Cc Was Cloned. Caveat Emptor.

[Serendipitist]

On a certain evening, I paid using my CC in a certain Bookashop (name changed), lwr Sukhumvit. At the time of payment there were two male employees present. I was presented with a wireless CC device and asked to enter my pin. I entered my pin successfully. I then noticed that a slip was being issued on another machine which, I assumed at first, was just my receipt being printed. However, I was asked to sign that payment slip and I expressed surprise stating that I've never had to give my pin and then sign afterwards, in all my life - as usually a pin was perfectly sufficient. The second male employee responded that "this was just for my added security" that I was asked to sign the additional payment slip, having already submitted my pin. Now... the very word 'security' is ordinarily just a byword for added inconvenience in my experience, but on this occasion I felt particularly uncomfortable with this situation, and definitely felt that something was not quite right. And my scepticism repeatedly returned to unsettle me for several hours afterwards. Nonetheless my tg repeatedly assured that I was just unnecessarily worrying and that I should stop thinking about it... Which, I eventually did.

-

I used my cc once again three days later. Or rather, I tried to use my cc again three days later... My attempt at payment was blocked. I should add that this was the first time that I tried to use my cc since the purchase above. I then called my cc issuer and was told that there were purchases, allegedly on my cc on the day following the above purchase, several again the day after and also xx more purchases on the day after that for varying amounts including one of the last for nearly three hundred Euros after which my cc was suspended. Not one of these purchases were mine. And there were no unusual purchases before the time of my above purchase. Moreover, regarding the last few purchases on my cc, I was able to view the transactions before my eyes and all was ordinary. So my thoughts immediately returned to my experience above...

Since my cc was rendered useless, we asked at another of said shop's branches about the procedure above, and the female employee not only expressed surprise at what happened, but moreover stated that it was definitely abnormal in their branches to have customers enter a pin and then sign another payment slip afterwards.

Lastly, I have made occasional purchases over the years in branches of the same shop without any issues whatsoever, so I must stress that this must have been a most unusual bad experience. However if the same employee is currently still working there and tries the same procedure for “your added security”, all I can say is this:

You have been warned: So please don't let the same happen to you for “your added security”...

[britmaveric]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

[Old Croc]

Why are you hiding the name of the shop -- protecting the thieves?

[Serendipitist]

Why are you hiding the name of the shop -- protecting the thieves?

I am 'hiding' the name of the shop as it is only my duty to describe the factual circumstances as they have occurred and firstly the shop's owners have every right at present to state that anything I have said is alleged only. Secondly, it is not the owner(s) of the shop who is/are at fault - unless they've instructed a couple of particular employees to act in the above manner which I extremely doubt.

Lastly, I would respectfully appeal to any mods to delete any guesses at which shop I may be referring to, as there has been no legal case settled so far on this issue. My post only stands to warn others to be extra cautious when paying by cc, as described above, for the time being - in case the above scenario could occur to anyone else.

Thank you.

[onethailand]

Without naming the shop - or getting the police to take action against the alleged perpetrator - your post does nothing to help any of us.

Instead, you've just damaged the business of every book shop in lower Sukhumvit. Think about it.

[Serendipitist]

Without naming the shop - or getting the police to take action against the alleged perpetrator - your post does nothing to help any of us.

Instead, you've just damaged the business of every book shop in lower Sukhumvit. Think about it.

You surely grant me too much influence! I have no more damaged the business of every bookstore somewhere in LOS than if someone said on here that they vomited after eating in a certain (unnamed) burger chain's store would damage the hamburger business in an area! I am sorry if it doesn't help you, and if there is no one else whom it helps I would regret taking the time to warn others even more. That being said, if there are any mods who would agree that the area specified was too specific, then please change same to "somewhere in Thailand". But I remain unconvinced that my post would damage sales in all bookstores in that locale, just by warning persons to not enter their pin number and let their card be used to print a slip for signing afterwards.

