A Hypothesis:

[thedi]

A Hypothesis: Thai immigration unintentionally assimilates long stay farangs to Thai culture

There are several reports in this forum of farangs extending their visa, which follow this pattern:

1. Before going to immigration a farang gets all the informations and prepares the papers for his extension of stay. Quite a few actually overdo it and prepare more papers then would be required.
   
2. On the right day, he gets dressed in a clean shirt and goes to immigration. He is sure, that his case is absolutely clear and he expects to go through the process in a few minutes. Now, that everything is ready, it is merely a matter of form to get the actual extension stamp in his passport.
   So here he comes, very confident, and enters immigration with a friendly smile on his face...
   
3. An officer checks his documentation - not friendly at all - but very carefully and suspiciously. Then asks for an additional paper, which was never required before and which our farang did not bring along. The immigration officer orders him to get this additional paper.
   

In step 3, there are many variations, but they are all in the same way frustrating for the farang: he gets the feeling, that he has no rights here and that immigration officers can grant him an extension - or refuse it - at their whim. It makes him angry, uncertain and he feels that he is at the mercy of people who neither like him nor care for him. The very basis of his live is threatened - this is something he never expected to happen to him.

Now here is my hypothesis:

While our westener societies base on the principle that all men are equal, this is not true in Thailand: the Thai society is hierarchical.

A immigration officer is a high ranking person, while the farang is a applicant, hence he has a lower rank in the hierarchy.

A farang who enters the immigration office with a self-confident smile on the face, and approaches the immigration officer like a customer approaches a cars salesman in a Toyota showroom, dares unintentionally immigration officers. Hence the immigration officer puts him into his place, by showing his muscles.

What is your experience?

When going back mentally to your last visits to immigration, was there something that would discredit or support this hypothesis?

Regards

Thedi

[Mobi]

There may be some truth in what you say.

I would have thought that a "long stay farang" would not only know to dress appropriately, but also know that he must present himself in an appropriately humble (servile?) manner. He should wai in a subservient way, and the smile should be a nervous, half-smile rather than a confident, "I'm a clever farang" type smile.

Then.. just maybe... all will be well

[PhilHarries]

Interesting hypothesis. So the better approach is to dress tidily, but not too snappy, approach the official with a respectuful wai and an almost self sepreciating smile and present the exact paperwork required. In other words, don't come over as some cocky know it all.

That would mean that Thai immigration has attained the level of officialdom in the west. They are the boss in the dealings and the last thing they want is some Joe Soap showing they know more that the official.

[thedi]

the last thing they want is some Joe Soap showing they know more that the official.

If this hypothesis holds, this would certainly be true.

But an other interpretation could be, that they treat farang applicants like they would treat a Thai applicant.

Now - isn't this what long-stay farangs want: to be treated by the Thais like a Thai

Regards

Thedi

[camerata]

There is another aspect to this. The origin of the Thai bureacracy is one of people with prestige and power (originally with aristocrats and "noble families" at the top) rather than the Western idea of "we taxpayers pay their salary so they exist to serve us." And as one officer said publicly, "Immigration is an enforcement agency, not a service bureau."

Wherever possible, Thais will send a flunky to deal with lower level bureacrats, so it's no big deal if they have to run around getting correct paperwork of wait for hours to see someone. It's a relatively new situation for government employees to deal directly with non-flunkies of a higher status (eg. a farang company manager), who don't act like flunkies and who don't speak Thai. It's not surprising they don't feel comfortable. The strange counter arrangement at Suan Phlu Immigration ground floor seems to reflect this. Visitors have to bend double to speak through a slot in the glass screen that is at head-height for the officer sitting behind it. Before it moved upstairs, the Permanent Residence counter was the only one that didn't have a glass screen.

This was a lot more obvious in the early 80s when Immigration, the work permit section of the Interior Ministry and the Revenue Dept's tax clearance office were all full of Thai agents and fixers helping the farang through the process. Obtaining the much-reviled tax clearance certificate even required a Thai guarantor and agents offering this service for 200 baht would hang around the entrance to the building. Things have improved a lot since then but I don't think we'll ever see a Western-style bureacracy.

[Tywais]

A immigration officer is a high ranking person, while the farang is a applicant, hence he has a lower rank in the hierarchy.

