Devastating' - I feel that's over-the-top - but then I remember the posters who used to say "there is nobody other-than-Thaksin who is capable of running the coutry" , and we've seen first a junta, then an appointed-government & now a (probably) PPP-government led by Samak, with others waiting in-the-wings. So there were alternatives. And they all make some sort of job of it, the economy still grows, the world still turns.

Would you agree that having a significant opposition in parliament, with more than 25% of the seats, will be an improvement, on what went before, a couple of years ago ? And that the new Security Act should be junked by PPP as soon as possible ?

[jumnien]

Well, I guess it's just best that we all just agree to disagree and give our best wishes to the first elected administration after a devastating military junta.

Agreed - we farangs can accept different points-of-view, without wanting to stifle them. Can Thaksin this time - we'll see.

We all welcome an elected administration again, even if it's not the party we feel is best for Thailand, and nobody wants to see the military feeling that they have no option but to take control again. Hopefully PPP will keep the promises not to take revenge on the coup-makers, although I don't think so, especially once their pay-master returns.

'Devastating' - I feel that's over-the-top - but then I remember the posters who used to say "there is nobody other-than-Thaksin who is capable of running the coutry" , and we've seen first a junta, then an appointed-government & now a (probably) PPP-government led by Samak, with others waiting in-the-wings. So there were alternatives. And they all make some sort of job of it, the economy still grows, the world still turns.

Would you agree that having a significant opposition in parliament, with more than 25% of the seats, will be an improvement, on what went before, a couple of years ago ? And that the new Security Act should be junked by PPP as soon as possible ?

Yes, the junta's new Security Act should be junked by PPP asap. I also agree that an opposition within parliament, even if they are right-wing military patsies, is not such a bad thing. I don't think anyone should take revenge on militaries like Myanmar's or Thailand's who take civilian governments by force. I do think they should be opposed and defeated.

[Bagwan]

The Bangkok post has been nearly unreadable for the past 2 years.

I entirely agree. I now subscribe to 'The Corsetmakers Weekly'. I buy it mainly for the 'Spot the Ball' competition.

[Lockstock]

To be honest the whole 'vote buying' thing is a bit of a moot point. It is hardly new to this round of elections or new to the Thaksin era. I can remember witnessing my first local election for an 'Amphur' official back in 1999. The local candidates were paying people to vote for them. This is how it works at every level from the amphur up. The political models that we have become accustomed to in the West do not neccessarily work or translate well in other parts of the World. This is simply the way things are done in Thailand.......and are the generals voting orders to the 3 million+ soldiers any better? As an ex soldier myself, I can tell you, if you are putting your knackers on the line for anyone, you want to have a say in who that 'anyone' is.

My second point is that surely a country is better off with a Government that has put its hand in its pocket to gain power in what is the closest method to democracy available rather than a government that put its tanks onto the streets to gain the same office?? Surely what has happened this last week is a step in the right direction??

And finally, my travels to Thailand centre around the North where I lived in Chaing Mai for a couple of years and over in the far east of the country where our family are and we have a place. This subject is often a topic of conversation and I have yet to meet someone who does not want Thaksin back. Do not sell them short as ignorant farmers (a view far too popular on this forum). They know what Thaksin got up to but they also know that their lives were better and their opportunities greater with him at the helm, and for that, they are willing to ignore an unpaid tax bill.

.........but if anyone wearing olive green happens to be reading these posts as 'anonymous' I just want you to know that I love the Generals...they are great and handsom and funny and witty and thoroughly deserve everything that they get.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Lockstock

[jumnien]

Military Interference Undermines Upcoming Elections

Human Rights Watch

22 December 2007

Pick to Post

(New York, December 20, 2007) - Failure by Thailand's Electoral Commission to act on evidence of military interference in the upcoming Thai elections undermines prospects for Sunday's elections to be free and fair, Human Rights Watch said today.

The courts dissolved the Thai Rak Thai Party for manipulating the electoral process, but now the junta is doing the same thing.

Elaine Pearson, Asia deputy director at Human Rights Watch

Since General Sonthi Boonyaratglin overthrew the Thaksin administration in a bloodless coup on September 19, 2006, the military junta - now called the Council for National Security (CNS) - promised that the December 23 national elections would mark Thailand's democratic transition.

In May 2007, a Constitutional Tribunal dissolved Thaksin Shinawatra's Thai Rak Thai Party, and all 111 party executives (including Thaksin) were banned from politics for five years after being found guilty of electoral fraud.

"The courts dissolved the Thai Rak Thai Party for manipulating the electoral process, but now the junta is doing the same thing," said Elaine Pearson, Asia deputy director at Human Rights Watch. "Military leaders are maneuvering to influence voting results and to prevent Thaksin's allies from returning to government."