By all means I may continue to purchase from this chain from time to time and so should everyone else. But if the circumstances as I've described above should occur again I would not leave the shop so quickly and also I would, as an additional precaution, immediately have to inform my cc issuer to take extra precautions etc. with my cc. Please respect that I have had to tread the middle ground between informing others to be extra mindful if paying by cc for the time being, and not damaging the business of a good chain whom I thoroughly believe were completely unknowing that one or two of their male employees were acting in such a way. As I stated in my OP, I have made several previous purchases in branches of the store with satisfaction and once the bad eggs move on, I would expect that everything will return to normal.

[onethailand]

I have no more damaged the business of every bookstore somewhere in LOS than if someone said on here that they vomited after eating in a certain (unnamed) burger chain's store would damage the hamburger business in an area!

I can't agree with this - particularly as you named a specific area of town. If I heard a report of food poisoning in a certain area of town, I would most certainly avoid eating a burger (or possibly eating at all) in that area. This is human nature - why take a risk if you can avoid it altogether?

...just by warning persons to not enter their pin number and let their card be used to print a slip for signing afterwards.

... would have been more than enough - the nature of the shop and its locale is thus irrelevant. By describing it as you did, you unintentionally but unavoidably affect the businesses in that area.

I still would like to know why you have not reported the incident to police, as you are clearly certain that the fraudster is still working in that particular shop - I find it very strange that you will allow a crook to continue to rip off other customers - yet try to vaguely warn us of the possibility that we could encounter this crook.

[Serendipitist]

@ Onethailand: it would be appreciated if you didn't offer leading questions from your own presumptions.

[jEFFREYk44]

If someone referred to a book shop as "Bookashop", well, maybe I watch too much television but I can surely guess it is not "Asia Bookshops" 2 + 2 is easy and by the way, the people in this branch, if I am correct on which it is, are very good people, I would be surprised if this was true

[pointofview]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

Most places on this planet now require a pin for a cc purchase - uh!

[onethailand]

@ Onethailand: it would be appreciated if you didn't offer leading questions from your own presumptions.

By leading question I assume you mean "reported the fraud"?

If you have done so then I apologize. But it appeared to me as if you did not do so because you said this person is still working there.

I'm sure the warning is appreciated - but the way you described it is not fair to other similar businesses in that area (and for the record I don't own any businesses in that area).

Jeffrey - LOL. Obviously more than a few of us can figure out who it is - but there will be people who cannot.

And btw, I have never, ever, been asked for a PIN for a CC purchase anywhere in the world - and if they did, I wouldn't know it anyhow since I never do cash advances from credit cards (except at casinos where a PIN is not required).

[YoungAndRice]

ive never been asked for a pin

[Naam]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

Most places on this planet now require a pin for a cc purchase - uh!

never heard or experienced this and i have no idea what PINs my various credit cards have.

[cm-happy]

Is the op responsible for the cc activity after the bookshop visit?

[Jockstar]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

Most places on this planet now require a pin for a cc purchase - uh!

Not for a credit card. For a debit card yes. But not a credit card.

[endure]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

Most places on this planet now require a pin for a cc purchase - uh!

never heard or experienced this and i have no idea what PINs my various credit cards have.

pointofview is talking about the fact that the UK has, in the past couple of years, introduced the chip and pin method of transaction verification. It's also used in France. Whether it's used in 'most places on this planet' is another matter.

[monkeyclub]

<shop name deleted>

Some UK/Jersey banks have introduced a PIN/chip system to VISA cards

Thailand, cash only.

[Serendipitist]

ATTN: mods

Please delete the reference to the name of any shop, by any poster.

Thank you.

[britmaveric]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

Most places on this planet now require a pin for a cc purchase - uh!

No they don't - never been asked once to use a pin, nor should you ever. If its an debit card yes, but never a credit card. Only a muppet enters a pin with a credit card.

[Serendipitist]

Uh why would you enter a pin for a credit card??? (unless doing a cash advance from an atm)

Most places on this planet now require a pin for a cc purchase - uh!

No they don't - never been asked once to use a pin, nor should you ever. If its an debit card yes, but never a credit card. Only a muppet enters a pin with a credit card.

Please try googling "chip and pin", or seeing the wikipedia entry on same. Residents of France, The Republic of Ireland, The UK are just some of those who would likely have a chip and pin on either their Mastercard or Visa. In such nations it's commonly used as a method for purchasing in shops *and* ATM usage. My old Mastercard bears a chip & pin, and so too my next one, and it's not unlikely that every one afterwards will too.