Just a slight disagreement with that and probably depends on the office. It also depends on the farang in some instances I would say. Such as in my case they've known me for several years and know that I'm an ajarn at a major university (plus I'm older then most ). It seems to show in their attitude toward me and find them generally polite and respectful. Of course I go in my 'work clothes' which is always a dress shirt and dress slacks to reflect my position. I'm sure many will disagree, it's just my experience.

[grtaylor]

But an other interpretation could be, that they treat farang applicants like they would treat a Thai applicant.

Now - isn't this what long-stay farangs want: to be treated by the Thais like a Thai

Interesting thought! We complain sometimes about our treatment by officialdom. Thais don't generally complain about it. Maybe we're actually both being treated the same? We complain, however, because things aren't working as they do "back home", whereas the Thais don't complain because this is the way it is, always has been, and probably always will be!

Graham

Edited December 31, 2007 by grtaylor

[Mobi]

A immigration officer is a high ranking person, while the farang is a applicant, hence he has a lower rank in the hierarchy.

Just a slight disagreement with that and probably depends on the office. It also depends on the farang in some instances I would say. Such as in my case they've known me for several years and know that I'm an ajarn at a major university (plus I'm older then most ). It seems to show in their attitude toward me and find them generally polite and respectful. Of course I go in my 'work clothes' which is always a dress shirt and dress slacks to reflect my position. I'm sure many will disagree, it's just my experience.

I'm sure that your experience is in keeping with your age, position, and most importantly, the fact that they know you.

For those of us who have to renew our extensions in places such as Pattaya, it behoves us to be particularly careful how we behave and present ourselves, as unfortunately, there are still many, inappropriately dressed farangs with questionable manners who attend that office every day, and probably make it harder for the rest of us

[Ricardo]

Perhaps it might help, to delay using the Grecian-2000 hair-dye, until after the visit ? Or even to dye one's hair silver (I don't use the word 'grey') beforehand ?

[bumbui]

What additional paper you are talking about???????????? you are the the problem not the immigration !!!!!!!!

[didivolk]

There may be some truth in what you say.

I would have thought that a "long stay farang" would not only know to dress appropriately, but also know that he must present himself in an appropriately humble (servile?) manner. He should wai in a subservient way, and the smile should be a nervous, half-smile rather than a confident, "I'm a clever farang" type smile.

Then.. just maybe... all will be well

I always went with my wife (Thai) casual but proper dressed, with the required papers. (BKK Immigration) Smiled friendly to the officers with a wei which recognized my smile with a smile and a wei back. They know us since many years. This year I didn't go because of a bad hips condition (hospital certificate). It took my wife maybe ten minutes, that what it took us before ( between fife and twenty minutes). Actually it's easier now, before you had to come back after about 30 days. Not now.

I would like the German Immigration office (Ausländeramt) as friendly and efficient as the BKK immigrations. My British brother in law feels the same about the British counterpart. Even I had also never serious problems there too.

We have a word: how you shout into the wood , it shouts back to you.

Didi

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm a retired bureaucrat, not that they know that. I've been an ajarn in their schools, and they don't know that. I'm just one of the better dressed and better behaved farang who politely wai them and give them what they ask. An unnecessary bank statement? You betcha Bob, I was back with it, about 40 minutes later. Sign this? Yes, sir. I think I know my place here. I'm not a necessity here; they can do without me. Glad to be here, thank you.

I got real tense about this in September, but when October came, I got my renewal lickety-split, no problem. And the day they don't renew it, I know two more countries I can live in, just as cheaply. I pity you folks who are stuck here. You are at the mercy of the Immigration Gods.

[nidge]

When i go to immigration i take my baby with me. He gets things done soooo quickly. I still have the problems with the 'missing' piece of paper but i rarely have to queue. My son is passed carried around the office by one of the female officers and my application is dealt with quickly. In a couple of years i guess my son will have less of an influence so it will be time to try for a baby girl.

[Guest]

Hypothesis in three parts; I would agree with parts 1 & 2. Its a very good idea to good overprepared and reasonably dressed - two things I always do.