Banned politicians cannot actively assist candidates or political parties in the upcoming elections. However, the People Power Party, which is widely seen as the Thai Rak Thai Party's reincarnation, is expected to garner wide support in the upcoming elections.

Allegations of a military plot against the People Power Party emerged when party leader Samak Sundaravej revealed copies of a CNS memo dated September 14 and other documents approved by General Sonthi. The CNS memo is now available on the internet. According to the memo, the CNS devised a contingency plan and ordered various operations to harass, block, and discredit the People Power Party and its supporters. The plan also included the mobilization of army-run television channels, radio stations, intelligence, and security agencies to present reports and circulate rumors discrediting the People Power Party and Thaksin.

"By endorsing a plan to discredit and harass political candidates, the junta has violated its legal obligation to remain neutral in the elections," said Pearson.

On November 29, a fact-finding subcommittee reporting to the Election Commission found that the junta had acted with bias ahead of the upcoming election. The next day, the CNS urgently requested that the Election Commission halt the investigation.

On December 12, the five election commissioners ruled 4-1 that although the CNS failed to be neutral, it did so under the grounds of safeguarding national security and therefore its actions had constitutional immunity. Without seeing any written evidence, the majority of commissioners accepted the CNS's explanation that since the plan in the memo was not implemented, no political party or individual was affected.

Contrary to the Election Commission ruling, People Power Party candidates have claimed harassment and intimidation by the military. For example, on December 18, three armed soldiers from the Internal Security Operation Command were found monitoring Sangtuan Pongmanee, a People Power Party candidate in Lamphun province. In Chiang Rai and Sisaket provinces, the People Power Party reported that surveillance by soldiers has put pressure on its candidates and activists.

Martial law is still in effect in 31 provinces, mostly Thaksin's political strongholds in the north and northeast of the country. Under martial law, the military can ban political gatherings, censor the media, and detain people without charge.

"Imposing martial law prevents political parties from competing on a level playing field," said Pearson. "Although Thaksin and his allies showed contempt for human rights and democracy, it is up to the Thai voters, not the military, to decide who should govern the country."

Source: Thailand: Military Interference Undermines Upcoming Elections

[John K]

Per post #262

So why was it only the Thaksin bunch making noise about it? Everyone else seemed to be able to work under martial law. All martial law was doing was insuring people were playing by the rules as I see it. There were no statues of generals going up that I heard about. Seeing as most of the vote buying was going on where there was martial law, I find it hard to say there was not some justification for it.

Although HRW tries to do the right thing, they don’t seem to look very deep at the underlying circumstances or reasons. Hence they seem to ignore the cause and only see the effect.

[hammered]

“Polling itself on election day was smooth except for some infractions of polling procedures. Our concern is more with election violations in the pre-election period and how the ECT will deal with cases of election fraud in the next two weeks,” said Mr. Damaso Magbual, ANFREL’s Head of Mission.

“We urge the ECT to pursue cases of vote-buying vigorously but to do so equitably. They must not be seen to award red and yellow cards unfairly. So far the decision-making of the ECT has not been open enough,” continued Mr. Magbual. ANFREL will observe any re-elections that take place.

Despite new legislation, money politics remains pervasive. “People are scared to report vote buying to the authorities because they fear for their own safety and doubt that anyone will be successfully prosecuted. Authorities are sometimes reluctant to investigate,” said Magbual.

The independent Anfrel election observers (maybe the only neutral body with direct invovlement of the election) highlight pre-election fraud as the main problem with the election and urge the EC to pursue it vigorously and equitably. This report gives the exact quotes of the Anfrel representative.

The Nation are good enough to have given a complete blog to this: http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anfrel

With lots of other input from the election observers. It is strange that so little is heard of the comments of this neutral body.

[yumidesign]

PPP secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee is busy defending his party’s reputation. He scoffed at rumours that the PPP had bribed three minor parties into forming a coalition government.

“The PPP never offered 1 billion baht to any political party to form a government with us as rumoured,” he said. “I don’t think there is any party that would want to lead a government knowing full well that it had been formed illegally.”\

I guess getting votes by paying for them is not classed as forming a government illegally

[blaze]

“Polling itself on election day was smooth except for some infractions of polling procedures. Our concern is more with election violations in the pre-election period and how the ECT will deal with cases of election fraud in the next two weeks,” said Mr. Damaso Magbual, ANFREL’s Head of Mission.

“We urge the ECT to pursue cases of vote-buying vigorously but to do so equitably. They must not be seen to award red and yellow cards unfairly. So far the decision-making of the ECT has not been open enough,” continued Mr. Magbual. ANFREL will observe any re-elections that take place.

Despite new legislation, money politics remains pervasive. “People are scared to report vote buying to the authorities because they fear for their own safety and doubt that anyone will be successfully prosecuted. Authorities are sometimes reluctant to investigate,” said Magbual.