[britmaveric]

Have few UK bank accounts and no chip/pin mate.

[Serendipitist]

Have few UK bank accounts and no chip/pin mate.

http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/faqs/affect.html

!!!

[jonniebkk]

I think the main lesson to take away from this story, and all others like it, is not to use your credit card for minor purchases in Thailand. The risk of fraud is just too high and the hassles with dealing with a canceled card to great to take the risk. Myself, I have given-up using my CCs for any point of sale transactions in Thailand. I just use it to purchase goods over the internet or make hotel and airline reservations and things like that. For all other purchases, I use cash...with the ubiquity of ATM machines, there is really no reason to use a CC to make a purchase in LOS as you might in the West IMHO.

[mrtoad]

Had Chip and Pin for the last 3 years back in the UK, but never seen it here in Thailand. One can only assume that the little Gizmo that was used was one of those card readers.

[JSixpack]

You have been warned: So please don't let the same happen to you for “your added security”...

Isn't this typical? You post in a benevolent effort to help people and then you get a lot of flack returned.

I thought your post valuable and appropriate, for those who use credit cards.

But I would never use a credit card in Thailand. I recommend cash only, usually withdrawn from a nearby ATM. Watch that cash, too.

[chiang mai]

Have few UK bank accounts and no chip/pin mate.

Heads up Brit, early 2006 saw the cut over for chip and pin in the UK. There's a fair chance that if you do not have chip and pin cards now your UK cards will not be accepted in the UK.

[pumpuiman]

Interesting that the OP mentioned a wireless device being used.

I recently read an article about plucking credit card numbers from wireless devices.....apparently a worldwide problem of epidemic proportion.

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal (subscription required), the seeds of the nation's largest identity theft operation involving customers of TJX Companies (owners of TJ Maxx, Marshalls, and other discount stores) began in the parking lot outside a Marshalls discount clothing store in St. Paul, Minnesota. Criminal hackers, using a directional antenna, sat in their car and eavesdropped on wireless communications within the store. Over an unspecified period of time, the thieves were able to capture everything from the use of wireless handheld price-checking devices to wireless cash register transactions. But it was the wireless network for the store's main computers that ultimately allowed the criminal hackers into TJX. Once inside that network they were able to download millions of credit card numbers, some which have shown up on carder networks in eight different countries.

Supposed to be very easy to do with the right equipment, and does not have to be done from inside the store, only the vicinity of.

[cali4995]

I think the main lesson to take away from this story, and all others like it, is not to use your credit card for minor purchases in Thailand. The risk of fraud is just too high and the hassles with dealing with a canceled card to great to take the risk. Myself, I have given-up using my CCs for any point of sale transactions in Thailand. I just use it to purchase goods over the internet or make hotel and airline reservations and things like that. For all other purchases, I use cash...with the ubiquity of ATM machines, there is really no reason to use a CC to make a purchase in LOS as you might in the West IMHO.

And the winner is....jonniebkk. People know credit card fraud is rampant here. It's

insane to pull out your card for every little purchase you make but people still do.

[jonniebkk]

And the winner is....jonniebkk. People know credit card fraud is rampant here. It's

insane to pull out your card for every little purchase you make but people still do.

I am always amazed when I see people continue to use their CCs for grocery shopping at Foodland, Carrefore, etc. or for restaurant meals...both Thais and farangs. The only exception (and even then I keep my fingers crossed) is when I am purchasing expensive appliances or electronics (maybe around 20k on up) from reputable retailers...and even then, I check my account online carefully for a few weeks after the transaction to make sure no unauthorized charges appear (number has been stolen).

Another benefit too is that when you start to pay cash for everything, you think about your spending more carefully and usually end up spending less money

[onethailand]

I have used my credit cards all over Bangkok for the past 14 years. Restaurants, shopping malls, airlines, the works.

Not ONCE has any of these credit cards been used for unauthorized purchases. Needless to say, I am not worried about using my cards in Thailand - though obviously one should watch out for warning signs such as the one in the OP.

Having said that, I agree with jonniebkk - I always use my cash first and it always makes me more careful.