However, Part three is a personal experience. I've never come across rude immigration officers either at the airport or a Suan Plu (they are not our buddies so friendly is not what to expect). I can't speak for other offices. I am always careful to be polite and remain calm, and I've always had that given back. On the odd occasion I was asked for extra photocopies of something, they waited for me to do that before continuing with the application. Once an officer made a joke (to make a point) that I must present new photos at every application (I'm talking retirement renewals here), but didn't send me away when I produced last years again. But I remembered next time as she could have rightfully turned me away until I had a fresh picture.

Our own attitude can be read by those officials, and if you can speak (some) Thai it makes a big difference in their attitude to you too. We must always keep our cool, even when we think some officials are just being difficult. Don't forget they deal with hundreds of people every day, day in and day out, and they are human too - and they have to follow the rules set by their bosses.

[PhilHarries]

Don't forget they deal with hundreds of people every day, day in and day out, and they are human too - and they have to follow the rules set by their bosses.

Good point and don't forget that some of those people may not be as polite, respectful and prepared as we perceive ourselves to be.

[thedi]

Thanks for all the replies and attention, but I would really like to get some opinons to my hypothesis

1. Before going to immigration a farang gets all the informations and prepares the papers for his extension of stay. Quite a few actually overdo it and prepare more papers then would be required.
   
2. On the right day, he gets dressed in a clean shirt and goes to immigration. He is sure, that his case is absolutely clear and he expects to go through the process in a few minutes. Now, that everything is ready, it is merely a matter of form to get the actual extension stamp in his passport.
   So here he comes, very confident, and enters immigration with a friendly smile on his face...
   
3. An officer checks his documentation - not friendly at all - but very carefully and suspiciously. Then asks for an additional paper, which was never required before and which our farang did not bring along. The immigration officer orders him to get this additional paper.
   

In step 3, there are many variations. He may be asked to get a newer photo or anything. But it is always frustrating for the farang: he gets the feeling, that he has no rights here and that immigration officers can grant him an extension - or refuse it - at their whim. It makes him angry, uncertain and he feels that he is at the mercy of people who neither like him nor care for him. The very basis of his live is threatened - this is something he never expected to happen to him.

While our westener societies base on the principle that all men are equal, this is not true in Thailand: the Thai society is hierarchical. A immigration officer is a high ranking person, while the farang is a applicant, hence he has a lower rank in the hierarchy.

Here is the Hypothesis:

A farang who enters an immigration office with a self-confident smile on his face, and approaches the immigration officer like a business partner, dares unintentionally the immigration officers. Hence, the immigration officer may put him into his place, by showing his muscles.

The above story is just an illustration...

What are your experiences?

Please go back mentally to your last visits to immigration: was there something that would discredit or support this hypothesis?

Regards

Thedi

[abdulrahman]

Thanks for all the replies and attention, but I would really like to get some opinons to my hypothesis

1. Before going to immigration a farang gets all the informations and prepares the papers for his extension of stay. Quite a few actually overdo it and prepare more papers then would be required.
   
2. On the right day, he gets dressed in a clean shirt and goes to immigration. He is sure, that his case is absolutely clear and he expects to go through the process in a few minutes. Now, that everything is ready, it is merely a matter of form to get the actual extension stamp in his passport.
   So here he comes, very confident, and enters immigration with a friendly smile on his face...
   
3. An officer checks his documentation - not friendly at all - but very carefully and suspiciously. Then asks for an additional paper, which was never required before and which our farang did not bring along. The immigration officer orders him to get this additional paper.
   

In step 3, there are many variations. He may be asked to get a newer photo or anything. But it is always frustrating for the farang: he gets the feeling, that he has no rights here and that immigration officers can grant him an extension - or refuse it - at their whim. It makes him angry, uncertain and he feels that he is at the mercy of people who neither like him nor care for him. The very basis of his live is threatened - this is something he never expected to happen to him.

While our westener societies base on the principle that all men are equal, this is not true in Thailand: the Thai society is hierarchical. A immigration officer is a high ranking person, while the farang is a applicant, hence he has a lower rank in the hierarchy.

Here is the Hypothesis:

A farang who enters an immigration office with a self-confident smile on his face, and approaches the immigration officer like a business partner, dares unintentionally the immigration officers. Hence, the immigration officer may put him into his place, by showing his muscles.

The above story is just an illustration...

What are your experiences?

Please go back mentally to your last visits to immigration: was there something that would discredit or support this hypothesis?