The independent Anfrel election observers (maybe the only neutral body with direct invovlement of the election) highlight pre-election fraud as the main problem with the election and urge the EC to pursue it vigorously and equitably. This report gives the exact quotes of the Anfrel representative.

The Nation are good enough to have given a complete blog to this: http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anfrel

With lots of other input from the election observers. It is strange that so little is heard of the comments of this neutral body.

Thanks for posting that Hammered.

For those who take the time to read through- and in terms of the named or even alleged infractions mentioned by Anfrel- PPP comes across the cleanest. The Chart Thai and the authorities don't fare so well.

"In Chiang Rai, our observers received credible information that the army coerced their own soldiers and intimidated PPP supporters.”

"in Maha Sarakham a polling station committee member was actively encouraging a voter to select a particular political party (Chart Thai)"

"in Surat Thani, polling stations were visited by the wife of the vice mayor, a known supporter of the Democrat Party"

Canvassers murdered included "three from PPP, and one each from the Democrats and Chart Thai."

"Without the public and observers being able to scrutinize such rulings, the ECT leaves itself more vulnerable to accusations of bias." (they specifically refer to the secretive way in which EC is dealing with the VCD charges as well as the dubious reasoning that saw the CNS exonerated after it's botched plan to interfere in the election- which Anfrel seems to say- it did).

"... the military has not met its obligation of remaining neutral in these elections, as illustrated by the plan by the Council for National Security (CNS) to hinder the PPP’s campaigning"

"A senior army officer in Chiang Rai confided to ANFREL observers that officers in the area has been instructed to vote for Chart Thai party and candidates"

"...between 50-100 homes of PPP supporters were searched by the police on the pretence of ‘searching for weapons’"

"Human Rights Watch have documented a case where three armed soldiers from ISOC were arrested by police on 18th December while monitoring the house of Sa-nguan Pongmanee, a PPP candidate in Muang district, Lamphun."

"ANFREL believes that the problem (vote buying) remains widespread, committed by all major political parties,"

Edited December 31, 2007 by blaze

[Rinrada]

Any RED cards been handed out yet?....let me guess........

[rainman]

Any RED cards been handed out yet?....let me guess........

I believe 3 of them yesterday, to PPP.

[younghusband]

Per post #262

So why was it only the Thaksin bunch making noise about it? Everyone else seemed to be able to work under martial law. All martial law was doing was insuring people were playing by the rules as I see it. There were no statues of generals going up that I heard about. Seeing as most of the vote buying was going on where there was martial law, I find it hard to say there was not some justification for it.

Although HRW tries to do the right thing, they don’t seem to look very deep at the underlying circumstances or reasons. Hence they seem to ignore the cause and only see the effect.

Oh it's Human Rights Watch that has got it all wrong.The knots the pro-coup mob tie themselves up in would make a cat laugh.Provinces under martial law were largely those where the support for Thaksin was most deeply entrenched.The CNS conducted a black propaganda campaign to discourage popular support for Thaksin and when found out illegally pressurised the EC to drop the investigation.Vote buying although reprehensible is a side issue.As I have pointed out for months the chief characteristic of the junta is its stunning incompetence, willing to wound but afraid to strike.Despite all its keystone cop frenetic activity, it has still lost out.

[younghusband]

Per post #262

So why was it only the Thaksin bunch making noise about it? Everyone else seemed to be able to work under martial law. All martial law was doing was insuring people were playing by the rules as I see it. There were no statues of generals going up that I heard about. Seeing as most of the vote buying was going on where there was martial law, I find it hard to say there was not some justification for it.

Although HRW tries to do the right thing, they don’t seem to look very deep at the underlying circumstances or reasons. Hence they seem to ignore the cause and only see the effect.

Oh it's Human Rights Watch that has got it all wrong.The knots the pro-coup mob tie themselves up in would make a cat laugh.Provinces under martial law were largely those where the support for Thaksin was most deeply entrenched.The CNS conducted a black propaganda campaign to discourage popular support for Thaksin and when found out illegally pressurised the EC to drop the investigation.Vote buying although reprehensible is a side issue.As I have pointed out for months the chief characteristic of the junta is its stunning incompetence, willing to wound but afraid to strike.Despite all its keystone cop frenetic activity, it has still lost out.

Can I just add one point.We are currently seeing the CNS, disgraced and embarassed, desperately looking to neutralise or reverse the PPP victory at the polls which is internationally recognised as being free and fair.A coup for a variety of reasons looks impractical and therefore the effort is concentrated to post facto disenfranchising voters in the North and North East through vote buying accusations.Perhaps this will work and perhaps it won't.My view it won't because of the junta's proven record of incompetence and political ineptitude.Particularly difficult because its strategy now has to be worked out in the open glare of international opinion.

[jumnien]

Thailand needs neither a competent junta nor an incompetent junta.

[Ricardo]

Can I just add one point.We are currently seeing the CNS, disgraced and embarassed, desperately looking to neutralise or reverse the PPP victory at the polls which is internationally recognised as being free and fair.A coup for a variety of reasons looks impractical and therefore the effort is concentrated to post facto disenfranchising voters in the North and North East through vote buying accusations.Perhaps this will work and perhaps it won't.My view it won't because of the junta's proven record of incompetence and political ineptitude.Particularly difficult because its strategy now has to be worked out in the open glare of international opinion.

I would agree with you. that the junta & appointed-government have failed to fully make the case against Thaksin, although at least a few cases have so far made it to court. It is perhaps positive, that these haven't gone ahead despite the absense of the accused, negative that Thaksin failed to return to face his accusers.

But I don't agree that the North/North-East voters are being disenfranchised by the EC, these elections will surely be re-run, with a new PPP-candidate standing (red-cards) or the same candidate standing again for PPP/Democrats/whoever (yellow-cards) ?

And I would still expect the PPP to be the largest single party following that.

The greater risk is surely that the military may be tempted to try to have the PPP dissolved, which would cause major problems, perhaps equal to those of a Thaksin-return to a slate wiped-clean by PPP. That the evidence of vote-buying & Thaksin's involvement (VCDs or PPP-leaders' own statements) exists can IMHO hardly be disputed. What counts is whether the military feel moved to use it or not. Troubled times indeed.

[rainman]

Well I'm not looking for answers. It was a cliche. I have read every post here and I agree with everything Sriratrcha John says and a few others. The way I see it the Dems are more in line with western democracies, while the PPP are seem to favour the "asian values".

And "asian values" are a bad thing for Thailand? Last time I checked the map, Thailand was in Asia, not in Europe or North America. A "western democracy" was never available in this election. The "Democrats" are a military dictatorship that thinks they can make a coup whenever they want to - and still after these elections they refuse to rule out yet another coup. They can't even accept free elections and try to hold onto power with all means possible. That's the kind of democracy Thailand doesn't need and the people have shown it with their votes.

[sriracha john]

With profound apologies for interjecting some on-topic discussion into this thread....

Thai assets examiner says judicial process against Thaksin cannot be interfered

BANGKOK -- The Assets Examination Committee (AEC) of Thailand said on Tuesday that the judicial process in cases against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra cannot be interfered whoever becomes the new prime minister.

Sak Korsaengruang, AEC's spokesman, expressed confidence that the political parties coalition led by the People Power Party (PPP)which is likely to form the new government would not be able to interfere in the cases against Thaksin.

Sak said the AEC had prepared comprehensive investigative reports for courts to consider the cases so the trial process could not be interfered.

The AEC, an independent agency installed by the military after last year's coup which toppled Thaksin, is a main committee investigating into Thaksin who was accused of abusing power while he was in power. Last year, the AEC has frozen some 2 billion U.S. dollar assets of Thaksin and his family.

But the PPP led by Thaksin's ally Samak Sundaravej has said if the party forms a new government, it will firstly disband the AEC. *However he said he would not do that when he capitulated and accepted Chart Thai/Puea Pandin parties 5 pre-conditions to joining the coalition...but then again, the PPP seems to change their agreement to those conditions on an hourly basis, so who knows*

However, Sak said he did not worry that the next government would dissolve or persecute the AEC because the public would feel that such actions were unacceptable.

Sak said he believed that the AEC would complete its probe into23 cases before it completes its term in June and that the cases would be handed over to government agencies concerned

- Xinhua

[Ricardo]

Well I'm not looking for answers. It was a cliche. I have read every post here and I agree with everything Sriratrcha John says and a few others. The way I see it the Dems are more in line with western democracies, while the PPP are seem to favour the "asian values".

And "asian values" are a bad thing for Thailand? Last time I checked the map, Thailand was in Asia, not in Europe or North America. A "western democracy" was never available in this election. The "Democrats" are a military dictatorship that thinks they can make a coup whenever they want to - and still after these elections they refuse to rule out yet another coup. They can't even accept free elections and try to hold onto power with all means possible. That's the kind of democracy Thailand doesn't need and the people have shown it with their votes.

Sorry to disagree, but on a point of fact, the 'Democrats' are a political party, and not at all a part of the military coup ? Can you substatiate your claim that 'they refuse to rule out yet another coup' ?

The leader of the Democrats, more than a week ago, accepted that Samak/PPP were likely to be the largest single party in parliament, after the EC had completed their work, and said that he was happy to form an opposition to their coalition-government. How does this equate to 'can't even accept free elections' ?

Lastly, the people have shown with their party-votes, that they are evenly split, with the Democrats actually a few thousand votes ahead of PPP, on the last figures I saw ?