Regards

Thedi

It's not an hypothesys,it's real.Sometimes I think the Immi Officer would be happy to find any excuse for making the Farang uncomfortable,to show to him(and the other in line)that He/She has the power to accept or refuse his application.

For what I understand it's the (in)famous" showing face"that all Thais have so dear.

Luckily,for me,when they tend to exaggerate,my wife will intervene.She doesn't like to lose face either!

I don't go to Bangkok,but to the NongKhai Office,things may be different elsewhere;or,maybe,after many years they will try to accept the long-stay Farang.

No T.i.T.,slow to change the attitude!

[JetsetBkk]

I go wearing a short-sleeved shirt, no tie, shorts, and Adda flip-flops . Never had a problem - unless you count not signing a photocopied page of my passport a problem.

I don't act cocky, nervous or over-confident. And I don't wai anybody - just look for wherever the "extensions" counter is currently located, nod and smile to whoever is there, and go to him. This guy checks the papers, passes them to the boss who double-checks them and passes them back for him to do all the stamps. It usually takes 10 to 15 minutes.

I am determined to get it done even quicker next year - I'll try to remember to time it.

[thedi]

Sometimes I think the Immi Officer would be happy to find any excuse for making the Farang uncomfortable,to show to him(and the other in line)that He/She has the power to accept or refuse his application...

I don't go to Bangkok,but to the NongKhai Office...

Nong Khai is different. lets ignore this office, its a 'statistical blib' (outlier)

Regards

Thedi

[nidge]

I go wearing a short-sleeved shirt, no tie, shorts, and Adda flip-flops . Never had a problem - unless you count not signing a photocopied page of my passport a problem.

I don't act cocky, nervous or over-confident. And I don't wai anybody - just look for wherever the "extensions" counter is currently located, nod and smile to whoever is there, and go to him. This guy checks the papers, passes them to the boss who double-checks them and passes them back for him to do all the stamps. It usually takes 10 to 15 minutes.

I am determined to get it done even quicker next year - I'll try to remember to time it.

But just look at your avatar. I'd give you a visa too, you're scary!

[jstumbo]

A Hypothesis: Thai immigration unintentionally assimilates long stay farangs to Thai culture

There are several reports in this forum of farangs extending their visa, which follow this pattern:

1. Before going to immigration a farang gets all the informations and prepares the papers for his extension of stay. Quite a few actually overdo it and prepare more papers then would be required.
   
2. On the right day, he gets dressed in a clean shirt and goes to immigration. He is sure, that his case is absolutely clear and he expects to go through the process in a few minutes. Now, that everything is ready, it is merely a matter of form to get the actual extension stamp in his passport.
   So here he comes, very confident, and enters immigration with a friendly smile on his face...
   
3. An officer checks his documentation - not friendly at all - but very carefully and suspiciously. Then asks for an additional paper, which was never required before and which our farang did not bring along. The immigration officer orders him to get this additional paper.
   

You forgot:

4. Farang gets additional documentation, returns to the immigration office just to have the new immigration officer toss it aside and say that it is not required.

Edited January 1, 2008 by jstumbo

[gdhm]

...I'm just one of the better dressed and better behaved farang who politely wai them and give them what they ask. An unnecessary bank statement? You betcha Bob, I was back with it, about 40 minutes later. Sign this? Yes, sir. I think I know my place here. I'm not a necessity here; they can do without me. Glad to be here, thank you.

I assume Peaceblondie that you live reasonably close to your 'local" (40mins home and back) so getting an extra piece of paper may be only a minor irritation.

Unfortunately, many do not live very close and for those like myself in Khon Kaen City for example, an unnecessary bank statement means a 6 hour round trip. 2 trips taking up 12 hours travelling alone. If you are unfortunate to have to use the train (it is not a pleasant experience).

Of course we will do the same as you if we have any sense but it is hard to find any goodwill feelings if indeed the requirement was outside the official needs of Immigration.

Speaking personally I strongly suspect my wife and stepson consider me a necessity here ( I hope so anyway) and you too are probably more of a necessity here than you think Peaceblondie.

Kind Regards

Dave

Edited January 1, 2008 by gdhm

[PeaceBlondie]

gdhm, you make a good point. I live around the aircorner (that is, the entire airport) from the office and it's a pleasant, short drive. The 40 minutes was to the bank and back during noon rush hour; easy.

Yes, your Thai family and your friends in Thailand think you're a necessity, but the Immigration Police know we're not needed here. As a retired bureaucrat, the last 20 years of being a powerful flunky were kind of stale, and I didn't get cranky unless a real jerk insisted on telling me how (not) to do my job. I doubt the Thai officers are constantly trying to defend their face; I'll bet they're mostly trying to get through the day so they can get off work and relax.

[pointofview]

the last thing they want is some Joe Soap showing they know more that the official.

If this hypothesis holds, this would certainly be true.

But an other interpretation could be, that they treat farang applicants like they would treat a Thai applicant.

Now - isn't this what long-stay farangs want: to be treated by the Thais like a Thai

Regards

Thedi

You miss the point my son!

[yorkman]

Sometimes I think the Immi Officer would be happy to find any excuse for making the Farang uncomfortable,to show to him(and the other in line)that He/She has the power to accept or refuse his application...

I don't go to Bangkok,but to the NongKhai Office...

Nong Khai is different. lets ignore this office, its a 'statistical blib' (outlier)

Regards

Thedi

Really? Why? Because if it is, it really undoes your whole hypothesis charecterising all Thais as a homogenous robots who react to everything because of "culture".

Let me offer an alternative hypothesis if I may......

They are underpaid and overworked government officials who just want to get on with their work, finish their day and p**s off home.

They have to deal with the great unwashed day in and day out, as do all public facing government officials around the world.

A farang walking up to them with a big grin on his/her face, or who approaches them with a wai (ever see a Thai do this in a government office?) just gives them the opportunity for a bit of fun in their otherwise dull day.

They can go home to Somchai or Nok, and conversationally over the evening meal say "Hey, you know, I had this Swiss guy in today, it was so funny, this is what happened......................."

[moe666]

When my passport was stolen several years ago I would say that my treatment at Thai Immigration was friendlier and more courteous than at the U.S. Embassy.

[PeaceBlondie]

When I lost my passport, the US embassy in BKK was great, both the American and Thai employees. But I try to play their game, be alert, be well dressed, not tell them my life story, answer their questions directly. Same when I was on the other side of the counter. Who remembers Sgt. Friday on the "Dragnet" TV detective show, telling the lady, "Just the facts, Ma'm"?

A bureaucrat who's more than a file clerk, and who actually makes decisions, has a checklist of things to approve: Form 37A, proper color photo size, signatures, Form 428(a)(ii), in accordance with Regulation 389(a)(3)(iii) as revised, and remembering that the boss's boss doesn't like anything in green ink except on Form 28. They're not looking at your wife's bra size, or your nose size; they don't care where you eat food, they just want to get this job finished quickly. And if that means sending you home to get the form you obviously missed, and that means he can have a full lunch break, so be it.

[gdhm]

gdhm, you make a good point. I live around the aircorner (that is, the entire airport) from the office and it's a pleasant, short drive. The 40 minutes was to the bank and back during noon rush hour; easy.

Yes, your Thai family and your friends in Thailand think you're a necessity, but the Immigration Police know we're not needed here. As a retired bureaucrat, the last 20 years of being a powerful flunky were kind of stale, and I didn't get cranky unless a real jerk insisted on telling me how (not) to do my job. I doubt the Thai officers are constantly trying to defend their face; I'll bet they're mostly trying to get through the day so they can get off work and relax.

Yes I agree with you PeaceBlondie.

What I meant by necessity to wife and family was financial. I do not consider my important to my wife and family is only financial but at the end of the day from Thailand's social and economical point of view (even if we are small in number - it all adds up and is I believe increasing ). Most Farangs by luck of birth location have more money than Thais. This means there are lots of Thai families (not only spouse/children in many cases) who are no longer struggling, many now do not go to add to the over loading of the Public hospitals, shops are able to sell more items, builders more houses and employ more workers,

OK so it is "spit in the Ocean" I accept this, but as I said it all adds up and "from acorns oak trees grow" . Provided the Foreigner complies with the Laws of the Land and is a good citizen then he/she is often on balance an asset to Thailand for many reasons and NOT a negative.

I as a office "pen pusher" all my working life with no exceptional skills to do anything else more interesting, often felt the same way.

I do however believe how you treat clients is 2 fold

1) from the top and

2) How you personally are as a person.

I appreciate there are some real arrogant <deleted> that all "face the public" workers must meet but they ALONE should get appropriate responses. With my job of 26 years we were told no matter what the public said we must remain calm and polite unless they were aggressive or abusive -event then we must disengage as diplomatically as feasible depending on the circumstances. I'm sure you know the patter PeaceBlondie, "You know the patter "sir if you are going to continue to be offensive (aggressive) then I regret I am going to end this discussion".

As retired bureaucrat I am sure you had to smile, be pleasant and "bite you tongue" a million times and so must most "face the public workers" NO, they not should have to put up with crap thrown at them and smile and be friendly, but I also do not feel SOME Thai Immigration Officers have a cultural right to dish it out to all and sundry (I know of one office with a very bad reputation).

Moving on to other views:

We are often reminded this is Thailand and told about Thai culture. What happened to Thai respect and politeness - as a victim on one occasion out of 2 Visa renewals I do not hold with other writers views that as Immigration Officers are underpaid, overworked that explains poor manner to non offensive Visa seekers.

If Immigration Offices are so overworked then maybe one or 2 offices should go back to accepting 90 Postal Reporting they have unilaterally decided to refuse. I am sure dealing in person takes much longer and is much more demoralising seeing a much longer line of visitors each day as a result (some probably equally pissed off with making many hours round trips every 90 days just to confirm the same address each time).

I regret the apologists who support reasons for Immigration poor behaviour toward Visa seekers where the Visa seekers is not provoking them in any way.

I suggest to those people, do you think the Immigration Officers are the ONLY underpaid and over worked Thais. There are millions in Thailand. I am not saying immigration officers are not overworked or underpaid compared to other equivalent jobs (I do not know) but I am certain Immigration Officers are in a lot better situation than MOST working in the North East and many parts of Thailand.

My wife's Aunt worked as a Head Cook in a restaurant 11am to 3am 7 days a week one day off a month for 7,500 baht and she is always pleasant. Her cousin cleans apartment blocks all day 7 days a week - occasional off days upon request (earns 3,500 baht I know many others in different jobs on half those wages that and they are all still respectful and polite in their work (most are friendly).

For those who suggest their Embassies are worse, that is regrettable but I have to ask what that has got to do with Thai Immigration Offices? Two wrongs do not make a right. It reminds me of my House Builder in Spain. When I asked why I had the worst built house on the Urbanisation the reply was. "Oh No Mr. XXX don't you worry, I promise you someone else's is much worse than yours". Must admit I was so surprised by the reply I started laughing - lucky for them I have a sense of humour)

My final comment that in my opinion disproves the overworked and underpaid justification/explanation theory.

Why do some Immigration Offices (like Korat) have such a great reputation, whilst others like Nong Khai have an appalling one? They are on same pay structures, have the same work and the same quality of the Visa seekers I am sure.

Korat are not popular because they are any more lenient than other offices -they demand all necessary requirements, as they should.

Korat is popular because they carry out their duties in a professional, pleasant and consistent manner . They ask for what they need nothing more, nothing less , they are NOT pedantic and it is a pleasure to deal with them. They also answer the phone quickly and they answer you questions as best they can.

I take this opportunity to wish all Members

A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR 2008 / 2551

Regards

Dave

[jamesthefirst]

There may be some truth in what you say.

I would have thought that a "long stay farang" would not only know to dress appropriately, but also know that he must present himself in an appropriately humble (servile?) manner. He should wai in a subservient way, and the smile should be a nervous, half-smile rather than a confident, "I'm a clever farang" type smile.

Then.. just maybe... all will be well

I totally agree.

Wais go down a treat, and I've often found in Immigration that they are not expected by the farang, so when one does occur it's usually met with a slight, just a slight mind, shocked expression and the wai will always be returned, thus breaking down that initial massive barrier.

I also agree that the nervous smile works a treat, as opposed to the over confident one. Put it across that you're the type of farang who should be felt sorry for and helped as opposed to the one who should be denied a visa, or told to go and get another form.

Edited January 2, 2008 by jamesthefirst

[JetsetBkk]

But just look at your avatar. I'd give you a visa too, you're scary!

Yes, sorry about that. I must say though, you look rather cute - I bet your dad's proud of you!